Loss of salvation???

[Musicmaster]

Rev is all I have been talking about - You have answered – but I’m not sure I agree that it relates to only the Israelites –

Matt 24 – I also don’t see what you seem to be saying

Also Gentiles were all ready included based on Matt 28 - 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This was before REV – all are included

Matthew 24:13 — But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Notice the use of future tense when He said that they SHALL be saved on the basis of their endurance in the Tribulation. We, the body of Christ today are saved right now, not at some future point on the basis of endurance. That was my point in relation tomthat section of scripture.

That the apostles were still in Jerusalem 30 years after the Ascension of Christ, that too is interesting, as well as this:

Acts 11:19 — Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

That's an interesting phenomenon if they were of the understanding, even after the fall of Israel, that the command to allegedly preach to even Gentiles were valid.

MM

 

[Needevidence]

Matthew 24:13 — But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Notice the use of future tense when He said that they SHALL be saved on the basis of their endurance in the Tribulation. We, the body of Christ today are saved right now, not at some future point on the basis of endurance. That was my point in relation tomthat section of scripture.

That the apostles were still in Jerusalem 30 years after the Ascension of Christ, that too is interesting, as well as this:

Acts 11:19 — Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

That's an interesting phenomenon if they were of the understanding, even after the fall of Israel, that the command to allegedly preach to even Gentiles were valid.

MM

Noted including your previous post;


Matt 24 - I see as - those who follow Jesus (Jews being a race named after Judah, not a religion or Gentiles) and endure (maybe hardship, persecution, stride, keep faith etc...) will be saved,


In any event we clearly disagree - but many thanks for your time all the best.

 

[Musicmaster]

Noted including your previous post;


Matt 24 - I see as - those who follow Jesus (Jews being a race named after Judah, not a religion or Gentiles) and endure (maybe hardship, persecution, stride, keep faith etc...) will be saved,

Yes, and note also that He was speaking of those people in the time of the Tribulation, not to us today. If we were required to exercise "endurance," then our salvation too would be based upon works, which means our salvation it then not based upon grace, for it cannot be both unless one believes Paul was a liar. One who is not saved right now to the uttermost is not saved at all.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Yes, and note also that He was speaking of those people in the time of the Tribulation, not to us today. If we were required to exercise "endurance," then our salvation too would be based upon works, which means our salvation it then not based upon grace, for it cannot be both unless one believes Paul was a liar. One who is not saved right now to the uttermost is not saved at all.

​

In your patient endurance you possess your souls. Luke 21:19​

​

[God] will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient endurance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8​

 

[studier]

Yes, and note also that He was speaking of those people in the time of the Tribulation, not to us today. If we were required to exercise "endurance," then our salvation too would be based upon works, which means our salvation it then not based upon grace, for it cannot be both unless one believes Paul was a liar. One who is not saved right now to the uttermost is not saved at all.

MM

That's a terrible statement.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Yes, and note also that He was speaking of those people in the time of the Tribulation, not to us today. If we were required to exercise "endurance," then our salvation too would be based upon works, which means our salvation it then not based upon grace, for it cannot be both unless one believes Paul was a liar. One who is not saved right now to the uttermost is not saved at all.

MM

This is the binary that the Valentinian gnostics believed. Either you had the perfect knowledge that saved you to the uttermost and you couldn't become unsaved, or you didn't have that gnosis and weren't saved.

