John Teaches Eternal Security; Demonic To Deny It

[Atwood]

You're reading your theology into the definition. That's what the translators do.

Inductive study is an important principle, as is the Analogy of the Faith. We compare all the data & see how it fits together.

You speak about God, Butch.
Who is God?
Is He the Trinity of Father, Son, & Holy Spirit?
Is Christ God, YHWH the Son , who became a man with flesh & blood,
died, was buried, & rose from the dead bodily?

Yes, aionios is used of God, does that mean that it means eternal?

Yes. For God is not merely aged, but eternal. And aionios is a time word.

The word Love is used of God, does the word love mean eternal?

Off the wall irrelevant. It means that God is loving. Love is not a time word.

BDAG:

2. pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God
(Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον;
IBM 894, 2
αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις;
Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28;
Bar 4:8 al.;
Philo, Plant. 8; 74;
SibOr fgm. 3, 17 and 4;
PGM 1, 309; 13, 280)
Ro 16:26;

of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14.

θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).

 

[Atwood]

John says that the Shepherd gives his sheep eternal life & they shall never perish. If aiōnios mean "for some temporary period," that would contradict the "never perish." Thus aionios means eternal, not some temporary period. Trying to dismiss aionios as pertaining to some temporary age is a preposterous argument.

But since Butch wishes to argue apparently that eternal (aionios) does not mean eternal on this thread, Let us post more data from BDAG Lexicon, which gives many examples both from the Bible & from secular Greek sources. I insert some Greek translation in brackets for those who don't read Greek:

3. pert. to a period of unending duration, without end

(Diodorus Siculus 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1
δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame;

in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1
the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις;

Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.;

Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time;

OGI 383, 10 [I BC] εἰς χρόνον [to time] αἰ.;

[Reference to journal article:]
EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50 )

of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. [eternal tabernacles] Lk 16:9
(cp. Enoch 39:5).

οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος [earthly home], of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1.

διαθήκη [covenant]
(Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km [= 2 Sam] 23:5 al.;
PsSol 10:4 al.)
Hb 13:20.

εὐαγγέλιον [gospel] Rv 14:6;

κράτος [strength] in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16.

παράκλησις [comfort] 2 Th 2:16.

λύτρωσις [redemption / loosing] Hb 9:12.

κληρονομία [inheritance] (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21.

αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά [to have/keep someone] (opp. πρὸς ὥραν [for an hour]) keep someone forever Phlm 15
(cp. Job 40:28).

Very often of God’s judgment
(Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου [in Hades] διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα;
similarly 4, 69, 5;
Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15)

κόλασις [punishment] αἰ. (TestReub 5:5)
Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7;

κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5).

θάνατος [death] B 20:1.

ὄλεθρον [destruction] (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9.

πῦρ [fire]
(4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16. —SibOr 8, 401 φῶς [light] αἰ.)
Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8).

ἁμάρτημα [sin] Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας).

On the other hand, of eternal life
(Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.;
Diod. S. 8, 15, 3
life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον [after death] lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα;

Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; OdeSol 11:16c;
JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.];
Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336)

in the Reign of God:
ζωὴ [life] αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3)
Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46;
Mk 10:17, 30;
Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30;
J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f;
Ac 13:46, 48;
Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f;
Gal 6:8;
1 Ti 1:16; 6:12;
Tit 1:2; 3:7;
1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20;
Jd 21;
D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al.

Also βασιλεία [kingdom]
αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11
(ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493;
OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου [incorruptible] βασιλείας ὑμῶν;
Dssm. B 279f, BS 363).

Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ.
2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10
(cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.
—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον).

αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης [weight of glory] 2 Cor 4:17;

σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19)
Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk.

Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.
—χαρά [joy] IPhld ins;
δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1.

It is preposterous to claim that all the things above (cited by BDAG) called aiōnios are merely temporary, lasting for an age. The word as used means
eternal or everlasting.

I posted already much like the below:

Inductive study is an important principle, as is the Analogy of the Faith. We compare all the data & see how it fits together.

You speak about God, Butch.
Who is God?
Is He the Trinity of Father, Son, & Holy Spirit?
Is Christ God, YHWH the Son , who became a man with flesh & blood,
died, was buried, & rose from the dead bodily?

