Israel.

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

You still confuse the nation, people and land of Israel with the church. How do you explain this?

Amos 9: 11-15.
“In that day I will restore the fallen tent of David. I will repair its gaps, restore its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old, that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that bear My name,” declares the LORD, who will do this. “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when the plowman will overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes, the sower of seed. The mountains will drip with sweet wine, with which all the hills will flow. I will restore My people Israel from captivity; they will rebuild and inhabit the ruined cities. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will firmly plant them in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land that I have given them."

Israel was uprooted by Rome, finally around AD135. A remnant remained, the rest dispersed around the world. God began the process of restoration towards the end of the 19th century. Israel declared independence in 1948, fulfilling the prophecy, "I will firmly plant them in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land that I have given them." The return from previous exiles does not fit as they were uprooted again by Rome. So guess again.

James said that Amos prophecy was being fulfilled at that time. He was quoting from the Septuagint which is why the sentence with Edom is not in his quote. All of that in your quote came to pass then, except for the last sentence which obviously is a view of the future after Christ returns and Israel is dwelling safely in the land. In that day when James spoke this, they were back in their land from captivity, and had rebuilt and planted vineyards and gardens. Only the last verse remains to be fulfilled.

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: so that the remnant of men shall seek after the Lord, and all the nations upon which my name has been called upon by them, says [the] Lord -- the one doing all these [things]. Acts 15:14-17​

​

In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things. Amos 9:11-12​

​

 

[Beekeeper]

Rubbish. God's covenant with Abraham was unconditional (look up the word) and irrevocable (look that up too). Israel exists again, proving you wrong. Get over it.

The Jews can't win. They are hated throughout the world. The world wanted to be rid of them so, they enabled them to go to Israel. Now the Jews have their own state and they are still hated by much of the world. And its getting worse. Israel will prevail anyway, because God says so.

Rubbish. God's covenant with Abraham was unconditional (look up the word) and irrevocable (look that up too). Israel exists again, proving you wrong. Get over it.

The Jews can't win. They are hated throughout the world. The world wanted to be rid of them so, they enabled them to go to Israel. Now the Jews have their own state and they are still hated by much of the world. And its getting worse. Israel will prevail anyway, because God says so.

The blessings for obedience are listed in Deuteronomy 29:1 to 14.
The curses for disobedience are in Deuteronomy 28:15 to 68.
Notice that among the curses is v.36 "The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. "
Because of disobedience the Israelites later became captives, and because of obedience the remnant was returned to the promised land.

There most certainly is a way that the Jews can win, but it is through Jesus, not modern Israel.
Salvation is in every way of the Jews and for the Jews.
Rom 2:28-29

 

[LightBearer316]

Hello Light Bear.
I just looked up some timelines on the prophets that you quoted (and a couple more) and hope it might throw some light on those verses.
They are as follows:

Isaiah- Born 8th century, died 7th.
Ezekiel- Born 625, lived 52 years.
Jeremiah- Born 650 died 570
Daniel- Lived 6th century
Babylonian exile- Began around 597 and happened in a number of waves.
Construction of second temple- Began 537

This is all relevant to your verses, because we can now know that Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah are very likely to have been speaking of the second temple restoration of Jerusalem and not 1948.
In the book of Ezekiel we can know with absolute certainty that this is the case, because in the final chapters God speaks in glowing terms about the rebuilding of the temple and the restoration of the sacrifices.
To rebuild a third temple and to offer animal sacrifices would be an abomination to God (Mathew 24), because Jesus is the final sacrifice for our sin.
It makes very little sense that any of these prophets would tell the suffering captives about 1948.
What possible comfort would give them? How could it be relevant?

Who does the Bible say are the children of Abraham?

That’s a fair timeline, but you’re overlooking how prophecy often carries both an immediate and a future fulfillment. The restoration from Babylon was the near fulfillment — but it never exhausted the promises God made to regather Israel “from all the nations.”

Ezekiel 37:21-22 KJV says plainly:

“Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation…”​

That wasn’t true after Babylon. They remained scattered under Persia, Greece, and Rome — and by the first century were still dispersed in “every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5 KJV). The full regathering that Ezekiel foresaw clearly reaches beyond the return from exile.

Isaiah 11:11-12 KJV confirms this:

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people… and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.”​

That “second time” can’t be Babylon — it’s a global regathering, which matches the modern return of the Jewish people to their land.

As for sacrifices, Scripture also shows that Israel’s national restoration precedes their spiritual renewal. Zechariah 12:10 KJV says,

“They shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him.”​

That’s when national repentance comes — after they’re back in the land.​

So yes, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel comforted their own generation about the first return — but by the Spirit, they also looked far ahead to the final one. God’s promises to Abraham were unconditional and enduring; Israel’s unbelief delayed them, but never erased them (Romans 11:28-29 KJV).

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!

