John Teaches Eternal Security; Demonic To Deny It
- Thread starter Atwood
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
SeeBass, let me give you a question to ponder on "abide in Christ," which you seem to imply means to be saved. (But didn't you argue once that no one was saved in this life before judgment? Or was that someone else?)
At any rate, scripture says in John 15 ~"If you abide in Me, and My word abide in you, you shall ask what you will, & it shall be done to you."
Now if to "abide in Christ" means "to be saved," then everyone who is saved asks whatever he wishes, & it is done to him. In other words, If abide in Christ meant to be saved, every saved person would have a blank check & never get a prayer unanswered (always a yes answer). So if anyone prays for something & doesn't get it, he would know that he was not saved.
So then Paul wasn't saved because Paul asked 3 X for a thorn in the flesh to be removed; but it was not removed!
To abide in Christ makes sense only as to abide in fellowship with Christ, not as meaning salvation.
Now once you stop dismissing Christ as mere chance-giver, repent of making water & human works an idol, take the position of the publican (God be merciful to me a sinner), and actually trust the Lord Jesus with your destiny; you should understand these things better.
At any rate, scripture says in John 15 ~"If you abide in Me, and My word abide in you, you shall ask what you will, & it shall be done to you."
Now if to "abide in Christ" means "to be saved," then everyone who is saved asks whatever he wishes, & it is done to him. In other words, If abide in Christ meant to be saved, every saved person would have a blank check & never get a prayer unanswered (always a yes answer). So if anyone prays for something & doesn't get it, he would know that he was not saved.
So then Paul wasn't saved because Paul asked 3 X for a thorn in the flesh to be removed; but it was not removed!
To abide in Christ makes sense only as to abide in fellowship with Christ, not as meaning salvation.
Now once you stop dismissing Christ as mere chance-giver, repent of making water & human works an idol, take the position of the publican (God be merciful to me a sinner), and actually trust the Lord Jesus with your destiny; you should understand these things better.
Atwood posted:John 3
even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He who believes on him is not judged: he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed on the name of the only Son of God. . . .
He who believes on the Son has eternal life;
John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say to you, He who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6
Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes on me shall never thirst. But I said to you, that you have seen me, and yet believe not. All that which the Father gives me shall come to me; and him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that of all that which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who who beholds the Son and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Verily, verily, I say to you, He who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever.
John 10
But you do not believe because you are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and
I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . . .
NewB responded:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν
μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. John 3:16
μὴ ἀπόληται = should not perish.
μὴ = not
ἀπόληται = (should) perish
(no actual word "should" in Greek; that is an English periphrasis)
Do you understand, NewB?
The point is that God's intended purpose
(expressed by ἵνα followed by the subjunctive mood)
in giving His Son to die on the cross was that everyone who believes should have eternal life. There is no should-doubt expressed about having eternal life if one believes. But Christ's death on the cross does have an uncertain outcome in the life of individuals (should not perish). And the "whosoever" rules out anything essentially needed besides believe. His death paid for everyone's sins, but to receive that benefit, one must believe.
Some will not trust the Son of God as Savior; some dismiss Him as a mere chance-giver, also making water & works idols, trusting them as savior.
But for those who just can't get it, there are plenty of times where the plan of salvation is expressed without subjunctive mood (may/should).
Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
Πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ σωθήσῃ.
Πίστευσον = believe (Aorist active imperative mood, 2nd person singular). Aorist is employed where a singular act at a point of time is meant. Believe, & just believe once!
Believe once, so far as this command & its result follows
(not that anyone will ever stop believing -- it doesn't speak about stopping belief or continuing belief).
Πίστευσον = believe once, decisively, no process of continued belief required.
ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν = on the Lord Jesus
κύριον = Lord. He is LORD = YHWH; He must be adequately defined (not Jesús the Mexican mechanic.)
καὶ σωθήσῃ = and you shall be saved (future passive indicative 2nd person singular).
There are no "mays" or "shoulds" here.
What is bread for your sack?
Take the knee now, and call out, "God be merciful to me a sinner," and claim the promise of Romans 10:13 "For whosever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be saved" (no mays or shoulds). That is the call of faith.