 

[Jordon]

That's a terrible statement.

terrible ? Why

 

[Docgero]

Shalom: I am a Messianic Jewish Man. My wife, was also Messianic. I got saved on our first date, but I was almost there anyway. Essentially, we were raised in Jewish homes with both parents Jewish. Despite being told by our parents that you must always be Jewish, 25 years ago I found the Jewish Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). My family disowned me for many years and called me a traitor and said I had been brain washed. 5 years ago my best friend went to a Jewish Rabbi Anti-Missionary named Tovia Singer. This friend was a a family friend who I trusted. Our children all grew up together. He was convinced by this Rabbi that Jesus was not the Messiah. He then started speaking to my wife privately and convincing her that Jesus is not the Messiah. They had an affair and she divorced me to marry him after 20 years of marriage. She told me, "I must let her go because she had rejected Jesus". Which actually not biblical. Is it? She willingly gave up her salvation. Can she repent and be saved again. I would like to think so. But the biggest sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit which is what she did. Can anyone please help me answer the question if she can recommit herself to Christ and be saved again through God's mercy and her repentance? Blessings for your help. Seraiah, Steven (my Hebrew Name). BTW I have never become so Jewish and understood the God of Israel until I was saved. Please pray for the peace of Israel.

 

[Jordon]

Shalom: I am a Messianic Jewish Man. My wife, was also Messianic. I got saved on our first date, but I was almost there anyway. Essentially, we were raised in Jewish homes with both parents Jewish. Despite being told by our parents that you must always be Jewish, 25 years ago I found the Jewish Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). My family disowned me for many years and called me a traitor and said I had been brain washed. 5 years ago my best friend went to a Jewish Rabbi Anti-Missionary named Tovia Singer. This friend was a a family friend who I trusted. Our children all grew up together. He was convinced by this Rabbi that Jesus was not the Messiah. He then started speaking to my wife privately and convincing her that Jesus is not the Messiah. They had an affair and she divorced me to marry him after 20 years of marriage. She told me, "I must let her go because she had rejected Jesus". Which actually not biblical. Is it? She willingly gave up her salvation. Can she repent and be saved again. I would like to think so. But the biggest sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit which is what she did. Can anyone please help me answer the question if she can recommit herself to Christ and be saved again through God's mercy and her repentance? Blessings for your help. Seraiah, Steven (my Hebrew Name). BTW I have never become so Jewish and understood the God of Israel until I was saved. Please pray for the peace of Israel.

She can be saved by Gods grace, when it comes to hardened beliefs it's by the grace of God, hearts can be softened. The reality is people will be led astray as well, and there's those who come to the knowledge of truth and willfully reject the knowledge of truth, however in the process God will know there hearts.

Theres are some Jewish beliefs, that there may be some form of after life cleansing that are for certain types of people, like children or some other reasons, I can't see they can be ruled out completely, especially where children are concerned, but for adults I'm unsure, because God may only have started spending 40 years with Israelites who could have been as old as 40 when he started to build there hearts up which means they could have been as late as 80 before they fully accepted his truth, so you could say some passed away at 79 almost fully built up, so I can't really say for sure, it it is best to get right with God before you go, but I do know Jewish people, and they don't do much wrong accept find it hard to believe Jesus was the Messiah, when I look at the reason why, theres really only the thought that perhaps because Jesus was seen in flesh it was easier at the time than it could be for those born into a hardened belief systems,

However the devine nature of God the father can exist in a person before recieving the devine nature of the the son, God is patient with people to

 

[studier]

terrible ? Why

This theology continually creates unbiblical binaries - false dichotomies - false either/or statements that make anything we're commanded do in responsive, cooperative, continual, obedient faith equal to meritorious "works".

Endurance is at minimum part of our Salvation, it's actually within the description of love, it's part of our responsibility in being disciplinarily trained by our perfect Father (and without endurance under discipline we're illegitimate sons, or as the KJV says, "bastards), and it is enabled and produced under grace.

That terrible statement pits grace against commanded endurance and thus against responsive, cooperative, continual, obedient faith, in an effort to make an erroneous systematic theology work.

 

[Jordon]

This theology continually creates unbiblical binaries - false dichotomies - false either/or statements that make anything we're commanded do in responsive, cooperative, continual, obedient faith equal to meritorious "works".