 

[Gideon300]

You can't break an unconditional covenant, ergo the old covenant was not unconditional because God said they broke it

Another ignorant statement. God made the covenant with Abraham. Abraham was not required to say or do anything. The New Covenant made by Lord Jesus in His blood likewise required nothing from His disciples. They all fled when Jesus was arrested. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the new covenant. That did not stop Jesus from fulfilling the New Covenant.

God's promise to Abram was initially even before Abram was circumcised. It was repeated to Abraham four times, then to Isaac and Jacob. After that there were many reaffirmations of the covenant with Abraham. God has kept His promises from the time of Adam's rebellion to this very moment.

Have you considered why God would maintain His covenant with Israel? You seem to think that Israel must be righteous and deserving. You would be wrong if that is your attitude. God calls Israel "the apple of His eye" (Zechariah 2:8) even after their history of rebellion. God blesses Israel because of the Patriarchs. It is also a declaration to the world that God can keep His promises no matter what. People can explain away the universe by so-called science. They can and do cast doubt on the veracity of the Bible. Israel cannot be dismissed. She exists in spite of everything the world does or says.

 

[Gideon300]

The blessings for obedience are listed in Deuteronomy 29:1 to 14.
The curses for disobedience are in Deuteronomy 28:15 to 68.
Notice that among the curses is v.36 "The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. "
Because of disobedience the Israelites later became captives, and because of obedience the remnant was returned to the promised land.

There most certainly is a way that the Jews can win, but it is through Jesus, not modern Israel.
Salvation is in every way of the Jews and for the Jews.
Rom 2:28-29

You make the same wrong assumptions as other replacement believers. You are invoking the wrong covenant.

Read the book of Revelation. God saves Israel in the end. Ask yourself why. He does not have to. Israel is as sinful as anywhere else. Jesus will not be standing in New York, on Mount Everest or London. He will stand on the mount of Olives.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Another ignorant statement. God made the covenant with Abraham. Abraham was not required to say or do anything. The New Covenant made by Lord Jesus in His blood likewise required nothing from His disciples. They all fled when Jesus was arrested. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the new covenant. That did not stop Jesus from fulfilling the New Covenant.

God's promise to Abram was initially even before Abram was circumcised. It was repeated to Abraham four times, then to Isaac and Jacob. After that there were many reaffirmations of the covenant with Abraham. God has kept His promises from the time of Adam's rebellion to this very moment.

Have you considered why God would maintain His covenant with Israel? You seem to think that Israel must be righteous and deserving. You would be wrong if that is your attitude. God calls Israel "the apple of His eye" (Zechariah 2:8) even after their history of rebellion. God blesses Israel because of the Patriarchs. It is also a declaration to the world that God can keep His promises no matter what. People can explain away the universe by so-called science. They can and do cast doubt on the veracity of the Bible. Israel cannot be dismissed. She exists in spite of everything the world does or says.

How long is it going to take to get you and some others to start believing what is written? God made 2 covenants with Abraham. The first was an unconditional covenant promising to give the land to Christ (Genesis 15). I'm not making this up; it's what Paul wrote in Galatians 3:16. When are you going to start believing that? The second was the conditional covenant of circumcision that created the people of God (Genesis 17).

The land covenant of Genesis 15 was not with Israel; it was between Abraham and God, and other than Christ it had nothing to do with Israel. The covenants with Israel were the covenant of circumcision, the covenant of law made at Mt Sinai and the covenant of blessings and curses made in Moab. Other covenants were made with individuals such as David and Aaron. All of them have been fulfilled in Christ. There's nothing left to fulfill.

 

[Beekeeper]

Your missing the point;


Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed (zar·‘ă·ḵā seed - offspring /descendants) and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

seed above talks about Eve – does see have 1 or more seed - regardless of the language?

Eve had many descendants, but only one seed was able to bruise Satan's head.
John saw a vision of a woman with child doing battle with a dragon in Revelations 12.
V.5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Are these two prophesies connected?
Notice in V.15 the dragon is called a serpent.

 

[Beekeeper]

That’s a fair timeline, but you’re overlooking how prophecy often carries both an immediate and a future fulfillment. The restoration from Babylon was the near fulfillment — but it never exhausted the promises God made to regather Israel “from all the nations.”

Ezekiel 37:21-22 KJV says plainly:

“Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation…”​

That wasn’t true after Babylon. They remained scattered under Persia, Greece, and Rome — and by the first century were still dispersed in “every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5 KJV). The full regathering that Ezekiel foresaw clearly reaches beyond the return from exile.

Isaiah 11:11-12 KJV confirms this:

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people… and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.”​

That “second time” can’t be Babylon — it’s a global regathering, which matches the modern return of the Jewish people to their land.

As for sacrifices, Scripture also shows that Israel’s national restoration precedes their spiritual renewal. Zechariah 12:10 KJV says,

“They shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him.”​

That’s when national repentance comes — after they’re back in the land.​

So yes, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel comforted their own generation about the first return — but by the Spirit, they also looked far ahead to the final one. God’s promises to Abraham were unconditional and enduring; Israel’s unbelief delayed them, but never erased them (Romans 11:28-29 KJV).

Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
https://ergonis.com/typinator
Highly Recommended - great for often cited scripture verses!

I will focus on Isaiah 11 for now.
Time is still long before the captivity
Too much to write about it, so I cherry pick for relevance to this thread:

Branch=Jesus is easy enough for most of us.
Animals=Different kinds of people united under the incredible good King. (Many potentially hostile people also find something to talk about on this forum)
Fulfillment time of v. 10=Christ has risen, but not long after. Isaiah does not skip over this important event to tell us about another one
far into the future.
Time of v.11=Same as v.10.
People described in vs.11 and 12=Outcasts of Israel, ethnically Jewish but living in many different countries.
Place they are gathered together in=Jerusalem.
NT fulfillment=Acts chapter 2, when the day of Pentecost was fully come.

Acts 2:5"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven."
V9-11
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The event was a miracle, and about 3000 Jewish men were saved to the true kingdom of Israel.

Back to Isaiah 11 The warfare described in the following verses is spiritual in nature.

 

[Beekeeper]

You make the same wrong assumptions as other replacement believers. You are invoking the wrong covenant.

Read the book of Revelation. God saves Israel in the end. Ask yourself why. He does not have to. Israel is as sinful as anywhere else. Jesus will not be standing in New York, on Mount Everest or London. He will stand on the mount of Olives.

It is interesting though that membership in the old kingdom requires obedience through faith, and membership in the new Kingdom also requires obedience through faith.
We don't have the law now, and our burden is light.
The kingdom however certainly seems similar.
At what time did the membership requirements for national Israel all change?
Are you aware of any Biblical prophet who told us what the rules and definitions would be after 1948?

 

[Needevidence]

They broke the covenant made at Mt Sinai (Horeb), but God made another covenant with them in Moab in which he vowed to destroy them off the land if they didn't keep the law

These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. Deuteronomy 29:1​

Jeremiah 31:31 - came after that numerous convenants

Eve had many descendants, but only one seed was able to bruise Satan's head.
John saw a vision of a woman with child doing battle with a dragon in Revelations 12.
V.5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Are these two prophesies connected?
Notice in V.15 the dragon is called a serpent.

Not sure of your point, but if it is, - is Jesus the seed - Yes. Point was in the OT seed doesn’t imply 1

 

[Beekeeper]

Jeremiah 31:31 - came after that numerous convenants



Not sure of your point, but if it is, - is Jesus the seed - Yes. Point was in the OT seed doesn’t imply 1

I see now that I have jumped in to a grammar discussion assuming that you have missed the first and most famous prophesy of Christ.
I am guilty as charged.

I would also consider that both "Israel" and "Christ" are singular words in nature.
It is possible none the less for multiple people to be IN Christ and IN Israel.
There are promises in both covenants to physical children, but both depend on their faith.
One NT ref. is in Acts 2:39 "39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.".

God is a Spirit that no man can see and yet live, still the man Israel was able to wrestle with Him all night and prevail.
We call God our Father without having been conceived by Him, only through Christ.
Make of it what you will, Is the name "Israel" also a reference to Christ?

God, our Father is called the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
In Christ we are called children of Abraham regardless of our conception,
and in Christ we are called "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) regardless of our conception.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Make of it what you will, Is the name "Israel" also a reference to Christ?

Jesus is the reality that Israel foreshadowed. He is the firstborn who inherited all of the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: Exodus 4:22​

​

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. Hosea 11:1​

​

And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet [Hosea], saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Matthew 2:15​

 

[Beekeeper]

Jesus is the reality that Israel foreshadowed. He is the firstborn who inherited all of the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: Exodus 4:22​

​

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. Hosea 11:1​

​

And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet [Hosea], saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Matthew 2:15​

I am re posting this only because I want to encourage people to read your scripture references.

I am grateful to all who seek to test their views by scripture, and let the Bible be their "study guide".

A shout out to Light Bear too, because although he does not share all my views he attempts to challenge them with verses rather than opinions.

 

[Beekeeper]

"Ye are of your Father the Devil" (Jhon 8:24) describes a condition shared by all unbelievers because they refuse to be reconciled with God.
Can we claim to be children of Israel without becoming children of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

 

[Me_Clay]

"Ye are of your Father the Devil" (Jhon 8:24) describes a condition shared by all unbelievers because they refuse to be reconciled with God.
Can we claim to be children of Israel without becoming children of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

What's your argument ?

 

[Beekeeper]

What's your argument ?

Not an argument, it is a question.
The answer will help us understand who is included in Abraham's promise.
Some say to Christ and all in Him, some say modern Israel and all in it.
What do you say?
Who does the Bible call the children of Abraham?

 

[Me_Clay]

Not an argument, it is a question.
The answer will help us understand who is included in Abraham's promise.
Some say to Christ and all in Him, some say modern Israel and all in it.
What do you say?
Who does the Bible call the children of Abraham?

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Me_Clay]

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Me_Clay]

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Many will perished and many will also be saved

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

And that would include the jews wouldn't it?

Duh. What goes through your mind that you would even ask such a question?