Without delay, drop to the knees, cry out to the Savior,
"God be merciful to me a sinner, and save me from sin & myself. Forgive me for trusting in water. Make me a child of God, please give me your free gift of eternal life & pardon all my sins. I do now trust the Lord Jesus as my only & sufficient Savior, and I depend completely on His substitutionary death as the complete payment for all my sins."
even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He who believes on him is not judged: he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed on the name of the only Son of God. . . .
He who believes on the Son has eternal life;
John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say to you, He who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6
Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes on me shall never thirst. But I said to you, that you have seen me, and yet believe not. All that which the Father gives me shall come to me; and him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that of all that which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who who beholds the Son and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Verily, verily, I say to you, He who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever.
John 10
But you do not believe because you are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and
I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . . .
NewB responded:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν
μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. John 3:16
μὴ ἀπόληται = should not perish.
μὴ = not
ἀπόληται = (should) perish
(no actual word "should" in Greek; that is an English periphrasis)
Do you understand, NewB?
The point is that God's intended purpose
(expressed by ἵνα followed by the subjunctive mood)
in giving His Son to die on the cross was that everyone who believes should have eternal life. There is no should-doubt expressed about having eternal life if one believes. But Christ's death on the cross does have an uncertain outcome in the life of individuals (should not perish). And the "whosoever" rules out anything essentially needed besides believe. His death paid for everyone's sins, but to receive that benefit, one must believe.
Some will not trust the Son of God as Savior; some dismiss Him as a mere chance-giver, also making water & works idols, trusting them as savior.
But for those who just can't get it, there are plenty of times where the plan of salvation is expressed without subjunctive mood (may/should).
Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
Πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ σωθήσῃ.
Πίστευσον = believe (Aorist active imperative mood, 2nd person singular). Aorist is employed where a singular act at a point of time is meant. Believe, & just believe once!
Believe once, so far as this command & its result follows
(not that anyone will ever stop believing -- it doesn't speak about stopping belief or continuing belief).
Πίστευσον = believe once, decisively, no process of continued belief required.
ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν = on the Lord Jesus
κύριον = Lord. He is LORD = YHWH; He must be adequately defined (not Jesús the Mexican mechanic.)
καὶ σωθήσῃ = and you shall be saved (future passive indicative 2nd person singular).
There are no "mays" or "shoulds" here.
What is bread for your sack?
Take the knee now, and call out, "God be merciful to me a sinner," and claim the promise of Romans 10:13 "For whosever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be saved" (no mays or shoulds). That is the call of faith.
Without delay, drop to the knees, cry out to the Savior,
"God be merciful to me a sinner, and save me from sin & myself. Forgive me for trusting in water. Make me a child of God, please give me your free gift of eternal life & pardon all my sins. I do now trust the Lord Jesus as my only & sufficient Savior, and I depend completely on His substitutionary death as the complete payment for all my sins."
Last edited:
"Abide in Christ" IS salvation, only a person with a theological bias would say it is not. There is no such thing as one NOT abiding in Christ yet saved anyway.
No one can ask for and get what he wishes. I cannot ask Christ to allow me to live in sin yet still save me anyway for that violates Christ's words/promises. What the Christians ask for must be harmony with the will of the Lord. It was not the will of the Lord Paul's thorn in the flesh be removed.
John commanded ' "Let that therefore abide (imperative mood) in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
John is COMMANDING to let the gospel continue abide in them. Can one be saved without the gospel, Rom 1:16? No.
Therefore IF IF IF they heed John's command and continue to abide in the gospel they would also continue to abide in Christ and God. The implied implication is not abiding in the Christ's gospel is not abiding in Christ = lost.
Jn 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
Jn 15:3 "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."
Jn 15:4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."
Jn 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
Jn 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Jn 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
What happens if a Christian does not abide in Christ? Cast into the fire and burned.
No one can ask for and get what he wishes. I cannot ask Christ to allow me to live in sin yet still save me anyway for that violates Christ's words/promises. What the Christians ask for must be harmony with the will of the Lord. It was not the will of the Lord Paul's thorn in the flesh be removed.
John commanded ' "Let that therefore abide (imperative mood) in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
John is COMMANDING to let the gospel continue abide in them. Can one be saved without the gospel, Rom 1:16? No.