Yes, the meaning of aionios is determined by its contextual use for God. For God is not merely aged, but eternal. And aionios is a time word.

The objection that "God is love" proves something is off the wall irrelevant. It means that God is loving. Love is not a time word.

BDAG:

2. pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God
(Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον;
IBM 894, 2
αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις;
Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28;
Bar 4:8 al.;
Philo, Plant. 8; 74;
SibOr fgm. 3, 17 and 4;
PGM 1, 309; 13, 280)
Ro 16:26;

of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14.

θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).

 

[Butch5]

Inductive study is an important principle, as is the Analogy of the Faith. We compare all the data & see how it fits together.p

As I said, you're reading your theology into the text.

You speak about God, Butch.
Who is God?
Is He the Trinity of Father, Son, & Holy Spirit?
Is Christ God, YHWH the Son , who became a man with flesh & blood,
died, was buried, & rose from the dead bodily?

This is a red herring, however, I do have a question for you. How can "He" first person singular be three which his plural?

Yes. For God is not merely aged, but eternal. And aionios is a time word.

As I've pointed out, just because God is eternal doesn't mean aionios means eternal.

Off the wall irrelevant. It means that God is loving. Love is not a time word.

BDAG:

2. pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God
(Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον;
IBM 894, 2
αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις;
Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28;
Bar 4:8 al.;
Philo, Plant. 8; 74;
SibOr fgm. 3, 17 and 4;
PGM 1, 309; 13, 280)
Ro 16:26;

of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14.

θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).

It doesn't matter, your argument was that aionios means eternal because God is eternal, that's a non sequitur.

I've already shown that aionios doesn't mean eternal, it doesn't matter what dictionary definitions you post unless you're going to claim they are inspired. The bottom line is that Scripture shows that aionios doesn't mean eternal.

 

[Butch5]

Atwood asked Butch:

Butch, just who is this "He" to whom you refer, namely the Lord Jesus? Can you confess that He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who became a man in the flesh, died on the cross, and rose bodily from the dead?



You used the word "He." Thus it is quite proper to ask you who this He is.

Butch, just who is this "He" to whom you refer, namely the Lord Jesus? Can you confess that He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who became a man in the flesh, died on the cross, and rose bodily from the dead?

It is noted that you did not confess the Lord Jesus.

1 John 4:

4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit thatconfesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

I am asking of you on this Christian forum to confess your Christ. Who is this He?

Is He 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who become man with flesh & blood, went to the cross, died, was buried, & rose from the dead in the body that was buried, but transformed???

All you had to do was read the passage, however, we all know who the He was. Firstly I capitalize He. So, yes, you post was red herring as it is now. The thread is not about who Jesus is, it's about John and whether or not he taught eternal security.

However, I've already answered you question in another post. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. There's nothing in Scripture that says one must believe that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity.

 

[kepha]

All you had to do was read the passage, however, we all know who the He was. Firstly I capitalize He. So, yes, you post was red herring as it is now. The thread is not about who Jesus is, it's about John and whether or not he taught eternal security.

However, I've already answered you question in another post. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. There's nothing in Scripture that says one must believe that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity.

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the
Father and of the
Son and of the
Holy Spirit."

The heresiarch Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father, infecting most of the Church, necessitating the Council of Nicae (325 A.D.) which clarified the Doctrine of the Trinity. It was not "invented" at this council, but ruled out Arius's abuse of scripture.

There is nothing in scripture that states that only doctrines found explicitly in scripture are trustworthy, that is a ddoctrine in itself. At the same time, no one individual has the authority to dream up doctrines either.

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.


John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.


John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.


John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.


John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.


John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.


John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.


John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.


Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).


Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.


Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.


Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.


Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.


Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.


Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
Scripture Catholic - SALVATION

 

[SnapDragon8001]

those born of god are the ones who have eternal security

 

[Atwood]

This is a red herring, however, I do have a question for you. How can "He" first person singular be three which his plural?

It is not a red herring.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already. 4 Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they as of the world, and the world heareth them.

