logic and Reason Alone Can Prove Beliefs Inaccurate

[HealthAndHappiness]

Who knew? I didn't.

There are about 50 places I could find where Jesus refuted incorrect beliefs, practices, doctrines, ... and from what I can see, Jesus expects true Christians to evaluate every belief based on whether or not the belief makes complete logical, reasonable rational sense IN EVERY CASE. That said, whenever those with opposing doctrines and beliefs missed a biblical situation, verse or passage that applies to the topic. Jesus also brings those up as well, (Along with a call to use logic and reason and think all the ramifications of their beliefs through and then rethink the ones that do not make sense.

Here are the passages I found. Please let me know if I missed any of the interactions of Jesus with those whose beliefs were off.

Mat. 9:1-7, 10-13, 14-17, 11:15-20, 12:1-8, 10-14, 22-32, 33-37, 15:2-9, 21:23-27, 22:16-21, 41-46, Mar. 2:7-12, 16-17, 18-22, 24-28, 3:1-5, 22-30, 11:29-33, 12:14-17, 26-27, 35-37, Luk. 5:30-32, 33-35, 36-39, 6:1-5, 6-11, 39, 40, 41-42, 43-45, 46-49, 7:36-50, 44-50, 11:17-23, 38-44, 46-52, 13:14-16, 14:2-5, 8-11, 15:2-7, 8-10, 11-32, 16:13, 20:2-8, 22-25, 37-38, 41-44, Joh. 7:21-24, 8:7​

This said, the religious lost were unwilling to reconsider their beliefs based on Jesus questioning how they didn't make sense. If we also reject the testing of our beliefs based solely on logic and reason, i.e. do they make sense, are any of the ramifications of a belief ludicrous, contrary to the stated character of God, ... are we in the same exact position the religious lost were in when Jesus stated this was enough to prove their beliefs inaccurate? If we take this position, are we not saying Jesus' opposition should have rejected His points and reasoning as superfluous and laughable?

Not only these things, but if we hold to Jesus reasoning, what does it do when we think various popular doctrines and beliefs through? What does this say about our modern hermeneutical teachings? Should most of them be greatly revised in the light of Jesus standard practices for determining correct beliefs?

Think it through. What are the ramifications for pre-trib, mid-trib and post tribulation rapture? How about water baptism as a requirement for salvation? Calvinism?

What opinions do you have on the validity of reconsidering beliefs solely based on whether or not they make complete sense when all the ramifications of them are considered?

What beliefs do you "believe" fall short of truth when Jesus methodology is applied, and why do you suggest they fail the logic, reason, "Does that make any sense", test?

I'm looking forward to the discussion, and thanks for your input.

One rule of hermeneutics is,
" When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense lest it becomes nonsense, to quote Dr Gary Haring. "

In this regards, perhaps it supports your own reasoning.
It's a good rule to keep in mind as some preachers continually seek the unusual interpretations or hidden meanings in order to sound profound and impress their audience with intellect or special insights. There's nothing wrong with seeking insights, however
reading into the text what is not plainly there can be a trap to the arrogant communicator of God's Word.

Pride puffs up and this was rebuked by the Lord about the rabbis and their commandments that superceded God's law. The worse thing they did with the law was to misapply it as a requirement for salvation.
Most do likewise today and add to faith in Christ an obedience to the law by "turning from sins." This is a works based method that was rebuked sternly or put in a context of a command that the one who claimed to keep, certainly did not...is the rich young ruler.

 

[Gideon300]

The lack of fruit was not the fault of Jesus and Paul (Matt. 13:14-15, Acts 28:26-27).
Right reasoning is godly wisdom, not IQ (1Cor. 1:10 & 25, 2:6, 11 & 16).
In Scripture "heart" means mind/will/motive/desire (1Cor. 4:5, 14:25, Mark 7:21, Rom. 1:24).
The HS convicts of sin via the mind/conscience (Rom. 2:15, 3:20, Tit. 1:15, 1Tim. 4:1-2).
Blind eyes refers to foolish thinking (Matt. 23:17).

