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You supported my post about the oneness of God, but now it sounds like you are viewing The Father and Son as two seperate entities. Which is it?
jesus is not God
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You supported my post about the oneness of God, but now it sounds like you are viewing The Father and Son as two seperate entities. Which is it?
The Scriptures nowhere tell us that before He (Yahweh) laid the
foundations of the world that He planned that He would one day walk the earth as a
man, the Son, and that he would sacrifice His own body and shed His own blood for the
sins of man.
YAHSHUA: DID HE PRE-EXIST?
An Explanation Of Our Views
By Voy Wilks
10/23/90
Did the Messiah pre-exist in some form before he was conceived of Mary, the Jewish woman? Many people believe he did, while many believe he did not. Most if not all of these people seem to rely on the same source of information - the Bible, so why isn't there complete agreement, since all read from the same source? There are several reasons for non-conformity, some of which are as follows:
There are a number of Scriptures which seem to promote the pre-existence of the Messiah. Surely the most powerful of these is Hebrews 1:2.
Hebrews 1:1 & 2
"In many and various ways Yahweh spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world" (RSV).
This indicates the heavenly Father is supreme.
(1) As most English versions read, he authorized the Son, Yahshua, to do the actual work in creating the heavens and the earth and all things in them.
(2) Many believe that Yahshua, in a pre-existent state, was Yahweh's spokesman; a Son spoke for him and did Yahweh's work for him, such as creating the world.
If either of the statements are true - if Yahshua spoke the world into existence - then certainly the Messiah existed before the world existed. Let us now examine Hebrews 1:1,2.
What is a spokesman? "One who speaks in the name and on behalf of another or others" (Readers Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1975).
Reviewing Heb 1:1 we see that Yahshua was not Yahweh's spokesman. Instead, the prophets were his spokesmen. Yahweh "spoke to our fathers by the prophets." Therefore, even if Yahshua pre-existed, he was not the spokesman who contacted "our fathers." It was, evidently, only in "these last days" that Yahweh "spoke to us by his Son" (Heb 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:20).
Yahshua the Heir
"... but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, ..." (Heb. 1:2).
What does this say? Yahweh appointed his Son (Yahshua) to be his heir - to inherit "all things." Please keep in mind: A son does not inherit property which he, himself, has worked for. No. He owns that already. This indicates that Yahshua did not, after all, create the world, since he is the heir to his Father's property. Does this agree with other Scriptures? Indeed, yes. Please note the following evidence:
"Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge about it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into a far country. When the season of fruit drew near. he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. AFTERWARD he SENT HIS SON to them, saying, they will respect my son. But when the tenants saw the son they said to themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his INHERITANCE. And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" (Mt 21:33-40 Mk. 12:1-7; Lk. 20:9-16).
The following points are clear:
Obviously, Yahshua is both the Son and the Heir; not the owner, nor the householder. True, this is a parable, but in order to teach truth, a parable must agree with prevailing conditions. Other Scriptures - Other Scriptures which are not parables - agree with Hebrews 1:2 that Yahshua is the heir of Father Yahweh's property.
"For all who are lead by the spirit of Yahweh are sons of Yahweh. ... and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and FELLOW HEIRS WITH the Messiah, ..." (Rom. 8:14,17).
"... for in Messiah Yahshua you are all sons of Yahweh, through faith. For as many as were baptized into the Messiah have put on the Messiah. ... And if you are the Messiah's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:26,27,29). So through Yahweh you are no longer a slave but a son and if a son then an heir" (Gal. 4:7).
We inherit the promise made to Abraham: the kingdom (the world, the vineyard), and everlasting life, because Yahshua is the chief heir. By baptism in his name we, and the ancients, become fellow heirs with the Messiah (Gal. 3:16-19; Titus 3:7; Heb 11:7-10; Acts 20:32; 7:5,6; Rom. 4:13; Eph. 1:3-23; 1 Peter 1:3,4; Rev. 21:5-7).
Remember the mother of James and John? She asked the Savior to grant that her two sons will set, one on Yahshua's right and one on his left in the Kingdom of Yahweh. Yahshua's reply: (the heavenly Father), being the Creator, is owner of all, while Yahshua (his Son) is the heir.