And from your rhetorical question, I take it that you do not believe in either the God of the Bible nor in the Lord Jesus. As The God of the Bible is the Triune God; Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

As I've pointed out, just because God is eternal doesn't mean aionios means eternal.

How does your up & saying something absurd prove anything? How can you escape the conclusion of eternal when a categorical time word is applied to God? He is aionios; he is eternal. Aionios is the Greek word for eternal as Greek lexicons state and give so many contextual examples.

I've already shown that aionios doesn't mean eternal, it doesn't matter what dictionary definitions you post unless you're going to claim they are inspired. The bottom line is that Scripture shows that aionios doesn't mean eternal.

Scripture does not show any such thing. You have not proven that aionios does not mean eternal. Your merely saying it, proves nothing; it is just you saying something. You are not scripture. The evidence of
1) the word describing God,
2) the lexicons and
3) all the translations that render it "eternal,"
is conclusive proof.

Rom 10: "according to the commandment of the eternal [aionios] God.

To say that aionios there means that God is a temporary being is aburd. It can mean nothing but eternal here.

1 Pet 5: And the God of all grace, who called you unto his eternal glory in Christ,

To claim that God's glory is temporary instead of eternal is absurd. God is immutable. He always has been glorious & always shall be.

The lexicon is correct, and you have no proof to the contrary.

And when the Lord says that He gives eternal life that the recipients will never perish, that proves that aionios means eternal or everlasting.

 

[Atwood]

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the
Father and of the
Son and of the
Holy Spirit."

It is better encapsulated in Isaiah 48 which is much like the start of John:

16 Come ye near unto
[2]Me,
hear ye this; from the beginning
[2]I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there
[2] I am: and now
[1] the Lord YHWH hath sent
[2] Me, and
[3] His Spirit.

There is nothing in scripture that states that only doctrines found explicitly in scripture are trustworthy, that is a doctrine in itself.

Now that is you saying something. What is your proof of that one? The Lord Jesus said that the Scripture cannot be broken. No document outside the Bible is endorsed by the Bible as God's Word.

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

Chosen to be an apostle is not the same as chosen to salvation. With regard to salvation (even ultimate glorification), Romans 8 clearly says that everyone chosen is justified & glorified.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die.

Taking a passage on maintaining fellowship with Christ & chastisement, and turning that into losing salvation is nonsense. In fact John 15 says that the fruit that believers bear remains! And it is clear in scripture that souls won are fruit. The passage says nothing about losing salvation.

Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

False. Romans 11 concerns large groups of people, Jews & Gentiles, gentiles addressed with the singular "you." Currently the Lord is saving predominately gentiles, but the future can change. In fact Romans 11 says that the gifts & calling of God are irrevocable.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 17 says not such thing. John says that the Lord gives believers eternal life & that they shall never perish.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

Again, you are just saying things which have no Biblical basis. There is nothing about "continuing to come to Christ." Coming to Christ is something done at a point of time. There is nothing there about coming & never getting there or getting there, going away, and coming again. You quote no verse on free will. You make things up.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

Scripture never says that Judas was ever saved. 1 John 2 says that those who go away were never "of us" as the departure proves.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

No, it does not mean that. It indicates that the one who believes (presently) will have eternal life.
Eph 2: For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works. Faith is an opposite pole to works, and obedient works is not the cause of salvation, but the result of salvation.

[quoteJohn 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.[/quote]
The drawing is complete when the person comes to the Lord Jesus, drawn by the Father to Him. Once one is there, one cannot be then drawn to.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

No one includes the person in the hands. But the statement "I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish" stands by itself. What follows is just reinforcement, which you twist.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Ephesians is a local church, not an individual. There is no plan of salvation in that statement. The lampstand is the testimony of the local church. There is no church of Ephesus any more so far as I know. Local churches rise & fall all the time; this has nothing to do with salvation.

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev 3:4 says no such thing at all. It doesn't say someone got a white garment & then defiled it.

4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life,

This is a wonderful verse, a guarantee of eternal security. The overcomer will not be blotted out. 1 John defines overcomer as the believer.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

False, Rev 3:5 says nothing about a believer being blotted out, but guarantees the believer that he will not be blotted out.