Fine. You rely on your intellect and I will seek revelation from God by the Holy Spirit. I've tried it both ways and I know which one works. I had to fail before I woke up. Maybe you will have to fail as well. The wise man learns from his mistakes. If you are really smart, you learn from other people's mistakes.

 

[GWH]

Fine. You rely on your intellect and I will seek revelation from God by the Holy Spirit. I've tried it both ways and I know which one works. I had to fail before I woke up. Maybe you will have to fail as well. The wise man learns from his mistakes. If you are really smart, you learn from other people's mistakes.

It is NOT fine for you to claim that I rely on my intellect, when what I said was:
Right reasoning is godly wisdom, not IQ (1Cor. 1:10 & 25, 2:6, 11 & 16).

It also is not fine for you to suggest that I do not seek revelation from God via the HS, when what I said was:
The HS convicts of sin via the mind/conscience (Rom. 2:15, 3:20, Tit. 1:15, 1Tim. 4:1-2).

I agree that a wise man learns from his mistakes and those of other people.
One you just made was to deny the truth of what I shared, which was based on the Scripture cited.
Please reply again by addressing what I actually shared. Thanks.

 

[JohnRH]

logic and Reason Alone Can Prove Beliefs Inaccurate

It seems that "logic & reason alone" would be a requirement for obtaining accurate belief that unenlightened man can't fully exercise. I would have to say that God's revelation (Scripture) alone can prove beliefs accurate/inaccurate.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, ... saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are ... my thoughts [higher] than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:8-11 (KJV)

So then faith [accurate belief] cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God [revelation]. Romans 10:17 (KJV)

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching [revelation] to save them that believe. 1 Cor 1:19-21 (KJV)

 

[Gideon300]

It is NOT fine for you to claim that I rely on my intellect, when what I said was:
Right reasoning is godly wisdom, not IQ (1Cor. 1:10 & 25, 2:6, 11 & 16).

It also is not fine for you to suggest that I do not seek revelation from God via the HS, when what I said was:
The HS convicts of sin via the mind/conscience (Rom. 2:15, 3:20, Tit. 1:15, 1Tim. 4:1-2).

I agree that a wise man learns from his mistakes and those of other people.
One you just made was to deny the truth of what I shared, which was based on the Scripture cited.
Please reply again by addressing what I actually shared. Thanks.

It is NOT fine for you to claim that I rely on my intellect, when what I said was:
Right reasoning is godly wisdom, not IQ (1Cor. 1:10 & 25, 2:6, 11 & 16).

It also is not fine for you to suggest that I do not seek revelation from God via the HS, when what I said was:
The HS convicts of sin via the mind/conscience (Rom. 2:15, 3:20, Tit. 1:15, 1Tim. 4:1-2).

I agree that a wise man learns from his mistakes and those of other people.
One you just made was to deny the truth of what I shared, which was based on the Scripture cited.
Please reply again by addressing what I actually shared. Thanks.

You say that logic and reason alone are sufficient. You also say that you seek revelation via the Holy Spirit. If logic and reason are sufficient, why do you need revelation?

The conscience is in the spirit of man, not his mind. God's word is spiritual and can only be understood spiritually. I've already stated references that show that truth.

If the mind was adequate, there would be far less deception in the body of Christ. "Let no one deceive you with empty words" Ephesians 5:6.

"Words" here is "logois", which is where we get our word logic from. For example, how many people fall for the false prosperity gospel? String several scriptures together, ignore those that do not fit the prosperity message and voila! People flock to give their money to make someone else rich.

As I said, the mind is a good servant, but a terrible master. This is how it is supposed to work:

The spirit is where God communicates with us. God is Spirit, so that is how He relates to us. The mind should be used to take the revelation in the spirit and turn it into words that we and others can understand.

I was deceived by the prosperity message. It's most appealing, especially when you are raising four kids and times are tough. All I got was poorer. I'm glad because it's a false doctrine and I learned that, even if it was the hard way.

I had a pastor who started preaching a false concept of leadership. My spirit rang an alarm bell, but I did not know why. And that's where the mind comes in. I began to study the scriptures and so was able to confirm what I felt my spirit was saying.