"I will tell of the decrees of Yahweh: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I [Yahweh] have begotten you. Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession" (Ps. 2:7-9; Heb. 5:5).
Again, this shows Yahweh as both Father and Creator, and Yahshua as both Son and the Heir. Ephesians 1:3-23 also shows Yahweh to be the Creator, the Father, and the owner of the inheritance. One day Yahshua will receive this inheritance, and make us (the saints, (Jew and Gentile) joint heirs with himself. Again, the following quotation reveals Yahweh as the provider and owner of the inheritance. Yahshua extends to us a share as joint heirs.
"For every house is builded by someone; but he that built all things is Yahweh" (Heb. 3:4 Bethel Edition).
These Scriptures are more than enough to confirm Yahweh as Creator and Yahshua his Son will one day inherit his Father's property - his Father's creation.
Continued ...
By Whom He Made The Worlds
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
BY WHOM also he made the worlds; ..." (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The RSV reads, "... through whom he created the world."
This very clearly states the world was created By the Son of Yahweh. This Son is Yahshua, of course. However, Scriptural evidence noted above indicates Yahweh did the creating, not Yahshua. Are we to believe the apostles and the Gospel writers wrote two ways, sometimes reporting that Yahweh is Creator, and at other times reporting that his Son is Creator? Indeed no.
More than 100 Scriptures state clearly that Yahweh is Creator and Maker of heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11). Some of these indicate that no other deity exist (Isa. 44:6). No other deity helped him in his creating acts (Neh. 9:6). Except for the angels, he was alone in the creation (Isa. 45:5-18). These are stated clearly - as clearly as Hebrews 1:2 states that Yahshua made the world."
What shall we do? Do we cancel (erase, throw out) more than 100 Scriptures so that we can accept Hebrews 1:2 instead? Since this Scripture does not in most English versions agree with the 100, we should carefully examine Hebrews 1:2 and, hopefully, discover why it does not agree. The Word "By"
Yahweh created the world "by" (through) the Son (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The Diaglott says Yahweh created the world "on account of" the Son. Any one of the three ("by," "through," or "on account of") is, technically, a correct translation of the Greek word Di' or Dia. Dia is in the KJV translated several ways, but usually is translated as follows:
By - 243 times; through - 100 times; for - 106 times; because - 24 times; because of - 29 times; for the sake of - 32 times; etc.
The King's Men did not translate the WORD di' incorrectly in Heb. 1:2. By or through is a correct translation of the WORD, but ONLY IF THE MESSAGE in the sentence agrees, or allows it. But alas, in this case the message of the sentence will not allow this translation.
Reason #1. Heb 1:2a reveals Yahshua to be the heir of what was created.
Reason #2. More than 100 Scriptures show it was Yahweh (not Yahshua) who created the heavens and the earth. Heb. 1:2 must agree with the 100 other Scriptures. For a list of these [ask for] our paper, "Who Is the Creator?"
For these reasons, the sentence in Heb. 1:2b must have
originally read like the Diaglott reads today, Yahweh "... in the last of these days spoke to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, ON ACCOUNT OF whom also he constituted the ages; ..."
Another acceptable translation would be, "... a Son, FOR whom he created the world."
Many times the King James Version as well as more modern versions translate dia as "for," "because of," "therefore" (meaning "for this reason"). For a more detailed layout of the word di' (dia), ask for our paper, "Hebrews 1:2 - Berry."
This is not to say the the King's Men purposely mistranslated, nor is this to say they were dishonest. Not at all. On the contrary, they no doubt delivered what they believed to be the correct translation of Heb. 1:2. We must realize, however, that all of the King's Men believed the doctrine of the Trinity (one is three, and three are one). Believing this, they saw no contradiction between this Scripture (as they translated it) and the 100 Scriptures which show that Yahweh the Father is truly and personally the Creator of the heaven and earth.
There are at least two other Scriptures in which di' should have been translated for, or on account of. These are Col. 1:16-17 and John 1:10. Let us review these Scriptures, then return to our study in the book of Hebrews.