Kindly stop making things up.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

You will find 5 crowns (victor's wreaths) in the NT; they are rewards for good works, and not salvation at all. 3:11 does not speak of any "crown of salvation."
Kindly stop making things up.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

So what? And why do you say "we"? Idolaters are not included, nor those who deny the Savior & make Him a mere chance giver.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev 21:7 does not say that.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

No, Rev 22:19 does not say that.

19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

The passage doesn't say that a part acquired was taken away from the man. Salvation has been provided for all men, but only those who trust Christ as Savior receive the salvation.

 

[Atwood]

With all the rabbit paths, let us focus on God's Word in John:
Once Saved, the believer is saved!
Christ is not a mere chance-giver, but the Savior, who promises to save His people from their sin.

John 3
even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He who believes on him is not judged: he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed on the name of the only Son of God. . . .

He who believes on the Son has eternal life;

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say to you, He who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6
Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes on me shall never thirst. But I said to you, that you have seen me, and yet believe not. All that which the Father gives me shall come to me; and him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that of all that which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who who beholds the Son and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Verily, verily, I say to you, He who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever.

John 10
But you do not believe because you are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and
I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . . .

John 11:

"Jesus said to her,
I am the resurrection and the life:
he who believes on me, though he die,
yet he shall live;
and whosoever lives and believes on me shall never die.
Do you believe this? "

John 13

Peter says to him, You shall never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash you not, you have no part with me. Simon Peter says to him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus says to him, He who bathed needs not save to wash his feet,
but is clean every whit:

John 17


glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify you even as you gave him authority over all flesh, that
to all whom you hast given him, he should give eternal life.

 

[Kaycie]

1st The phrase, "May have eternal life." "May" means 'permission to' such as in the sentence, "You may come in." It does not imply that the person already is in or will stay in, but even though permission is granted, it still requires action on your part. "May" also means 'the possibility of'. Such as in the sentence, "It may rain today. "May" is not a word used to describe something that is definite or absolute, but possible. If you don't believe then it is not even possible for you to be saved, but if you do believe then it is possible for you to be saved. I can believe all I want that if I exercise I will lose weight, but believing it means nothing if I don't actually do it. And if someone said to me, "You may use my home gym so you can get fit." Does not mean that believing and having permission, in and of itself, makes me automatically fit.

2nd The phrase "Should be saved." "Should" is a conditional statement, some other action is needed. Such as in the sentence, "If you are cold you should put on a coat." Just believing that the coat will make you warm does not make you warm, unless you actually put it on. If you believe Jesus is the Son of God you should do what you have to do to get saved- it is advice, not a result. Believing the coat will make you warm does not result in you being warm, but actually putting it on does. We put on Christ in baptism (Gal. 3:27). Or another way to put it, we are baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3). And we know that those who are IN Christ are saved. Therefore, if you believe then you should get baptized INTO Christ and be saved.

There is only one thing that washes away sin and that is Christ's blood. And we can believe that the power of His blood works all we want to, but if we don't come in contact with it like we should, then believing alone is not going to save us. Listen my friend, if you are saved before baptism, that would mean that baptism does not save you, because you are already saved. And if that were true, then God is made out to be a liar when He says that just as Noah was saved through water, baptism does also now save you. Baptism saves because that is where we come in contact with Christ's blood- for He shed His blood in His death, and we too must also be baptized into His death in order to come in contact with His life-saving blood. And we keep in contact with that blood when we partake of the Lord's Supper.

Baptism is a death and burial. In Luke 12:50 Jesus was stressed about an upcoming baptism that He had to undergo. Why would He get baptized again since He was already baptized in Luke 3:21? And why would He be stressed about being dunked under water? It's because water baptism was not what He was referring to, He was referring to His death on the cross. When you get baptized you bury your old sinful self and are raised a new creature alive with the Holy Spirit. (2 Cor. 5:17).

Yes some scriptures mention believing and being saved in the same verse, because it is impossible to be saved if you don't believe. But we must take all scripture into consideration in order to get the full picture. Believing alone does not save a soul. Demons believe- does that mean they will inherit salvation? Absolutely not. (James 2:19).

