John Teaches Eternal Security; Demonic To Deny It
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Question: Which is inspired, Scripture or the Lexicon?
Question: Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)
Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of Aionios fire and they're not still burning. Therefore Aionios doesn't mean eternal.
The Lexicons are just another instance of theologians translating through their theololical preupoositions.
He uses the term aionios life. Aionios means age. In order to understand this one needs a Jewish perspective. One has to understand how the Jews saw time. The word in the OT that corresponds to aion, is owlam and it basically means, time unseen. Here is a link to a basic understanding of owlam. It's this idea of olam that was translated with the Greek word aion.
A word only means what it means. And etymology is not the final determiner of meaning; rather it is usage. (Who would explain understand from under + stand?) An aion is an age. But aionios is used to refer to God, who is certainly eternal & not just aged!
This is not a matter of how Jews saw time, as if you could go back in a Tardis with Dr. Who & interview 1000 Jews to take a pole. The Bible is a matter of divine revelation. The OT is revelation from God, not "how Jews saw things."
This is not a matter of how Jews saw time, as if you could go back in a Tardis with Dr. Who & interview 1000 Jews to take a pole. The Bible is a matter of divine revelation. The OT is revelation from God, not "how Jews saw things."
One of his own volition believes and one of his own volition can quit believing. There is no guarantee of salvation even if one quits believing.
God does not absolutely hold them in His hand if they become unfaithful in the hearing and following Christ.
You posted: The promise is that if one presently believes, one in the future will live. There is nothing about "not live" in the passage. You make things up.
Notice how you used the conditional word "IF" yourself? IF IF IF one continues to believe he shall live but IF IF IF one quits believing he shall not live. There is no guarantee one will live IF he quits believing.
God does not absolutely hold them in His hand if they become unfaithful in the hearing and following Christ.
You posted: The promise is that if one presently believes, one in the future will live. There is nothing about "not live" in the passage. You make things up.
Notice how you used the conditional word "IF" yourself? IF IF IF one continues to believe he shall live but IF IF IF one quits believing he shall not live. There is no guarantee one will live IF he quits believing.
Red Herring
Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.
[h=4]Description of Red Herring[/h]A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.
Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.
[h=4]Description of Red Herring[/h]A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.
As the KJV has Jn 3:16 whosoever believeth SHOULD not perish but have everlasting life with SHOULD be subjunctive mood showing everlasting life is conditional upon if one continues to believe or not.
Compared to the NIV that ignores the subjunctive mood and replace it with indicative mood:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
According to the NIV a person SHALL not perish even if they quit believing.
Compared to the NIV that ignores the subjunctive mood and replace it with indicative mood:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
According to the NIV a person SHALL not perish even if they quit believing.
You're reading your theology into the definition. That's what the translators do. Yes, aionios is used of God, does that mean that it means eternal? The word Love is used of God, does the word love mean eternal? No, it doesn't. So just because a word is used of God doesn't mean that the word means eternal.
Since we are dealing with a text from the first century is it most important that we understand that text the way it was understood in the first century, not today.
Since we are dealing with a text from the first century is it most important that we understand that text the way it was understood in the first century, not today.
1 Jn 2:19 does not prove eternal security. A few verses later John writes (using the conditional word "IF":
Verse 24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall (subjunctive mood) remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
Their continuing in the Son depends upon the circumstance if what they heard (gospel word) remains in hem or not.
Verse 24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall (subjunctive mood) remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
Their continuing in the Son depends upon the circumstance if what they heard (gospel word) remains in hem or not.
Matthew 23 sums all this up with divine precision.
Eternal security either you have it or you don't. Either the Holy Spirit witnesses with your spirit that you are Christ's or you are without the witness.
Churches are full of non-Christians worshipping God without any knowledge of God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Eternal security either you have it or you don't. Either the Holy Spirit witnesses with your spirit that you are Christ's or you are without the witness.
Churches are full of non-Christians worshipping God without any knowledge of God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
O
but it was first given to a world that saw both time and individuality far differently than we do. we might do better to try to know what the original readers understood when they read the scriptures. take a look at The Social world of luke-acts for some interesting ideas on what the words we read from the vantage point of the 21st century meant to the crowds that first heard them.
This time the Sea Bass failed utterly, as he quoted no scriptural proof for his claims.
Now if you have a passage that says a man of his own volition can quit believing, post it -- if you can't then retract.
