Yahshua's Glory Before the Foundation of the World
Does This Mean He Pre-existed?
By Voy Wilks
2/4/89
"And now, Father, glorify thou me in
thy own presence with the
glory which I had with thee before the
world was made" (
Jn. 17:5 RSV).
"Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me
before the the foundation of the world" (
Jn. 17:24).
It is clear that Yahweh the Supreme Being planned to send a Savior, so in this sense Yahshua pre-existed before the world was made - in Yahweh's plan. Did Yahshua pre-exist bodily, as a Deity, before the world was made?
First we must never forget that Yahweh was alone in creating the earth - the universe. No other Mighty One, no other Deity, was with him.
He alone created everything. This was still true in the days of Isaiah the Prophet. Yahweh alone (the Supreme Being) was the only El, the only Eloah, the only true Elohim and the only Yahweh who existed at that time (
Isa. 37:16;
40:12-31;
42:5-8;
43:1-15;
44:6;
44:24;
45:5-18;
46:5-9;
48:9-13;
51:12-16). There was no others (
Mk. 12:29-33). All through the O.T. this is the song of the prophets and the saints. The N.T. message must agree with this, for the N.T. relies on the O.T. for its life, its very being. In view of this, and the Scripture references by Isaiah the Prophet (noted above), let us examine other N.T. Scriptures which are very similar to Jn. 17:5,24.
"He [the Messiah] was
destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of times for your sake" (
1 Peter. 1:20 RSV).
The KJV states this more impressively, if possible, than does the RSV. The message is,
before the foundation of the world, Yahweh
destined (planned) that a Savior would come, but it was only in Peter's day that he was made manifest to men. In what way was he manifested? In flesh and blood (
verse 19). The fact that he "was made manifest" only in Peter's day is an indication that he did
not exist (except in plan) before the earth was made, and certainly not as Deity; not the El or the Yahweh who spoke to the Prophets of old (
Heb. 1:1). Notice another Scripture, please.
"... and they that dwell on earth shall wonder, whose names are not written in the book of life
from the foundation of the world, ..." (
Rev. 17:8).
"... and all who dwell on earth shall worship [the beast], every one whose name has not been
written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain" (
Rev. 13:8 RSV).
Here we see that
the saints were written in the book of life
before the foundation of the world. Does this mean the saints had a pre-existence? Did the saints live as deity before the earth was made? No. What happened is, before the earth was made, Yahweh created the book of life and
planned that some would (eventually) be recorded there, by individual names. In the same way, he planned for a Savior,
even before the world was made. But the KJV reads a little differently in Rev. 13:8.
"And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (
Rev 13:8 KJV).
This indicates
Yahshua the Lamb was "slain before" the earth was made. Did this happen? No, but it was in Yahweh's plan before the world was made to send a Redeemer who would be slain for the sins of men, as Scripture reveals:
"But when the
fullness of time was come, Yahweh sent forth his Son,
MADE of a woman made under the law, to
redeem them that are under the law, ..." (
Gal. 4:4,5).
"The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Soon after creation, Adam and Eve transgressed, so Yahweh slew an animal and made clothing for them. From what? Probably a lamb, a sheep. Allegorically then, Yahshua (the Lamb) was slain
from the foundation of the world, a sacrifice; "... without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (
Heb. 9:22). Let us compare other (and similar) Scriptures.
"Then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom
prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (
Mt. 25:34).
"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation" (
Lk. 11:50). Abel must have been the first.
"For
we are his workmanship, created in Yahshua Messiah unto good works, which Yahweh hath
before ordained that
we should walk in them" (
Eph. 2:10).
"For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although his works were finished
from the foundation of the world" (
Heb. 4:3).
"Blessed be the Elohim and Father of our Savior Yahshua Messiah, who has blessed us in heavenly places, even as
he CHOSE US in him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He
destined US in love to be his sons through Yahshua Messiah, according the the
purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according the the riches of his grace which is lavished upon us. For he was made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will,
according to his purpose which he set forth in the Messiah
as a plan for the
fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him
according to his purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the council of his will,
we who first hoped in Messiah
have been DESTINED and
appointed to live for the praise of his glory" (
Eph. 1:3-12 RSV).
Obviously, you and I did not have a pre-existence before the world was made
except in Yahweh's plan. This was true also of Yahshua Messiah. Just as Yahweh planned (destined) some (
us, you and I) to eventually become sons,
even before the world was made, so he planned for a Savior (a Redeemer) to appear "in the fullness of time," to save those who "live for the praise of his glory."