Colossians 1:16,17
"For by him [Yahshua] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, ... all things were created by him and for him" (Col. 1:16,17 KJV).
Just as in Heb. 1:2, di' can be translated for, and on account of, as well as by or through. As indicated above, either way is technically correct for this WORD. However, the MESSAGE in this text must decide which is the proper translation. The same is true of the Greek word en (= the English in).
Since Yahweh is the Creator (Heb. 3:4; Ex. 20:11; Mt. 21:33; Mk. 12:7; Lk. 20:14), and Yahshua is the heir, then Col. 1:16,17 SHOULD TELL THE SAME STORY. Dozens of Scriptures in both Testaments tell us plainly that Yahweh is the Creator, and there is no other El but but him. He alone is the only true El, Eloah, Elohim, and Creator.
Yahshua and the New Testament writers proved everything by Old Testament Scriptures, therefore New Testament Scriptures should (and originally did) agree with Old Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures are based on the older ones. This being true, it seems that a more exact reading of Col. 1:16,17, and one which is agreeable to the Greek text, is as follows:
"For in [en = in, to, unto, as well as by] him were all things created, that are in [en] heaven, and that are on earth, ... all things were created on account of [di'] him and for him."
John 1:10
"He [the Light, Yahshua] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not" (KJV).
As we have discovered above, to agree with other Scriptures, and with the context of the message, a more acceptable reading is as follows:
"He was in the world and the world was made for {di'} [on account of, because of] him, and the world knew him not."
Look back to the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 1:8-10
"But unto the Son he sayeth, Thy throne, O G-d, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore G-d, even thy G-d, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And thou, L-rd, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thy hands" (KJV).
As the KJV and the RSV read, this certainly indicates the Son (Yahshua) is the Creator of heaven and earth, which means he not only existed at the time of creation, but was also Deity. Once again, however, the translators evidently did not grasp the true message because they were sold on the doctrine of the Trinity. This translation will not stand the test of other Scriptures. The Moffatt Translation reads as follows:
"He [Yahweh, verse 5] says of the Son, 'G-d [the Father, Yahweh] is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal septre is the septre of equity: thou [the Son] hast loved justice and hated lawlessness, therefore G-d, the G-d, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' - and, 'Thou [Yahweh] didst found the earth at the beginning, O L-rd [Yahweh], and the heavens are the work of thy hands; ...'" (Heb. 1:8-10, Moffatt).
Two quotations from the Psalms are included in these verses.
"Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. You royal sceptre is a sceptre of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore G-d, your G-d has anointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows; ..." (Ps. 45:6,7 RSV). It is interesting to read the footnote in the RSV: "Your throne is a throne of God, ..." (verse 6). Now for the other quotation.
"Of Old thou (Yahweh, Verses 1, 12, 18] didst lay the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of they hands. They [the heavens and the earth] will perish, but thou dost endure; they will all wear out like a garment. Thou changest them like raiment, and they pass away; but thou [Yahweh] art the same, and thy years have no end" (Ps. 102:25-27 RSV).
As indicated above [with brackets], these verses speak of Yahweh as Creator - not Yahshua. Yahshua's years did, indeed, come to an end. Not so those of the Father, Yahweh. His years never end. He lives forever; past; present, and future. Usually overlooked are the following points: Hebrews Chapter Two
The writer of the letter of Hebrews was not only concerned about the creation of the past. He also spoke "of the world to come" - the inheritance of the Saints which is yet future (Heb. 2:5).
Man (mankind) was for a little while made a little lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6,7; Ps. 8:4-8). Yahshua too (the same as other men, was for a little while made lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9).
Everything was originally put in subjection to mankind except the plan of salvation, which was only later developed through Yahshua, the Messiah (Heb. 2:8,9).
Yahshua "tasted death" for everyone, thus witnessing the grace of Yahweh toward all men (Heb. 2:9).
"For it was fitting that he [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make [
Yahshua] the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim thy name [Yahweh's name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee" (Heb. 2:10-12; Ps. 22:22 RSV).