Endurance is at minimum part of our Salvation, it's actually within the description of love, it's part of our responsibility in being disciplinarily trained by our perfect Father (and without endurance under discipline we're illegitimate sons, or as the KJV says, "bastards), and it is enabled and produced under grace.

That terrible statement pits grace against commanded endurance and thus against responsive, cooperative, continual, obedient faith, in an effort to make an erroneous systematic theology work.

I think you've probably missed a few understanding here,

Those who endure until the end will be saved, could also imply it means there saved .

So you can look at it as requirement from your discipline before being saved but once saved you are saved to do the works of God, so really the requirements you where once under have been fulfilled,

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That terrible statement pits grace against commanded endurance and thus against responsive, cooperative, continual, obedient faith, in an effort to make an erroneous systematic theology work.

Word salad chef needs to explain this passage. It takes endurance to continually do these things

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:11-14​

 

[studier]

Word salad chef needs to explain this passage. It takes endurance to continually do these things

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:11-14​

Yes, it's built into and included in such Scriptures and it's refreshing to know that you know and are presenting this. So, for my part, Thank You.

That denial of ungodliness and living properly looking forward is not done apart from grace and endurance. And that last sentence in context in different wording says such was the purpose of His giving Himself.

Also, the responsive, cooperative, continuous, obedient faith I keep mentioning to break false binaries is in v.12-13 while His part is in v.11 & v.14 including the grace under which it all takes place - part of which is here identified as teaching us - which is really training us disciplinarily, which word ties us back to Heb12:7 where our endurance is required of us as legitimate sons.

At times I repeatedly think this endless loss of salvation discussion is a distraction and we should just be discussing who we are and what He requires of us - what His Son and our first-born brother and Lord King died to provide for us and for Him to do in us while we learn to willingly and lovingly cooperate with Him, which is the true miracle of His Grace.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

At times I repeatedly think this endless loss of salvation discussion is a distraction and we should just be discussing who we are and what He requires of us - what His Son and our first-born brother and Lord King died to provide for us and for Him to do in us while we learn to willingly and lovingly cooperate with Him, which is the true miracle of His Grace.

I know. Something actually edifying that teaches how to do God's will.

 

[Jordon]

At times I repeatedly think this endless loss of salvation discussion is a distraction and we should just be discussing who we are and what He requires of us - what His Son and our first-born brother and Lord King died to provide for us and for Him to do in us while we learn to willingly and lovingly cooperate with Him, which is the true miracle of His Grace.

. I wonder is there any part of you that thinks if you dont do your requirements once your saved you are either not saved or you can lose your salvation ?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

. I wonder is there any part of you that thinks if you dont do your requirements once your saved you are either not saved or you can lose your salvation ?

[Raises hand] Yes, every part of me. The many warnings are there for a reason.

 

[studier]

. I wonder is there any part of you that thinks if you dont do your requirements once your saved you are either not saved or you can lose your salvation ?

Yes. I don't think God fails at making legitimate sons in similarity to His first-born Son who is our first-born Brother and Lord. And, as I just said, the miracle of Grace is that He makes any of us willingly and lovingly obedient, faithfully abiding and enduring, cooperative sons. Within some of those words are an elaboration to my "Yes" answer.

 

[Jordon]

Yes. I don't think God fails at making legitimate sons in similarity to His first-born Son who is our first-born Brother and Lord. And, as I just said, the miracle of Grace is that He makes any of us willingly and lovingly obedient, faithfully abiding and enduring, cooperative sons. Within some of those words are an elaboration to my "Yes" answer.

Can you use that as grounds for mankind ? Maybe you can but Jesus was fully God in the flesh sin free.

I ask the question do you believe a person can lose there salvation,

 

[Jordon]

[Raises hand] Yes, every part of me. The many warnings are there for a reason.

there where two questions, which one did you answer to ?

Do you believe a person can lose there salvation ?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

there where two questions, which one did you answer to ?

Do you believe a person can lose there salvation ?

My yes was to both questions