Loss of salvation???
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I added you two questions, so
could you clarify.
Do you believe a person can lose there salvation
Ok so then that means whom the lord saves is not free then and the price he was bought for was worthless , ok Got it thanks.
The question was can a person lose there salvation, you answered yes
Tell me how a person doesn't show fruits being given the fruits of the spirit.
Are the fruits not affective or something ? Poisoned perhaps.
Maybe your thinking once your given the fruits you can regurgitate then like you would eating a normal fruit.
I wonder in your imagination does God rip out the new heart of flesh as well.
Fruit is grown, not given. A garden that is not weeded will be choked out and won't bear fruit. Read the parable of the 4 soils
Nope the Scriptures say the fruits are a gift.
That was a solid reply by you.
Especially Matthew 15:24; most Christians in the world do not realize Jesus was sent only to
Israel. And the Gentiles were grafted into Christ some time later.
This warps their understanding of the role of the law.
That's before your saved, and the reason you can cooperate is because the nature which you can't fully understand tests the heart in fire, you know, the fathers devine nature, his light, you know the light that gives power to cooperate.
But by your faith living hope doesn't exist much, you know the living hope in which you where saved,
The gifts of the fruit are given and they bare fruit, where as your saying once there given if you don't cooperate they don't grow, right so you have power the to stop God's devine nature.
Well sorry but you don't
If you believe it's so simplistically terrible, then disprove it.
Matthew 24:15-17
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Now, Jesus was clearly speaking of the tribulation period to Israel, not Gentiles.
If what you dislike about my statement is in relation to my categorizing endurance as being works of self effort, nd you choose to couple that with salvation, then, yes, it is a works-based system of salvation to which you subscribe.
So, disprove it all if you can.
MM
If you believe it's so simplistically terrible, then disprove it.
Matthew 24:15-17
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Now, Jesus was clearly speaking of the tribulation period to Israel, not Gentiles.
If what you dislike about my statement is in relation to my categorizing endurance as being works of self effort, nd you choose to couple that with salvation, then, yes, it is a works-based system of salvation to which you subscribe.
So, disprove it all if you can.
MM
Challenges of proving anything to you are empty rhetoric.
I can't tell if you reached and read post #4,450 yet.
What you post are continual fallacies - false dichotomies that equate commanded, grace-enabled endurance with works. Scripture never pits grace against endurance - your system does.
Paul pits grace against works of law as a means of attaining righteousness, not salvation. Salvation is the adoption, the redemption of our bodies. Patient endurance is one means through which freely gifted righteousness is actualized in our bodies. Righteousness is more than just a book entry; it is behavior. Without holy righteous behavior no one will see the lord
I am Israeli and I have grown to accept and love the words of scripture. As a Messianic Jew, I too was indoctrinated into the confusions of coupling Law with Grace, and therefore attempting to bring into grace the reality of Law. Study this carefully, word for word. Paul, an Israeli through and through, can help you with this to the extent of clarifying some additional realities for you:
Romans 11:1-6
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
So, the push within Messianic Judaism to mesh Law with grace, under which we are today (unmerited favor is the biblical definition of grace), we, as Messianic Jews, practiced intermix what clearly we are instructed to rightly divide:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
We within Messianic Judaism were constantly striving to adhere to the Law only in those portions that did not call us to those things in the Law fulfilled by Yahshuah, even though we kissed the scroll containing ALL the Mosaic Law, thus affirming our love and admiration of it ALL. The dichotomy in the impossible processes of trying to mix together the Law with grace, I could see in the others how they were internally conflicted into not seeing the dichotomy. They avoided the words of our brother Paul altogether in their studies. Why? Well, here's the contrast between Paul and the twelve, specifically James who spoke in terms that are the exact opposite to that of Paul in these passages:
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 6:14-15
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
So, when you say that she has blasphemed Holy Spirit, that's just not possible. When you say she has lost her salvation because of going into Judaism, that too is simply not defensible within the scriptures:
2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
What is His denial? Some people shove salvation into that denial, but that is not what Paul was saying.
The Greek term translated as "deny" in this sense is stated in Thayer's Greek Lexicon as:
a. ἀρν. Ἰησοῦν is used of follower of Jesus who, for fear of death or persecution, deny that Jesus is their master, and desert his cause, [to disown]: Matthew 10:33; Luke 12:9; [John 13:38 L text T Tr WH]; 2 Timothy 2:12, (ἀρν. τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, Revelation 3:8 means the same); and on the other hand, of Jesus, denying that one is his follower: Matthew 10:33; 2 Timothy 2:12.
Some love jamming salvation into this with no conscience whatsoever about practicing eisegetical interpretation. The simplistic jamming of personal beliefs into the scriptures is simply wrong. What they're doing is laying claim to one's denial of Christ on the basis of something as extreme as fear for death, on almost the same level as taking the mark of the beast in the time of the tribulation; which DOES assure loss (even permanent loss) of salvation, but we are not in that period of time nor under that dispensation. Where is the credibility in that for us today?