Do I detect here a statement showing that Yahshua had the same origin as other men? I believe so. About half of the English versions read this way. The word "origin" is not in the Greek, but is implied evidently. This agrees with other statements made in the verses below.
The children (mankind) share in flesh and blood. Yahshua is likewise of the same nature. This was so he could free his brethern who through fear of death were (are) in lifelong bondage (Heb. 2:14,15).
It is not with angels that Yahweh is concerned, but with the descendants of Abraham, therefore he (Yahshua) had to be made like his brethern IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful high priest (Heb. 2:16,17). Another Scripture speaking of Yahshua, reveals that the spiritual body does not come first (as in a pre-existence). No. The PHYSICAL body comes FIRST, and only later comes the SPIRITUAL body (1 Cor. 15:45,46).
He was tempted in everything as we are (Heb. 2:18). If Yahshua had been Deity while on earth, he would have had no temptations.
Yahshua was even more faithful in Yahweh's house than Moses was. Every house has a builder. The builder of all things is Yahweh (Heb.3:1-6). To understand all of the book of Hebrews requires careful study.
The one who wrote it admits it is difficult to understand (Heb. 5:11). Did Yahshua Pre-exist As An Angel?
"For to what angel did Yahweh say, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?'" (Heb. 1:5).
The answer is obvious, never at any time, has Yahweh ever said to an angel, "You are my son." This is emphatically stated, not only here, but in verse 13 as well, "But to what angel has He [Yahweh] ever said, 'Sit at my righthand till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet?'"
"For Yahweh never said to an angel, Thou art my Son; today I have begotten thee, ..." (Heb. 1:5, New English Bible).
Review
If Yahshua pre-existed, he would have necessity have been a spiritual (spirit) being. This creates a problem, however, as a spiritual being can not die. It is an impossibility (Lk. 20:30-35; Deut. 32:40). Scriptures tell us Yahshua was flesh as we are flesh (2 Jn. 7). He had the
same origin as his brethern (Heb 2:12 RSV). He really and truly died - ceased to live (Heb. 2:14; Acts 2:23; Eph. 1:20).
This is powerful evidence that Yahshua did not pre-exist; that he did not live in a former life." To accept the pre-existence of Yahshua is to accept reincarnation; a superstition of the heathen which is unacceptable to our heavenly Father.
Since Yahweh is the Creator and Yahshua is the heir of that which is created;
Since the physical body comes first and only later the spiritual body;
Since a Spiritual body cannot die;
Since Yahshua was never an angel;
Since Yahshua has the same origin as his brethern;
Since Yahshua was subject to death;
It seems reasonable to believe that Yahshua pre-existed neither
Before the foundation of the world, nor
Before his conception within Mary.
He did exist in Yahweh's glorious PLAN from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:5,9-11; John 17:24 RSV).
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
BY WHOM also he made the worlds; ..." (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The RSV reads, "... through whom he created the world."
This very clearly states the world was created By the Son of Yahweh. This Son is Yahshua, of course. However, Scriptural evidence noted above indicates Yahweh did the creating, not Yahshua. Are we to believe the apostles and the Gospel writers wrote two ways, sometimes reporting that Yahweh is Creator, and at other times reporting that his Son is Creator? Indeed no.
More than 100 Scriptures state clearly that Yahweh is Creator and Maker of heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11). Some of these indicate that no other deity exist (Isa. 44:6). No other deity helped him in his creating acts (Neh. 9:6). Except for the angels, he was alone in the creation (Isa. 45:5-18). These are stated clearly - as clearly as Hebrews 1:2 states that Yahshua made the world."
What shall we do? Do we cancel (erase, throw out) more than 100 Scriptures so that we can accept Hebrews 1:2 instead? Since this Scripture does not in most English versions agree with the 100, we should carefully examine Hebrews 1:2 and, hopefully, discover why it does not agree. The Word "By"
Yahweh created the world "by" (through) the Son (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The Diaglott says Yahweh created the world "on account of" the Son. Any one of the three ("by," "through," or "on account of") is, technically, a correct translation of the Greek word Di' or Dia. Dia is in the KJV translated several ways, but usually is translated as follows:
By - 243 times; through - 100 times; for - 106 times; because - 24 times; because of - 29 times; for the sake of - 32 times; etc.