 

[Kerry]

Noah was saved by wood that was made into a boat. The others were baptized and died and Noah's feet did not get wet, He was on the ark made of wood. The wood represents the cross and by the cross we are saved and not by taking a bath.

 

[SeaBass]

The issue of "abiding in" is fellowship, not connection to the Body of Christ. And the word "in" has a number of meanings. Neither is it logical to deny an antecedent (simple logical fallacy; if A, then B does not prove if not A, then not B.)

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for

if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us.

But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

John is clear that those who trust Christ as Savior have eternal security; they have eternal life & do not perish.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

1 Jn 2:19 does not teach eternal security.
Acts 15:5 speaks of Pharisees that believed, had become Christians at the church in Jerusalem. BUt these Pharisees went about spreading false teachings as the anti-Christs John speaks about..."Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" Acts 15:24.

Nor did you explain why John would command Christians "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." if salvation cannot be lost. One is either "in Christ" or outside of Christ, no inbetween position. How could they fall from Christ if that were impossible? Can a Christian be saved if the gospel which he has heard does not remain in him?

 

[truelawofGod]

Its very clear that once saved always saved is not a reality, you must do your best to abid in Him because He will see what your hearts intentions are even though you may sin again you must also repent.

 

[Atwood]

1 Jn 2:19 does not teach eternal security.

Yes, it does teach eternal security; for it states that those who are of us (in Body of Christ) CONTINUE with us (in the Body of Christ.) Those who go out from the group of Christians show that they are not "of us" (of those saved in the Body of Christ.


1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for

if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us.

But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Acts 15:5 speaks of Pharisees that believed, had become Christians at the church in Jerusalem. BUt these Pharisees went about spreading false teachings as the anti-Christs John speaks about..."Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" Acts 15:24.

Acts 15:5 does not say that these heretics were saved. The "went out from us" does not mean as in 1 John that they broke with the church of Jerusalem; it only indicates that they were among the Christians in Jerusalem. But as 1 John says, if they "went out" (apostatizing) it proves they were never saved, never part of the secure family of God.

Nor did you explain why John would command Christians "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." if salvation

cannot be lost. One is either "in Christ" or outside of Christ, no inbetween position. How could they fall from Christ if that were impossible? Can a Christian be saved if the gospel which he has heard does not remain in him?

Your quote from John says nothing about salvation -- the word does not occur. "In" has a number of meanings. 1 John takes up the topic of John 15, abiding in Christ (which you render "continue" above). That topic is that of remaining in fellowship with Christ. Obviously Christians sin and lose fellowship without losing salvation (oxymoron). The shepherd seeks out his wandering sheep & takes restorative measures. The you insert "gospel" where the text says "that which ye have heard from the beginning" without proving what doctrine is meant there. Is it not remarkable how scripture never says "lose salvation"?

BDAG on the Preposition ἐν (en; translated often, but not always, as "in" in English):

c. esp. in Paul. or Joh. usage, to designate a close personal relation in which the referent of the ἐν-term is viewed as the controlling influence: under the control of, under the influence of,
in close association with
(cp. ἐν τῷ Δαυιδ εἰμί 2 Km 19:44 [2 Samuel]):
["we have also an interest in David above you"]

of Christ εἶναι, μένειν ἐν τῷ πατρί (ἐν τῷ θεῷ)
[to be, to abide in the father (in the God)]
J 10:38; 14:10f ;

and of Christians 1J 3:24; 4:13, 15f; be or abide in Christ J 14:20; 15:4f;
μένειν ἐν τῷ υἱῷ καὶ ἐν τῷ πατρί 1J 2:24.
ἔργα ἐν θεῷ εἰργασμένα done in communion with God J 3:21 (but s. 1e above). [works in God worked]

—In Paul the relation of the individual to Christ is very oft. expressed by such phrases as
ἐν Χριστῷ, ἐν κυρίῳ etc., also vice versa ;
ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός Gal 2:20, but here in the sense of a above

