Loss of salvation???

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I know you from a different Forum...
which you have not been back to for a long time.
We don't have to agree on theological issues...
we just have to be nice to each other,
as Jesus would want.
Hell no!

Jesus would have us to mark such divisive believers and avoid them.
Consistent contrary theological conclusions are symptomatic of a deeper reality at work.

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them.
You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful;
they are self-condemned."
Titus 3:10-11
 
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Do you know what that was even about?

Jewish believers were continuing animal sacrifices in the Temple for their sins!
They knew too much to not know better.
They were just as bad as Catholics who refuse to give up Mary Worship.
All emotionalism.

The writer of Hebrews was warning sincere believers to stop wasting their time trying to convince those committing the blasphemy
to stop. "Leave them be. You move on and continue in maturing in Christ!"

But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation,
though, we speak in this manner.
Hebrews 6:9


grace and peace ..........

The folly of removing verses from their context.

Where did we see that before, oh yeah. :unsure::)
 
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Hell no!

Jesus would have us to mark such divisive believers and avoid them.
Consistent contrary theological conclusions are symptomatic of a deeper reality at work.

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them.
You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful;
they are self-condemned."
Titus 3:10-11

Perhaps someone believed that the third time round would be the charm for their false doctrine. :unsure:
 
I know you from a different Forum...
which you have not been back to for a long time.
We don't have to agree on theological issues...
we just have to be nice to each other,
as Jesus would want.


Some people are so in love with themselves that they take pride in winning over others based upon their human appeal.

That was what Satan did in regard to winning over angels away from the Lord..

A superiority complex is a terrible ball and chain when entering into the Christian way of life.
 
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If ""tasting,"" ""enlightened,"" & ""knowledge"" mean salvation, then why does Hebrews 10:14 say ""Christ has perfected forever those who are sanctified""? Is the writer contradicting himself in the same book?

So, we have an selected translation of Heb10:14 being set up as the premise for Heb6. What if we look at other translations and in fairness look at other possibilities:

NKJ Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
  • Note the perfect tense Christ "has perfected"
    • This is His work on the cross - it applies to those identified in the next clause.
  • Note the continuous sense of the present tense passive participle - those who are being sanctified. So now we have some options to consider
    • Those who are coming to Christ?
    • Those who are being developed in Christ?
    • Both?
  • So, what is the actual premise:
    • Jesus on the cross perfected forever:
      • Those who come to Him?
      • Those who are being developed in Him?
      • Those who come to Him and are being developed in Him (also assumed just above)
      • Those who come to Christ but choose to walk away?
        • Which may need to be considered in Heb6
Heb6:3-9 And this we will do if God permits.
  • Looks like God may or may not permit repentance if one wanders from or is not progressing properly as He may determine in the growth process (previous context)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
  • This is the core of the disagreement - are these people "saved" - whatever this means per the Text:
    • Were they sanctified?
    • Were they being sanctified in Christ?
  • "once enlightened" - how does Hebrews treat this word & concept?
    • NKJ Heb10:28-39 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated/enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
      • Does being illuminated/enlightened seem like Hebrews uses it to speak of believers or pseudo-believers - not yet believers?
        • They endure sufferings
        • They knew they had a better and enduring possession in Heaven
        • They are commanded not to throw away/reject/get rid of their confidence which has great recompense/wages (like the enduring possession in Heaven just mentioned)
          • The explanation for the command - you need endurance > you do God's will > you receive the promise (stay in context - enduring possession in Heaven - wages)
            • The explanation for the need of endurance... - He is coming
              • The wrap-up:
                • The righteous ones will live from faith
                  • Please note the context of faith and commands - this is living in continuing faith-obedience
                • If anyone draws back/withdraws [himself - middle voice]
                  • IF = maybe he will and maybe he won't
                  • Then My soul has no pleasure in him/does not consider him as good and worthy of choice
                  • They are withdrawing themselves from living from faith
            • The encouragement:
              • We are not timid [men] into/for destruction
                • The ones who don't endure and withdraw themselves whom the Lord does not consider good or worthy
              • We are [men of] faith into/for preservation/acquisition of soul
                • Only gained by endurance and not rejecting confidence
  • they tasted God's good [spoken] word
    • NKJ Heb2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
      • Does this sound like taking a little taste but not consuming - or being consumed by the experience?
        • Jesus wasn't consumed by death?
        • The phrase "taste death" in Scripture doesn't mean to die?
        • Jesus wasn't buried and put in a tomb for a time sufficient to be deemed "dead"?
        • Jesus didn't experience death?
        • Jesus didn't have to die for our sins?
        • Jesus didn't taste what it was like to have God forsake/abandon/separate connection from Him?
    • NKJ Heb6:4b and (te) have tasted the heavenly gift, and (kai) have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
      • It looks to me that the grammar is closely linking tasting the heavenly gift and becoming sharers/companions/partners of Holy Spirit
    • NKJ Heb6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come
      • They got a taste of the good [spoken] word of God
      • They got a taste of the powers of the age about to be
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
  • I think the falling away/committing apostasy was well-described in Heb10:28-29 above
    • It's impossible to renew/restore the timid des to repentance again - they are crucifying again and putting to shame/publicly disgracing the Son of God
  • The "if" here is interpretation from a participle
    • The actual grammar is tying all of these things about these men very tightly together:
      • It is impossible for men who:
        • Were once/once for all enlightened
        • And likewise tasted the heavenly gift
        • And/Namely became sharers of Holy Spirit
        • And tasted of God's good [spoken] word
        • And/Namely of powers of [an] age about to be
        • And fall away/committed apostasy
      • to renew/restore them again to repentance...
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
  • Seems simple:
    • God provides the rain - in context seen just above in the list of what God provided
      • Produce something useable/well-suited for something - and receive blessing
      • Produce something (literally worthless/of no value) - and near a curse which ends in burning
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
  • In Heb5:9 'salvation' if for those who obey Jesus Christ - our High Priest King
  • Then Heb5:10-6:2 the author goes into concepts of growth to maturity/perfection vs. rebuking some for remaining in infancy
  • Then in Heb6:3 essentially comes a warning - repentance (in context from your laziness in advance to maturity through learning)
    • In this context Hebrews is elaborating where this laziness goes and it is being watched by God who apparently at some point absolutely may or may not permit our advance.
    • The conditional clause here is intensified for us to take intent and strict notice - no games here lazy ones
    • This behavior can lead to the downfall/apostasy that Hebrews explains
    • Heb10 IMO makes very clear that this warning in Heb6 is no game and is being spoken to believers who need to endure the process.
  • The salvation Hebrews talks about in Heb6:9 ties back to the spiritual growth to maturity/perfection - no laziness - no falling away - no timidity in enduring, etc.
How anyone can say we're not involved in our salvation process and not working to accomplish our salvation in fear and trembling when God is actively working in us providing His capacities to us so we will desire and work what pleases Him (Phil2:12-13 cf. all this in Hebrews) vs. doing what will cause Him to see us as not good or worthy and not permitting our repentance for laziness and what may come from it is troubling to say the minimum.