Also, how is that a blasphemy of Holy Spirit on the level of claiming the Power Jesus exercised, when walking this earth, originated from Beelzebub? All these subjective parallels that people draw without scriptural qualification is good reason to question and to counter with what scripture actually does say without cramming meaning into places where it is not addressed in the context.
So, your wife is saved if ever she truly believed Paul's gospel as defined in 1 Cor 15:1-4. Jesus Himself said this to Israel under the Kingdom Gospel:
John 10:25-30
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
Given that those under the Kingdom Gospel were secure in their future salvation on the basis of personal endurance, how much more secure are we even to the extent of some falling into unbelief, as shown in 2 Tim. 2:13. Our salvation right now is based upon Christ's faithfulness, not our own strength and endurance under a works-based dispensation.
What many fail to ask is why the Lord chooses to remain faithful even to those who themselves don't remain faithful, for we ALL still sin, and yet we are forgiven. The next time someone claims loss of salvation, then ask them to define that line in the sands of their personal beaches whereby one steps over and allegedly loses salvation. Nobody here or in any other forum has ever attempted to define that line and to effectively defend that point from scripture apart from personal belief and dogma. Perhaps THEY would remove salvation from some if THEY were occupying the Throne of God, but we're blessed that they are NOT sitting on that Throne.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
MM
Yadda, yadda, yadda...ad infinitum. These excuses are getting old when you don't want to back up your claims. We disagreed on the clear language of scripture on some things, and when I would ask for basis, you dodge aside. So, I'll go back to 4450 and see what you're talking about.
MM
Yes. Works...boasting. In relation to salvation, that clearly is excluded, and you have yet to prove that it's not.
Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Again, coupling this with salvation and its retention, you're arguing from silence. You quoted nothing consistent with context as showing this analysis of yours as being biblical. It's just mere claims.
And I showed to you, with quotes from scripture, that the endurance of which you speak was commanded of Israel and those under the Kingdom Gospel. The body of Christ is not bound for that Kingdom. I also showed that to you through quotes from scripture, and you continue in your rhetoric of denials.
Paul's address of endurance, in ever instance, are these:
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
1 Corinthians 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things (context: hardships, suffering, etc., not for the retention of salvation itself).
2 Corinthians 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings (not salvation itself) which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2 Timothy 2:3, 10
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. ...
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2 Timothy 4:3, 5
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; ...
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Paul's gospel, by which we are saved, speaks not one word in the arena of works of self-effort on our part for the gaining nor retention of salvation. That's a concoction of imagination, which renders it as eisegetical in nature rather than theologically sound.
So, what's your beef. Are you going to source those things spoken only to Israel as the nation of priests, who were tasked with preaching the Kingdom Gospel BEFORE the fall of Israel and that middle wall or partition:
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
That there was a wall of partition (separation), you gotta be kidding me to think that the Kingdom Gospel preached to those on what was once the other side of that wall from Gentiles, I mean, come on! Denying and ignoring the clear language is utterly dishonest.
Matthew 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
The Lord of Glory Himself identified Gentiles as dogs, for one will search in vain in the word of Christ Himself ever declaring Gentiles as fellow heirs with Him. It was only AFTER the fall of Israel and that middle wall of separation between Israel and Gentiles that salvation came unto the Gentiles. Your failure at systematically putting what ALL of scripture says within this panorama of God's ways in dealings with mankind as a whole, your bits and pieces theology that barely eeks out only part of the story, thus sticking to the man-made theologies of willful injections into the gaps that not even you made up yourself but were taught, no. The words within scripture deny the man-made theologies you spew out in these conversations, then claiming dichotomies in my presentations as mere accusation rather than a systematic defense that is consistent with right division.
And, yes, I did stand opposed to your use of James and Peter, who were apostles to Israel, not to the those who were brought into faith through Paul whose gospel was and is not the same as that of Paul. Their practice of that is further demonstrated in Acts 15, but that too remains a distant object of consideration in the singular gospel dogma crowd.
Oh well...
MM
Commanded, grace-enabled endurance is not meritorious works, and Scripture never pits endurance against grace. You repeatedly redefine and misclassify terms, then make assertions as if they prove your point, resulting in a string of flawed reasoning you apparently cannot grasp. Do you realize all you’ve done is post a verse about works without showing that endurance itself is a work?
Your wordy response (the very ‘yadda, yadda’ you accuse me of) does not address the point: commanded, grace-enabled endurance is not meritorious works. Instead, you repeatedly redefine terms, assert false dichotomies, push a mid-Acts or hyper-dispensational framework, and descend into ad hominem.
Well, I went back to this post. Not much to learn.
You have eternal life and are SAVED.
If you are not responsive......You lose blessings and possible eternal blessings.
If you are not cooperative ....You lose blessings and possible eternal blessings.............Must I continue with your list?
You are saved and have eternal life.......You turn into a calvie mindset with this EASY and MILK teaching.