—Paul has the most varied expressions for this new life-principle:
life in Christ Ro 6:11, 23;
love in Christ 8:39; grace, which is given in Christ 1 Cor 1:4;
freedom in Chr. Gal 2:4;
blessing in Chr. 3:14;
unity in Chr. vs. 28.
στήκειν ἐν κυρίῳ stand firm in the Lord Phil 4:1;
εὑρεθῆναι ἐν Χ. be found in Christ 3:9;
εἶναι ἐν Χ. 1 Cor 1:30;
οἱ ἐν Χ. Ro 8:1.—1 Pt 5:14;
κοιμᾶσθαι ἐν Χ.,
ἀποθνῄσκειν ἐν κυρίῳ 1 Cor 15:18.—Rv 14:13;
ζῳοποιεῖσθαι 1 Cor 15:22.

—The formula is esp. common w. verbs that denote a conviction, hope, etc.
πεποιθέναι Gal 5:10; Phil 1:14; 2 Th 3:4.
παρρησίαν ἔχειν Phlm 8.
πέπεισμαι Ro 14:14.
ἐλπίζειν Phil 2:19.
καύχησιν ἔχειν Ro 15:17; 1 Cor 15:31.
τὸ αὐτὸ φρονεῖν Phil 4:2.
ὑπακούειν Eph 6:1.
λαλεῖν 2 Cor 2:17; 12:19.
ἀλήθειαν λέγειν Ro 9:1.
λέγειν καὶ μαρτύρεσθαι Eph 4:17.

But also apart fr. such verbs, in numerous pass. it is used w. verbs and nouns of the most varied sort, often without special emphasis, to indicate
the scope within which someth. takes place or has taken place, or
to designate someth. as being in close assoc. w. Christ,
and can be rendered, variously,

in connection with, in intimate association with, keeping in mind ἁγιάζεσθαι 1 Cor 1:2, or
ἅγιος ἐν Χ. Phil 1:1;
ἀσπάζεσθαί τινα 1 Cor 16:19.
δικαιοῦσθαι Gal 2:17.
κοπιᾶν Ro 16:12.
παρακαλεῖν 1 Th 4:1.
προσδέχεσθαί τινα Ro 16:2; Phil 2:29.
χαίρειν 3:1; 4:4, 10.
γαμηθῆναι ἐν κυρίῳ marry in the Lord=marry a Christian 1 Cor 7:39.

προϊστάμενοι ὑμῶν ἐν κυρίῳ your Christian leaders (in the church) 1 Th 5:12
(but s. προΐστημι 1 and 2).

—εὐάρεστος Col 3:20.
νήπιος 1 Cor 3:1.
φρόνιμος 4:10.
παιδαγωγοί vs. 15.
ὁδοί vs. 17.

Hence used in periphrasis for ‘Christian’
οἱ ὄντες ἐν κυρίῳ Ro 16:11;
ἄνθρωπος ἐν Χ. 2 Cor 12:2;
αἱ ἐκκλησίαι αἱ ἐν Χ. Gal 1:22; 1 Th 2:14;
νεκροὶ ἐν Χ. 4:16;
ἐκλεκτός Ro 16:13.
δόκιμος vs. 10.
δέσμιος Eph 4:1.
πιστὸς διάκονος 6:21;
ἐν Χ. γεννᾶν τινα become someone’s parent in the Christian life 1 Cor 4:15.
τὸ ἔργον μου ὑμεῖς ἐστε ἐν κυρίῳ 9:1.

—The use of ἐν πνεύματι as a formulaic expression is sim.:
[in Spirit]
ἐν πν. εἶναι be under the impulsion of the spirit, i.e. the new self, as opposed to
ἐν σαρκί under the domination of the old self Ro 8:9;
cp. ἐν νόμῳ 2:12.
λαλεῖν speak under divine inspiration 1 Cor 12:3.
ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι I was in a state of inspiration Rv 1:10; 4:2;
opp. ἐν ἑαυτῷ γενόμενος came to himself Ac 12:11 (cp. X., An. 1, 5, 17 et al.).