Note: This is not to say we do not have a choice. Certainly we do have a choice, just as Israel had a choice. "... I set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore
choose life, that you and your descendants may live,
loving Yahweh your Elohim, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him, for that means life to you ..." (
Deut. 30:19,20).
Conclusion
The Apostle Paul wrote that Yahweh "... calleth those witch thing be not as though they were" (
Rom. 4:17B). He uses Abraham as an example: "
I have made thee a father of many nations" This was even before Abraham (
Rom. 4:17A from
Gen. 17:5). This was even before Abraham fathered his son Isaac. Once Yahweh plans something, it is certain to happen, so he sometimes speaks of it as if it has already come to pass. This is true of the glory which Yahweh planned of his Son Yahshua,
and for you and me,
if we choose life. He
chose us before the foundation of the world. This being true, Jn. 17:5, 24 does not promote the pre-existence.The Redeemer received Yahweh's glory by being in his glorious
plan to be accomplished in future centuries. Therefore, Yahshua as Redeemer looked forward to enjoying this glorious face to face with the Father ("in thy own presence"
Jn. 17:5) which he had in Yahweh's
plans before the world existed.
We too, were chosen and destined "before the foundation of the world."
Does Hebrews 1:1-2; Colossians 1:16-17 & John 1:10 Say That Yahshua Was Involved in the Creation of the World?
Please note how these passages are translated in the Emphatic Diaglott Greek Interlinear.
Diaglott, Hebrews 1:1-2
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts and in many ways long ago the God having spoken to the fathers by the prophets, in last of the days of these spoke to us by a son,
Hebrews 1:2 whom he appointed an heir of all things, (on account of whom also the ages he made,)
Diaglott, Colossians 1:16-17
Colossians 1:16 because in him were created the things all, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones, or lordships, or governments, or authorities; the things all on account of him and for him have been created;
Colossians 1:17 and he is in advance of all, and the things all in him has been placed together;
Diaglott, John 1:10
John 1:10 In the world he was, and the world through him was, and the world him not knew.
The Greek word di' or dia which is translated 'by' in the A.K.J.V. and 'through' in the R.S.V. in Hebrews 1:2 is translated 'on account of' in the Emphatic Diaglott.
This changes the meaning of this passage of Hebrews 1:1-2 considerably from how the K.J.V. and the A.S.V. translates. It does not say that Yahshua was involved in the creation of the world, but that the world was created "on account of" of him. This translation brings Hebrews 1:2 in harmony with the entire context of Scripture, in that it was Father Yahweh Who created the heavens and the earth ALONE (cf.
Psalm 121:1,
33:6-9;
Isayah 44:24) . Following is how the K.J.V. and the R.S.V. translates Hebrews 1:2.
K.J.V., Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
R.S.V., Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Now, I ask you, are you going to ignore the entire context of Scripture where it is said that Father Yahweh ALONE created the heavens and the earth for how a translator may have translated a word in a few passages?
Even Yahshua himself credited Father Yahweh for the creation of Adam and Eve, not even so much as mentioning that he had any hand in creating them.
Have you not read, that He Who made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, (
Matthew 19:4;
Genesis 1:27).
Yahshua surely had an involvement in the creation of the heavens and the earth in that Father Yahweh had him in mind, but he had no hand in the actual creation in the beginning. He was not a "co-creator" with Father Yahweh in the beginning as many deceptively teach. He did not even "pre-exist" with Father Yahweh, nor was he Father Yahweh. Yahshua was Father Yahweh's son as Scripture teaches.
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The First & the Last
By Voy Wilks
The following is an excerpt from Did Our Savior Pre-exist? By John Cordaro and was revised as of 1/16/06.
OLD GLORY
Following on the heels of the above, John 17:5 states, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Was this glory as the second person of the "Trinity" or is there something here that many people miss?
Yahshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yahshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yahshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yahshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."
Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yahshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).
It is especially intriguing to find Yahshua praying to the Father, that He would let the disciples share in this glory (John 17:24) and then he in turn mentions the foundation of the world. The disciples would indeed share in the glory of the crucifixion by having their sins washed away, but they definitely did not share Yahshua's glory by themselves being involved in a trinitarian being.
The glory that Yahshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yahshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yahshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, "These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' " Yahshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yahshua in turn glorifying the Father.
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