Watch out for the theological system expressed in what this is answering.

If anything, let's discuss Scriptures more thoroughly. If I err, let's discuss.
 
Sin is destructive and God hates is, but I see no where where is causes a person to loose their status of JUSTFIED!

You are basically asserting that the cross/resurrection did not settle the sin problem.

Actually, that last sentence is not at all what I'm asserting and is the opposite of what I assert.
 
So, we have an selected translation of Heb10:14 being set up as the premise for Heb6. What if we look at other translations and in fairness look at other possibilities:

NKJ Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
  • Note the perfect tense Christ "has perfected"
    • This is His work on the cross - it applies to those identified in the next clause.
  • Note the continuous sense of the present tense passive participle - those who are being sanctified. So now we have some options to consider
    • Those who are coming to Christ?
    • Those who are being developed in Christ?
    • Both?
  • So, what is the actual premise:
    • Jesus on the cross perfected forever:
      • Those who come to Him?
      • Those who are being developed in Him?
      • Those who come to Him and are being developed in Him (also assumed just above)
      • Those who come to Christ but choose to walk away?
        • Which may need to be considered in Heb6
Heb6:3-9 And this we will do if God permits.
  • Looks like God may or may not permit repentance if one wanders from or is not progressing properly as He may determine in the growth process (previous context)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
  • This is the core of the disagreement - are these people "saved" - whatever this means per the Text:
    • Were they sanctified?
    • Were they being sanctified in Christ?
  • "once enlightened" - how does Hebrews treat this word & concept?
    • NKJ Heb10:28-39 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated/enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
      • Does being illuminated/enlightened seem like Hebrews uses it to speak of believers or pseudo-believers - not yet believers?
        • They endure sufferings
        • They knew they had a better and enduring possession in Heaven
        • They are commanded not to throw away/reject/get rid of their confidence which has great recompense/wages (like the enduring possession in Heaven just mentioned)
          • The explanation for the command - you need endurance > you do God's will > you receive the promise (stay in context - enduring possession in Heaven - wages)
            • The explanation for the need of endurance... - He is coming
              • The wrap-up:
                • The righteous ones will live from faith
                  • Please note the context of faith and commands - this is living in continuing faith-obedience
                • If anyone draws back/withdraws [himself - middle voice]
                  • IF = maybe he will and maybe he won't
                  • Then My soul has no pleasure in him/does not consider him as good and worthy of choice
                  • They are withdrawing themselves from living from faith
            • The encouragement:
              • We are not timid [men] into/for destruction
                • The ones who don't endure and withdraw themselves whom the Lord does not consider good or worthy
              • We are [men of] faith into/for preservation/acquisition of soul
                • Only gained by endurance and not rejecting confidence
  • they tasted God's good [spoken] word
    • NKJ Heb2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
      • Does this sound like taking a little taste but not consuming - or being consumed by the experience?
        • Jesus wasn't consumed by death?
        • The phrase "taste death" in Scripture doesn't mean to die?
        • Jesus wasn't buried and put in a tomb for a time sufficient to be deemed "dead"?
        • Jesus didn't experience death?
        • Jesus didn't have to die for our sins?
        • Jesus didn't taste what it was like to have God forsake/abandon/separate connection from Him?
    • NKJ Heb6:4b and (te) have tastedthe heavenly gift, and (kai) have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
      • It looks to me that the grammar is closely linking tasting the heavenly gift and becoming sharers/companions/partners of Holy Spirit
    • NKJ Heb6:5 and have tastedthe good word of God and the powers of the age to come
      • They got a taste of the good [spoken] word of God
      • They got a taste of the powers of the age about to be
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
  • I think the falling away/committing apostasy was well-described in Heb10:28-29 above
    • It's impossible to renew/restore the timid des to repentance again - they are crucifying again and putting to shame/publicly disgracing the Son of God
  • The "if" here is interpretation from a participle
    • The actual grammar is tying all of these things about these men very tightly together:
      • It is impossible for men who:
        • Were once/once for all enlightened
        • And likewise tasted the heavenly gift