—The expr. ἐν πν. εἶναι is also used to express the idea that someone is
under the special infl. of
a good or even an undesirable spirit: Mt 22:43; Mk 12:36; Lk 2:27; 1 Cor 12:3; Rv 17:3; 21:10. ἄνθρωπος ἐν πν. ἀκαθάρτῳ [in unclean spirit] (ὤν) Mk 1:23 .

—ἐν τῷ πονηρῷ κεῖσθαι be in the power of the evil one 1J 5:19.
οἱ ἐν νόμῳ those who are subject to the law Ro 3:19.
ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ ἀποθνῄσκειν die because of a connection w. Adam 1 Cor 15:22.

—On the formula ἐν ὀνόματι (Χριστοῦ) [in name of Christ]
The OT is the source of the expr. ὀμνύναι ἔν τινι swear by someone or someth. (oft. LXX) Mt 5:34ff; 23:16, 18ff; Rv 10:6;
παραγγέλλομέν σοι ἐν Ἰησοῦ Ac 19:14 v.l.
The usage in ὁμολογεῖν ἔν τινι acknowledge someone Mt 10:32; Lk 12:8 (s. ὁμολογέω 4b) is Aramaic.


-------------------

How could they fall from Christ if that were impossible?

The text does not say "fall from Christ."
I suggest that you major on texts that say save, salvation, Savior; or receive eternal life, instead of jumping to conclusions where that language is not used.

John does say,
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
Why can't you believe it?
Why write off the SAvior as a mere chance-giver.

Trust the Savior today: Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

1st The phrase, "May have eternal life." "May" means 'permission to' such as in the sentence, "You may come in." It does not imply that the person already is in or will stay in, but even though permission is granted, it still requires action on your part. "May" also means 'the possibility of'. Such as in the sentence, "It may rain today. "May" is not a word used to describe something that is definite or absolute, but possible. If you don't believe then it is not even possible for you to be saved, but if you do believe then it is possible for you to be saved. I can believe all I want that if I exercise I will lose weight, but believing it means nothing if I don't actually do it. And if someone said to me, "You may use my home gym so you can get fit." Does not mean that believing and having permission, in and of itself, makes me automatically fit.

You are speculating on the meaning of "may," apparently based on English; but the Bible is written in Greek. If you will quote a verse from the Bible we can discuss it. Similarly with the word "should." Generally there is no word in Greek "may" or "should" in such contexts. The subjunctive mood in Greek is sometimes translated using may or should in conditional sentences.

There are many many verses that offer salvation for believing or faith, where there is no "may" or "should" in it.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. (No mays or maybes).

What must I do to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be.

These are promises of God, no mays or maybes.

Then you go on, just opining things without Bible proof. If you quote verses, we may be able to discuss.

Believing is the only thing man need do to be saved. This is reiterated so many times in the Bible that the verses are more than a CC post box will accept.

Demons believe- does that mean they will inherit salvation? Absolutely not. (James 2:19).

That statement indicates a misunderstanding of saving faith. Saving faith is not believing that something is so, it is trusting the Savior with this promise:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

A bit of the evidence:


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

 

[Butch5]

Noah was saved by wood that was made into a boat. The others were baptized and died and Noah's feet did not get wet, He was on the ark made of wood. The wood represents the cross and by the cross we are saved and not by taking a bath.

How did that boat save Noah from an that evil world?

 

[Butch5]

You are speculating on the meaning of "may," apparently based on English; but the Bible is written in Greek. If you will quote a verse from the Bible we can discuss it. Similarly with the word "should." Generally there is no word in Greek "may" or "should" in such contexts. The subjunctive mood in Greek is sometimes translated using may or should in conditional sentences.

There are many many verses that offer salvation for believing or faith, where there is no "may" or "should" in it.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. (No mays or maybes).

What must I do to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be.

These are promises of God, no mays or maybes.

Then you go on, just opining things without Bible proof. If you quote verses, we may be able to discuss.

Believing is the only thing man need do to be saved. This is reiterated so many times in the Bible that the verses are more than a CC post box will accept.



That statement indicates a misunderstanding of saving faith. Saving faith is not believing that something is so, it is trusting the Savior with this promise:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

A bit of the evidence:


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

This is the fallacy of Contextomy.