The King's Men did not translate the WORD di' incorrectly in Heb. 1:2. By or through is a correct translation of the WORD, but ONLY IF THE MESSAGE in the sentence agrees, or allows it. But alas, in this case the message of the sentence will not allow this translation.
Reason #1. Heb 1:2a reveals Yahshua to be the heir of what was created.
Reason #2. More than 100 Scriptures show it was Yahweh (not Yahshua) who created the heavens and the earth. Heb. 1:2 must agree with the 100 other Scriptures. For a list of these [ask for] our paper, "Who Is the Creator?"
For these reasons, the sentence in Heb. 1:2b must have
originally read like the Diaglott reads today, Yahweh "... in the last of these days spoke to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, ON ACCOUNT OF whom also he constituted the ages; ..."
Another acceptable translation would be, "... a Son, FOR whom he created the world."
Many times the King James Version as well as more modern versions translate dia as "for," "because of," "therefore" (meaning "for this reason"). For a more detailed layout of the word di' (dia), ask for our paper, "Hebrews 1:2 - Berry."
This is not to say the the King's Men purposely mistranslated, nor is this to say they were dishonest. Not at all. On the contrary, they no doubt delivered what they believed to be the correct translation of Heb. 1:2. We must realize, however, that all of the King's Men believed the doctrine of the Trinity (one is three, and three are one). Believing this, they saw no contradiction between this Scripture (as they translated it) and the 100 Scriptures which show that Yahweh the Father is truly and personally the Creator of the heaven and earth.
There are at least two other Scriptures in which di' should have been translated for, or on account of. These are Col. 1:16-17 and John 1:10. Let us review these Scriptures, then return to our study in the book of Hebrews.
Colossians 1:16,17
"For by him [Yahshua] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, ... all things were created by him and for him" (Col. 1:16,17 KJV).
Just as in Heb. 1:2, di' can be translated for, and on account of, as well as by or through. As indicated above, either way is technically correct for this WORD. However, the MESSAGE in this text must decide which is the proper translation. The same is true of the Greek word en (= the English in).
Since Yahweh is the Creator (Heb. 3:4; Ex. 20:11; Mt. 21:33; Mk. 12:7; Lk. 20:14), and Yahshua is the heir, then Col. 1:16,17 SHOULD TELL THE SAME STORY. Dozens of Scriptures in both Testaments tell us plainly that Yahweh is the Creator, and there is no other El but but him. He alone is the only true El, Eloah, Elohim, and Creator.
Yahshua and the New Testament writers proved everything by Old Testament Scriptures, therefore New Testament Scriptures should (and originally did) agree with Old Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures are based on the older ones. This being true, it seems that a more exact reading of Col. 1:16,17, and one which is agreeable to the Greek text, is as follows:
"For in [en = in, to, unto, as well as by] him were all things created, that are in [en] heaven, and that are on earth, ... all things were created on account of [di'] him and for him."
John 1:10
"He [the Light, Yahshua] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not" (KJV).
As we have discovered above, to agree with other Scriptures, and with the context of the message, a more acceptable reading is as follows:
"He was in the world and the world was made for {di'} [on account of, because of] him, and the world knew him not."
Look back to the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 1:8-10
"But unto the Son he sayeth, Thy throne, O G-d, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore G-d, even thy G-d, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And thou, L-rd, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thy hands" (KJV).
As the KJV and the RSV read, this certainly indicates the Son (Yahshua) is the Creator of heaven and earth, which means he not only existed at the time of creation, but was also Deity. Once again, however, the translators evidently did not grasp the true message because they were sold on the doctrine of the Trinity. This translation will not stand the test of other Scriptures. The Moffatt Translation reads as follows:
"He [Yahweh, verse 5] says of the Son, 'G-d [the Father, Yahweh] is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal septre is the septre of equity: thou [the Son] hast loved justice and hated lawlessness, therefore G-d, the G-d, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' - and, 'Thou [Yahweh] didst found the earth at the beginning, O L-rd [Yahweh], and the heavens are the work of thy hands; ...'" (Heb. 1:8-10, Moffatt).