        • And/Namely became sharers of Holy Spirit
        • And tasted of God's good [spoken] word
        • And/Namely of powers of [an] age about to be
        • And fall away/committed apostasy
      • to renew/restore them again to repentance...
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
  • Seems simple:
    • God provides the rain - in context seen just above in the list of what God provided
      • Produce something useable/well-suited for something - and receive blessing
      • Produce something (literally worthless/of no value) - and near a curse which ends in burning
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
  • In Heb5:9 'salvation' if for those who obey Jesus Christ - our High Priest King
  • Then Heb5:10-6:2 the author goes into concepts of growth to maturity/perfection vs. rebuking some for remaining in infancy
  • Then in Heb6:3 essentially comes a warning - repentance (in context from your laziness in advance to maturity through learning)
    • In this context Hebrews is elaborating where this laziness goes and it is being watched by God who apparently at some point absolutely may or may not permit our advance.
    • The conditional clause here is intensified for us to take intent and strict notice - no games here lazy ones
    • This behavior can lead to the downfall/apostasy that Hebrews explains
    • Heb10 IMO makes very clear that this warning in Heb6 is no game and is being spoken to believers who need to endure the process.
  • The salvation Hebrews talks about in Heb6:9 ties back to the spiritual growth to maturity/perfection - no laziness - no falling away - no timidity in enduring, etc.
How anyone can say we're not involved in our salvation process and not working to accomplish our salvation in fear and trembling when God is actively working in us providing His capacities to us so we will desire and work what pleases Him (Phil2:12-13 cf. all this in Hebrews) vs. doing what will cause Him to see us as not good or worthy and not permitting our repentance for laziness and what may come from it is troubling to say the minimum.

Watch out for the theological system expressed in what this is answering.

If anything, let's discuss Scriptures more thoroughly. If I err, let's discuss.
Who is going to want to read all that?

You are only impressing yourself.
 
Bayesian reasoning is useful when dealing with uncertain data, but Scripture doesn't present the gospel as a probability distribution.

Jude says the faith was ""once for all delivered,"" Paul says we are to ""hold fast the pattern of sound words,"" & Peter says Scripture is not open to private interpretation.

The Early Church Fathers are valuable historically, but they are not the standard. The apostolic writings are & redefining faith to include obedience collapses the very distinction Paul makes when he says God justifies ""the one who does not work but believes.""

Humility is good, but humility doesn't mean perpetual theological instability; it means submitting our categories to the Text, not reshaping the Text to fit our categories.

There's much more to it than that, which is why I stated it in simple form of constantly reevaluating what we think we know when we encounter new data.
 
This is pretty clear:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭4‬-‭6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened, which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and you can't always tell them apart at first.
 
Who is going to want to read all that?

You are only impressing yourself.

We'll see. Do you sit through hours or days of teaching one verse of Scripture because you value your teacher or God's Word.

What's not impressive to some of us is the bantering and proof-texting of regurgitated teaching filtered though the minds of listeners.

One would think by now that you'd know that actually going through Scripture is a not a simple task. One would also think that since part of such a post is dealing with Scripture pertinent to the maturing you claim, that it might peak your interest and that you might even have something pertinent to say. Take it in little bites and deal with the Text.
 
Here is another puzzle piece to consider. In the slogan OSAS (once saved always saved) when is a person "saved"? How we answer this question will color our understanding. Are we saved when we respond to an altar call? Maybe we are saved at our Baptism instead? Or maybe we are saved after the Lord returns? What does the Bible say?

Maybe we are saved the moment we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart? That sounds Biblical. But Paul also says we are BEING saved by grace through faith. That sounds like salvation is a future hope. What do you think?
Would a man drowning in the ocean in a hurricane be saved when he was lifted into the boat or when the boat brought him back to land? Would the whole process count as being saved once or twice? I guess he could fall back out the boat but a good captain would turn around again to pick him up again. Maybe he gets save 3 times. What happens if he doesn’t grab the lifeline?

Is salvation a process, a moment, or multiple moments?
 
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