Therefore IF IF IF they heed John's command and continue to abide in the gospel they would also continue to abide in Christ and God. The implied implication is not abiding in the Christ's gospel is not abiding in Christ = lost.
Jn 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
Jn 15:3 "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."
Jn 15:4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."
Jn 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
Jn 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Jn 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
What happens if a Christian does not abide in Christ? Cast into the fire and burned.
IF those John speaks about were NEVER of them, then that is a specific example and not the rule.
Acts 15:5 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed...."
These Pharisees were Christians that believed, no heretics. Luke did not say they faked their belief but actually believed.
You call them heretics, Luke calls them believers. You are re-writing scripture to make cover for your man-made theology.
Acts 15:24 "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"
These believing Pharisees went out from the church at Jerusalem.
2 Pet 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
Here is another example of false teacher that had been bought (past tense) by the Lord.
Jn 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch,........ and cast into the fire, and they are burned."
Don't worry, I know who God is and who Jesus is. However, you still have not answered my question. He is first person singular, three is plural, how does that work? Youre asking me about the Trinity yet you won't answer this question about the Trinity.
You're begging the question. You know God is eternal because it says He is owlam and you know owlam means eternal because it used of God. It's a circular argument.
It's not my saying it, I've shown it.
Another red herring.
Ah, but I have. I already posted the passage from Jude but here's another.
KJV Leviticus 7:34 For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel. (Lev 7:34 KJV)
Is the Aaronic priesthood eternal? Nope, Paul said there was a change in the priesthood.
[/QUOTE]
Ah the fallacy of poisoning the well, that's three so far.
And they're not still burning, thus aionios doesn't mean eternal.
As long as I agree with Scripture that all that matters. You can have the Lexicons, they're
the writings of men.
I guess it's time for an update.
You're begging the question. You know God is eternal because it says He is owlam and you know owlam means eternal because it used of God. It's a circular argument.
It's not my saying it, I've shown it.
Another red herring.
Ah, but I have. I already posted the passage from Jude but here's another.
KJV Leviticus 7:34 For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel. (Lev 7:34 KJV)
Is the Aaronic priesthood eternal? Nope, Paul said there was a change in the priesthood.
[/QUOTE]
Ah the fallacy of poisoning the well, that's three so far.
And they're not still burning, thus aionios doesn't mean eternal.
As long as I agree with Scripture that all that matters. You can have the Lexicons, they're
the writings of men.
I guess it's time for an update.
Last edited:
YES, it is demonic to deny that the Savior is a savior & make Him a mere chance-giver. He shall save His people from their sins.
It isn't OSAS. IT is OSS = once saved, saved! If you are saved, then by golly you ARE saved! Save/salvation & lose/lost never occur together in the same verse in the Bible. Motes in eyes have nothing to do with it. And no, you have not seen any Christian fall from his faith. All you have seen is professed Christians fall from faith. If you see a professed Christian fall, you have no way of knowing that he was really born again. The issue is that a man must trust the Lord Jesus as Savior, not as mere chance-giver. So if you think you can lose your salvation, that evidences your failure to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior. And you are distorting salvation into chance-receiving.
As 1 John says: APOSTASY PROVES THAT A PROFESSED CHRISTIAN WAS NEVER A REAL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.
It isn't OSAS. IT is OSS = once saved, saved! If you are saved, then by golly you ARE saved! Save/salvation & lose/lost never occur together in the same verse in the Bible. Motes in eyes have nothing to do with it. And no, you have not seen any Christian fall from his faith. All you have seen is professed Christians fall from faith. If you see a professed Christian fall, you have no way of knowing that he was really born again. The issue is that a man must trust the Lord Jesus as Savior, not as mere chance-giver. So if you think you can lose your salvation, that evidences your failure to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior. And you are distorting salvation into chance-receiving.
As 1 John says: APOSTASY PROVES THAT A PROFESSED CHRISTIAN WAS NEVER A REAL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.
Your 100% Correct (Eternal Security), Every Saved Believer Is Sealed By God The Holy Spirit, And This Is Until The Day Of Redemption
Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption
Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption
Amen on that, banned Butch
.
Hebrews
10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
10:21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised
10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
.Hebrews
10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
10:21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised
10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Interested in how anyone sees these two passages:
1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
-
1
- Show all