Two quotations from the Psalms are included in these verses.
"Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. You royal sceptre is a sceptre of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore G-d, your G-d has anointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows; ..." (Ps. 45:6,7 RSV). It is interesting to read the footnote in the RSV: "Your throne is a throne of God, ..." (verse 6). Now for the other quotation.
"Of Old thou (Yahweh, Verses 1, 12, 18] didst lay the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of they hands. They [the heavens and the earth] will perish, but thou dost endure; they will all wear out like a garment. Thou changest them like raiment, and they pass away; but thou [Yahweh] art the same, and thy years have no end" (Ps. 102:25-27 RSV).
As indicated above [with brackets], these verses speak of Yahweh as Creator - not Yahshua. Yahshua's years did, indeed, come to an end. Not so those of the Father, Yahweh. His years never end. He lives forever; past; present, and future. Usually overlooked are the following points: Hebrews Chapter Two
Yahshua] the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim thy name [Yahweh's name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee" (Heb. 2:10-12; Ps. 22:22 RSV).
Do I detect here a statement showing that Yahshua had the same origin as other men? I believe so. About half of the English versions read this way. The word "origin" is not in the Greek, but is implied evidently. This agrees with other statements made in the verses below.
Yahshua was even more faithful in Yahweh's house than Moses was. Every house has a builder. The builder of all things is Yahweh (Heb.3:1-6). To understand all of the book of Hebrews requires careful study.
The one who wrote it admits it is difficult to understand (Heb. 5:11). Did Yahshua Pre-exist As An Angel?
"For to what angel did Yahweh say, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?'" (Heb. 1:5).
The answer is obvious, never at any time, has Yahweh ever said to an angel, "You are my son." This is emphatically stated, not only here, but in verse 13 as well, "But to what angel has He [Yahweh] ever said, 'Sit at my righthand till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet?'"
"For Yahweh never said to an angel, Thou art my Son; today I have begotten thee, ..." (Heb. 1:5, New English Bible).
Review
If Yahshua pre-existed, he would have necessity have been a spiritual (spirit) being. This creates a problem, however, as a spiritual being can not die. It is an impossibility (Lk. 20:30-35; Deut. 32:40). Scriptures tell us Yahshua was flesh as we are flesh (2 Jn. 7). He had the
same origin as his brethern (Heb 2:12 RSV). He really and truly died - ceased to live (Heb. 2:14; Acts 2:23; Eph. 1:20).
This is powerful evidence that Yahshua did not pre-exist; that he did not live in a former life." To accept the pre-existence of Yahshua is to accept reincarnation; a superstition of the heathen which is unacceptable to our heavenly Father.
It seems reasonable to believe that Yahshua pre-existed neither
He did exist in Yahweh's glorious PLAN from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:5,9-11; John 17:24 RSV).
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pentecostal
Guest
he existed as the father in heaven . when the father came to the world in the form of flesh it was the flesh that was called the son, his humanity.
the son was in the plans of the father and this plan (the word) is accomplished in john 1:14
and the word (plan) became flesh
the father was his own plan
that's why john 1:1 says and the word was God
THE PLAN WAS GOD
i believe that God has shown himself to humanity in three manifestation which are the father the son and the holy spirit, not as three separate distinct Gods.
just like the bible says in deutoronomy 6:4 Here O israel the lord our God is ONE GOD
the son was in the plans of the father and this plan (the word) is accomplished in john 1:14
and the word (plan) became flesh
the father was his own plan
that's why john 1:1 says and the word was God
THE PLAN WAS GOD
i believe that God has shown himself to humanity in three manifestation which are the father the son and the holy spirit, not as three separate distinct Gods.
just like the bible says in deutoronomy 6:4 Here O israel the lord our God is ONE GOD
I did not understand that you were a "Oneness" advocate. I have never supported the "Oneness" doctrine. I believe that FATHER Yahweh and His SON Yahshua are two separate beings. I do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth and that he was a creator or a co-creator with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning or that they are "one and the same being" as many falsely believe and teach. I believe that Yahshua said that he and the Father were one in the sense that they were in unity and agreement with each other. Note that Yahshua communicated ["prayed"] to Father Yahweh that he desired that the men that He GAVE him from the world also be one "EVER AS WE ARE ONE" (Yahchanan [John] 17:22). Certainly the men that FATHER Yahweh GAVE His SON were not also "God"! FATHER Yahweh said that He sent His SON into the world. FATHER Yahweh is only in the world in the sense that He is in His SON, and not in a LITERAL sense.