Now quote us some verses on volition. How about, The King's heart is in the hand of the Lord, . . ., He turns it whithersoever He will.
And quote the one where the Lord says He prayed for Peter that Peter's faith fail not.
And quote how the Lord Jesus is the Christian's advocate.
The if is if you presently believe, the then is a future (no more if, once the present if you believe is fulfilled): If you squeeze the trigger, a bullet will fly out the gun & hit the target. Too late to change once the trigger is pulled in present tense.
Whosoever believes [NO WATER, NO WORKS] . . . eternal life.
What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved. There are 10 words in "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved." Not one of them is an IF. Believe now & future is saved.
Now if you have a passage that says a man of his own volition can quit believing, post it -- if you can't then retract.
Now quote us some verses on volition. How about, The King's heart is in the hand of the Lord, . . ., He turns it whithersoever He will.
And quote the one where the Lord says He prayed for Peter that Peter's faith fail not.
And quote how the Lord Jesus is the Christian's advocate.
The if is if you presently believe, the then is a future (no more if, once the present if you believe is fulfilled): If you squeeze the trigger, a bullet will fly out the gun & hit the target. Too late to change once the trigger is pulled in present tense.
Whosoever believes [NO WATER, NO WORKS] . . . eternal life.
What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved. There are 10 words in "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved." Not one of them is an IF. Believe now & future is saved.
Atwood asked Butch:
Butch, just who is this "He" to whom you refer, namely the Lord Jesus? Can you confess that He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who became a man in the flesh, died on the cross, and rose bodily from the dead?
You used the word "He." Thus it is quite proper to ask you who this He is.
Butch, just who is this "He" to whom you refer, namely the Lord Jesus? Can you confess that He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who became a man in the flesh, died on the cross, and rose bodily from the dead?
It is noted that you did not confess the Lord Jesus.
1 John 4:
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.
I am asking of you on this Christian forum to confess your Christ. Who is this He?
Is He 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who become man with flesh & blood, went to the cross, died, was buried, & rose from the dead in the body that was buried, but transformed???
Butch, just who is this "He" to whom you refer, namely the Lord Jesus? Can you confess that He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who became a man in the flesh, died on the cross, and rose bodily from the dead?
You used the word "He." Thus it is quite proper to ask you who this He is.
Butch, just who is this "He" to whom you refer, namely the Lord Jesus? Can you confess that He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who became a man in the flesh, died on the cross, and rose bodily from the dead?
It is noted that you did not confess the Lord Jesus.
1 John 4:
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.
I am asking of you on this Christian forum to confess your Christ. Who is this He?
Is He 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who become man with flesh & blood, went to the cross, died, was buried, & rose from the dead in the body that was buried, but transformed???
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It is not a bad question, older, but one needs to be careful in trying to answer it. It can be easy to dream up what the original hearers understood, since we have no time machine & have very limited contemporary data. How many recordings do we have of speech from the time around AD 30? We should not be dreaming up the minds of inaccessible people and recreating a fantasy world.
Thus we do consider lexical data from the Greek language -- but also we know that the words were probably uttered by the Lord Jesus in Aramaic. So what we have is the Holy Spirit's gist of what He said. And the best context for understanding it is reading the rest of what the Spirit has given us, namely the rest of the Bible, a revelation from God, given with His understanding that persons of many nations over many generations down to today would be reading it and seeking to know His meaning.
So we check the use of aion & aionios in the Bible & Greek writings as close as possible to the time. We note that God is aionios; He is eternal, not just aged.
Thus we do consider lexical data from the Greek language -- but also we know that the words were probably uttered by the Lord Jesus in Aramaic. So what we have is the Holy Spirit's gist of what He said. And the best context for understanding it is reading the rest of what the Spirit has given us, namely the rest of the Bible, a revelation from God, given with His understanding that persons of many nations over many generations down to today would be reading it and seeking to know His meaning.
So we check the use of aion & aionios in the Bible & Greek writings as close as possible to the time. We note that God is aionios; He is eternal, not just aged.
The issue of "abiding in" is fellowship, not connection to the Body of Christ. And the word "in" has a number of meanings. Neither is it logical to deny an antecedent (simple logical fallacy; if A, then B does not prove if not A, then not B.)
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for
if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us.
But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John is clear that those who trust Christ as Savior have eternal security; they have eternal life & do not perish.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for
if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us.
But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John is clear that those who trust Christ as Savior have eternal security; they have eternal life & do not perish.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.