Many others in that church just went along with the pastor. It ended up in catastrophe a few years later. I'd pulled the pin by then. That was nearly 50 years ago. Satan used logic and reason to deceive Eve.

 

[GWH]

You say that logic and reason alone are sufficient. You also say that you seek revelation via the Holy Spirit. If logic and reason are sufficient, why do you need revelation?

The conscience is in the spirit of man, not his mind. God's word is spiritual and can only be understood spiritually. I've already stated references that show that truth.

If the mind was adequate, there would be far less deception in the body of Christ. "Let no one deceive you with empty words" Ephesians 5:6.

"Words" here is "logois", which is where we get our word logic from. For example, how many people fall for the false prosperity gospel? String several scriptures together, ignore those that do not fit the prosperity message and voila! People flock to give their money to make someone else rich.

As I said, the mind is a good servant, but a terrible master. This is how it is supposed to work:

The spirit is where God communicates with us. God is Spirit, so that is how He relates to us. The mind should be used to take the revelation in the spirit and turn it into words that we and others can understand.

I was deceived by the prosperity message. It's most appealing, especially when you are raising four kids and times are tough. All I got was poorer. I'm glad because it's a false doctrine and I learned that, even if it was the hard way.

I had a pastor who started preaching a false concept of leadership. My spirit rang an alarm bell, but I did not know why. And that's where the mind comes in. I began to study the scriptures and so was able to confirm what I felt my spirit was saying.

Many others in that church just went along with the pastor. It ended up in catastrophe a few years later. I'd pulled the pin by then. That was nearly 50 years ago. Satan used logic and reason to deceive Eve.

Thanks for trying again. What GW indicates is that every ability we have has been given by God,
including logic and reason (1Cor. 4:7), which are a mode of revelation sufficient for enabling sinners
to realize their need for God and to seek His salvation (Matt. 7:7, Luke 15:17-19).
As you noted, logic comes from Logos/Word, but it is fallible or capable of being deceived--
as you were regarding the prosperity gospel and I was regarding OSAS.
Conscience is moral reasoning, as in Rom. 2:15, and mind is synonymous with spirit (Phil. 2:2, 1Cor. 2:11-16).
GW = the HS, who is given to those who seek salvation God's Way (John 10:9, Rev. 3:20, Acts 16:30-31),
and the HS = truth and teaches truth/GW. As we learn GW we become wiser, more discerning

I hope you are happy with my clarifications, which IMO essentially agree with most of what you said.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Hmmm, logic and reason say that it is impossible for the dead to be raised and limbs to grow back. Logic and reason are good servants but bad masters. There is a reason why the Holy Spirit is given to lead us into all truth. Logic and reason are inadequate to know the things of God.

The Pharisees used logic and reason. They argued that only God had the authority to forgive sins. It's easy in hindsight to understand who Jesus is and why he could claim such authority. But it was not logic and reason that gave us that understanding.

I am an intellectual. That is not a boast. It has often been a hindrance rather than a help. Spiritual things are spiritually understood

"And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The natural man (reason and logic - my words) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:13 & 14

The Pharisees got it right. Only God can forgive sins. Jesus didn't argue the point because they were correct. That's a part of the point. If they reasoned ... but what if He is claiming to be God ... which they did later on. And then they accused Him of blasphemy ... because He claimed to be God. Salvation is for those who keep on going ... but what if ... what if He is God.

The problem is with unquestionably true beliefs. We have 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all with differing and conflicting core beliefs (Or they'd be in the same group.) We have 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups. Logic and reason state, the likelihood my particular beliefs are wrong is at least 55,000 to 1. Yet, almost everyone from all those belief groups sees their group as the exception.

That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves truth, or they love their beliefs. 2Th. 2:10-13

 

[EmethAlethia]

Actually, they don't. As most people do, you're confusing popular secular beliefs with logic and reasoning. When they are properly grounded in God's established characteristics as Creator, logic and reason say that raising the dead and restoring limbs are both logical and reasonable.


Agreed; they are tools for assessing information, but not for acquiring information (or revelation). For that, we need God's word and God's Spirit.