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pentecostal
Guest
oh my friend how lost in words you really are .
the father is the only creator, he is the only saviour, the only redeemer but jesus is also the only saviour, redeemer and creator.
so tell me are you going to believe one and deny the other or are you going to believe that jesus is the father like it is in the bible. becasue if you deny the son you deny the father.
the son did not exist before his birth there was only one God in heaven and that was the father and not with his son.
understand what John 1:1 really means and get baptized in the name of jesus christ for the forgiveness of your sins. acts 2:38
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HearOhIsreal
Guest
How can Jesus then say..
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
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pentecostal
Guest
FRANK4YAHWEH, do you believe jesus is God, if so do you also believe in the trinity?
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theBibleisawsome
Guest
God is one not divided into 3 we were made in his image if God was separate then how come my Spirit is in me if God was divided then my spirit would be outside of me walking around but its not its in me
Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say or teach that Yahshua existed as the Father in Heaven. I do not believe in "three separate and distinct Gods". I believe one (Hebrew 'echad') in reference to Father Yahweh means one, not two or three. Please see my Xanga blog on this subject by clicking on the following hyper linked text:
LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE
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SantoSubito
Guest
But your spirit is not mingled in with your flesh, it is distinct from it, but still one with it. Similarly, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct from each other while at the same time being one with each other. See, simple?
No, I do not believe in such nonsense as the "Jesus IS God!" doctrine or the so-called "Holy Trinity" doctrine. Nowhere in Scripture from where we are to get our doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness are either of these doctrines ever taught.
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
"Jesus IS God!"?
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theBibleisawsome
Guest
And also if Jesus wasn't the Father how come when Phillip talked to him about showing the Father Jesus said have I been so long time with u n u still don't know me Philip he made it seem like he's the Father he didn't say my Father is in heaven making it seem like their separate from each other he had the perfect chance to tell them that if he and his Father were separate but he didn't he gave a answer making seem he was the Father
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pentecostal
Guest
when you realise that jesus is the father you get to the conclusion that jesus existed as the father. and yes it does say. Philippians 2:14 says it
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theBibleisawsome
Guest
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pentecostal
Guest
you are correct in saying that the trinity is not in the bible but incorrect in saying that jesus is not God because he is. even though he never said exactly the words i am God, people still knew that he was God and called him God.
http://mmoutreach.org/images/jesuschart2x.gif
look at this and tell me his is not God huh?
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HearOhIsreal
Guest
Colossians 1:16
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
That was Paul, speaking of Jesus. According to your doctrine, Paul is a liar. Same with John. Also,
Isaiah 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The Son is The everlasting Father. Your doctrine is false.
The First & the Last
By Voy Wilks
"I am Alpha and Omega, says the sovereign Yahweh, who is and was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8 RSV).
"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, 'Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one; I DIED and behold I am ALIVE for evermore, and I have the keys of death and hades'" (Revelation 1:17,18 RSV).
Some have proposed these verses are speaking of one and the same person. Not so. The first (Revelation 1:8) of the one and only Yahweh, the one true El (Yahchanan [John] 17:3). The second (Revelation 1:17,18) speaks of Yahshua the Messiah; he who DIED, but is now ALIVE for evermore. The question has been asked, however, "How can BOTH the Father (Yahweh) AND the Son (Yahshua) be the first and the last, the beginning and the ending?" This is a good question. The answer is just as good - and easy.