[h=1]Fallacy of quoting out of context[/h]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy", is an informal fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.[SUP][1][/SUP] Contextomies are stereotypically intentional, but may also occur accidentally if someone misinterprets the meaning and omits something essential to clarifying it, thinking it non-essential.

 

[Butch5]

It is not a red herring.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already. 4 Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they as of the world, and the world heareth them.

It certainly is. It doesn't address the subject.

And from your rhetorical question, I take it that you do not believe in either the God of the Bible nor in the Lord Jesus. As The God of the Bible is the Triune God; Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

You didn't answer the question. How is "He" singular three which is plural. You keep asking me about the Trinity, why not answer the question?

How does your up & saying something absurd prove anything? How can you escape the conclusion of eternal when a categorical time word is applied to God? He is aionios; he is eternal. Aionios is the Greek word for eternal as Greek lexicons state and give so many contextual examples.

This is begging the question. How do you know God is eternal?

Scripture does not show any such thing. You have not proven that aionios does not mean eternal. Your merely saying it, proves nothing; it is just you saying something. You are not scripture. The evidence of
1) the word describing God,
2) the lexicons and
3) all the translations that render it "eternal,"
is conclusive proof.

None of these are proof, let alone conclusive proof. I've already posted Scripture showing that it's not eternal.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)

Those cities are not still burning.

Rom 10: "according to the commandment of the eternal [aionios] God
To say that aionios there means that God is a temporary being is aburd. It can mean nothing but eternal here.

This is a straw man and suggests to me that you've not studied this in depth.

1 Pet 5:

And the God of all grace, who called you unto his eternal glory in Christ,

To claim that God's glory is temporary instead of eternal is absurd. God is immutable. He always has been glorious & always shall be.

The lexicon is correct, and you have no proof to the contrary.

And when the Lord says that He gives eternal life that the recipients will never perish, that proves that aionios means eternal or everlasting.

None of this proves that aionios means eternal because it doesn't. I've already given Scripture and could provide quite a bit more.

 

[Butch5]

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the
Father and of the
Son and of the
Holy Spirit."

The heresiarch Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father, infecting most of the Church, necessitating the Council of Nicae (325 A.D.) which clarified the Doctrine of the Trinity. It was not "invented" at this council, but ruled out Arius's abuse of scripture.

There is nothing in scripture that states that only doctrines found explicitly in scripture are trustworthy, that is a ddoctrine in itself. At the same time, no one individual has the authority to dream up doctrines either.

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.


John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.


John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.


John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.


John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.


John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.


John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.


John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.


Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).


Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.


Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.


Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.


Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.


Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.


Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
Scripture Catholic - SALVATION

Hi Kepha,

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

 

[Atwood]

It certainly is. It doesn't address the subject.

You referred to a "He," thus it is valid to ask you who the He be.

So Butch I take it that you deny the Trinity; thus when you speak of God & the Lord Jesus, you don't even mean what the Bible means by it. So why argue other matters until you figure out who God is? You have to confess that Jesus is YHWH, agree with God on that one for starters, have the object of faith adequately defined.

How do you know God is eternal?

Scripture:

There is none like unto God, O Jeshurun, Who rideth upon the heavens for thy help,
And in his excellency on the skies.
The eternal God is thy dwelling-place,
And underneath are the everlasting arms.

None of these are proof, let alone conclusive proof. I've already posted Scripture showing that it's not eternal.

Your saying it proves nothing. How do you know that none of these are proof?
And BTW, how do you know what is truth at all?

You haven't posted any scripture that proves "not eternal." You have vociferated on the subject.

And why do you refer to scripture? Do you believe that the Bible is infallible? Or are you playing games?

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)

Sodom & G are an example

πρόκεινται δεῖγμα πυρὸς αἰωνίου δίκην ὑπέχουσαι.

are set forth (as) an example of eternal fire punishment suffering.

S & G are set forth as an example of eternal fire, suffering punishment.


NIV: Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

cities are not still burning.

No, but S & G gave a picture of the fire which is eternal.

Lexicons disagree with you, Butch.
God is eternal, & the term is used for Him in His relationship to time.
And you have no proof for your canards on aionios.

I wrote up a paper onαἰώνιος in graduate school long ago.