Correctly. What they missed is that Jesus is God. They misunderstood the word of God that they had, having put it into tight little boxes that excluded the Spirit's revelation.

Interesting. Many validate, and identify, with all the people who refused to consider Jesus' words.

Sending sound over wire... ludicrous. Over the airwaves? You are a loon. Flying? Of course you are nuts. Logic and reason state that everything seems impossible till those who fail to see how illogical their conclusions as to possibility are, step up and prove them wrong.

The problem isn't with the Spirit's revelation. We have 45,000 different belief groups all with different and conflicting core beliefs because the Holy Spirit gives them all, all the confirmation they need to hold fast to what they "want to believe" "as" truth. 2Th. 2:10-13

 

[EmethAlethia]

If you think about it, nothing about the faith is logical. Not to mention it puts a supreme lone creator in a bad light for having all the human emotions that lead us to sin.

The problem isn't that faith is illogical. The problem is that "most people's" faith is illogical. As Jesus pointed out in the 50 places where He claimed people's beliefs were off from truth, the reason they are incorrect is because they hold to beliefs that do not make sense when all the ramifications of them, and all the data that might pertain to the issue(s) at hand are accurately dissected.

We love our beliefs of what is true, not truth, and we get everything we need to hold fast to them. 2Th. 2:10-13

 

[EmethAlethia]

Thanks... I would look at just who Christ was talking to. They all lived by the law. There were no Christians no Church. We understand and not being funny but we know Christ is real right? He or should be more real the any flesh and blood. We have the sweet sweet holy Spirit that leads and guides us and shows us things to come. So many doctrines don't touch salvation nor Christ who came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin and was buried and rose the 3rd day the only way to the Father.

Man I would be mess up if I went by 'logic and reason". We walk by faith we live by faith. Yes its wise to read study yet what HE started in us He will finish. So for me its faith and the leading of the Holy Spirit over human logic and reasoning.

Ok. So, you agree with those Jesus corrected that logic and reason is no indicator at all of correct beliefs and that Jesus should have been dismissed without a hearing. There are 45,000 different belief groups out there within the group labeled "Christian", and in Mat. 7 Jesus says almost all of them, the "Many" are on the road that leads to destruction and will never even see the way, or the doorway that leads to life. They believe they are sheep but are wolves who will never see the kingdom of heaven in spite of believing Jesus is their Lord, God and Savior and having the signs and wonders the true Christians of the 1st century possessed.

The scarry part is that none of this vast multitude, the "Many" who believe these things and possess these things will have an inkling of doubt as to whether they are true Christians or not. ALL the lost always know, until it's too late, that they are saved. They all perish because they failed the choice listed in 2Th. 2:10-13, and all those perishing, including the lost "Christians" of Mat. 7, will never be able to even get a glimpse of the true gospel even if it is laid out before them. 2Co. 4:3-4

 

[GWH]

The Pharisees got it right. Only God can forgive sins. Jesus didn't argue the point because they were correct. That's a part of the point. If they reasoned ... but what if He is claiming to be God ... which they did later on. And then they accused Him of blasphemy ... because He claimed to be God. Salvation is for those who keep on going ... but what if ... what if He is God.

The problem is with unquestionably true beliefs. We have 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all with differing and conflicting core beliefs (Or they'd be in the same group.) We have 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups. Logic and reason state, the likelihood my particular beliefs are wrong is at least 55,000 to 1. Yet, almost everyone from all those belief groups sees their group as the exception.

That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves truth, or they love their beliefs. 2Th. 2:10-13

The problem/sin of denominationalism is why I encourage everyone to agree on the essential Gospel,
which would logically and Scripturally include the following points:

The normative way of stating God's requirement for salvation in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4, EZK 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

The problem isn't that faith is illogical. The problem is that "most people's" faith is illogical. As Jesus pointed out in the 50 places where He claimed people's beliefs were off from truth, the reason they are incorrect is because they hold to beliefs that do not make sense when all the ramifications of them, and all the data that might pertain to the issue(s) at hand are accurately dissected.

We love our beliefs of what is true, not truth, and we get everything we need to hold fast to them. 2Th. 2:10-13

Perhaps.