Yahweh, the Father, the Creator of all things, is indeed the first and last, the beginning and the ending, the Alpha and the Omega (Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13; Isayah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12). He is UNIQUE, which means he is one of a kind, having no equal. He is the Creator, so naturally, he is the Alpha, the first, the beginning. His purpose and plan will be done in the earth. He will have the last word, the last say so this makes him the last, the ending, the Omega.
Yahweh "was, is, and is to come." He lives forever (Deuteronomy 32:40,41). He is El from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 90:1,2; 41:13). Yahweh will one day come to earth (Revelation 1:8). Other Scriptures agree (Isayah 40:10; 59:19; 66:15,16; Zecharyah 14:5-8; Revelation 21:3). Yahshua, the Son of Yahweh
Yahshua is also "the first and the last" (Revelation 1:18). He too, is UNIQUE (one of a kind, without equal), although not in the same way as the Father, Yahweh. Yahshua Messiah is the FIRST and the LAST in the following ways:
(1) Yahshua was the FIRST to be BORN from the dead (Revelation 1:5; Acts 26:23; 1 Corinthians 15:20).
(2) Yahshua was the FIRST of mankind to gain everlasting life {immorality} (Revelation 1:18; Yahchanan [John] 6:35,40).
(3) Yahshua was the FIRST to be declared the "Son of Yahweh ... by his resurrection from the dead" (Romans 1:3,4).
(4) Yahshua was the BEGINNING of Yahweh's creation {the NEW creation of spiritual beings; that is, being born from the dead to a new life, to immortality} (Colossians 1:18; Revelation 3:14).
(5) Yahshua was the FIRST (and perhaps the only one) to be given the "key of Dearth and Hades (Revelation 1:18).
(6) Yahshua became the FIRST Citizen (the # one Citizen), in the Commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19,20; Romans 8:17; Galatians 3:26-29; Hebrews 2:10,11; 12:2).
(7) Yahshua was the FIRSTBORN among many brethern (Roman 8:29), therefore he will receive the inheritance (Romans 8:17; Galatians 3:26-29; Mattithyah [Matthew] 21:33-41). (8) Yahshua was the FIRST of mankind to ascend far above all the heavens (Ephesians 4:10).
(9) Yahshua was (will be) the FIRST to conquer death and the grave (Romans 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Revelation 20:13-15).
(10) Yahshua was the FIRST and the LAST (the only) sacrifice which truely removes the sins of mankind (Hebrews 9:26; 10:12,29; Romans 5:17-19; Hebrews 9:26-28).
(11) Yahshua was Yahweh's FIRST and LAST Messiah; the only total and true one (Yahchanan [John] 1:41; Acts 2:36; 3:18; 4:12).
(12) Yahshua was the FIRST in importants, but was the LAST of the great prophets in ancient Israel (Hebrews 1:1; 1 Kepha [Peter] 1:18-20; Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 2:22,23).
Conclusion
Yahweh and Yahshua are both unique, each in his own way, but they are not one and the same person. The Father (Yahweh) lives forever - from eternity psat to eternity future. Never for a moment did he die. He lives perpetually (Deuteronomy 32:40). Not so, the Son, Yahshua. He DIED as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, and remained dead for three days and three nights (72 hours). The Father, Yahweh, raised him from the grave - from the dead - and impated to him everlasting life (Revelation 1:18). Other Links To Consider
Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last
Yahweh - The Alpha And Omega?
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SantoSubito
Guest
Because each person of the Trinity is made of the same essence and each person of the Trinity is fully God. So to see one person of the Trinity is to see all the Trinity.
you are correct in saying that the trinity is not in the bible but incorrect in saying that jesus is not God because he is. even though he never said exactly the words i am God, people still knew that he was God and called him God.
http://mmoutreach.org/images/jesuschart2x.gif
look at this and tell me his is not God huh?
Jesus is NOT "God"! As I had previously said, I do not believe in the doctrine "Jesus IS God!", since nowhere in the Scriptures is this doctrine ever taught. What is taught in Scripture is that Yahshua is the SON of Yahweh ["God"]. We are instructed in Scripture to believe and confess that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh ["God"], not "Jesus IS God!". Nowhere in Scripture are we ever asked to believe and confess such foolishness as "Jesus IS God!". It is as simply as that!
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