Israel.

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I agree. Same exact language - τω σπερματι σου

In that day [the] LORD ordained a covenant with Abram, saying, to your seed (τω σπερματι σου) I will give this land, from the river of Egypt unto the river of the great Euphrates, Genesis 15:18​
​
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed (τω σπερματι σου), which is Christ. Galatians 3:16​
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Excellent observation did you get it using ai? — either way you’re exactly right to note that Paul’s argument in Galatians 3:16 depends on the singular form of the Greek.

τῷ σπέρματί σου (tō spermati sou) — “to your seed.”​

Paul deliberately draws from the Septuagint wording of Genesis 15:18, where God’s covenant promise to Abram reads:

“In that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, To your seed (τῷ σπέρματί σου) I will give this land…” — Gen 15:18 (LXX)​

He then interprets that same phrase in Galatians 3:16:

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed (τῷ σπέρματί σου), which is Christ.”​

Paul’s entire argument hinges on that grammatical distinction — “seed” (singular) versus “seeds” (plural) — to reveal that the covenant ultimately pointed to Christ Himself, not merely to Abraham’s physical descendants.

Modern translations that replace seed with “descendants” lose that precision and obscure the very theological point Paul is making. The KJV, following both the Hebrew and the Septuagint form, preserves the inspired singular and keeps Paul’s argument intact.

Grace and peace.
 
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brightfame52 said:
Now notice how the Church Christ redeemed is designated a peculiar people Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That designation is only for Israel, remember Exodus 19:5

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Deut 14:2

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Notice a peculiar people unto Himself. Now what does the Holy Spirit say of the redeemed Church comprised of men and women of all ethnicities

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Again purify unto Himself a peculiar people. Folks there can only be one peculiar people unto God, the very word peculiar denotes that. Its the greek word periousios:

that which is one's own, belonging to one's possessions
a people selected by God from the other nations for his own possession
Now that's the Church, the Body of Christ, The Israel of God.

BTW this isn't replacement theology as some say, but fulfillment theology. The NT fulfills the OT ! 10
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You might want to look at the context in Titus 2:11-15. He is describing all people in Him (Christians). We are a peculiar people, because He is in us; we are not of the world.
 
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Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

For the life of me I can't understand why this does not apply to Israel.
It seems that all other nations are under a grace period except Israel.

Lev 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

Lev 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
 
God-fearing said:
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

For the life of me I can't understand why this does not apply to Israel.
It seems that all other nations are under a grace period except Israel.

Lev 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

Lev 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
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I guess you don't take into consideration that this was fulfilled when they were exiled to Babylon and then returned 70 years later to the land.
 
brightfame52 said:
Now notice how the Church Christ redeemed is designated a peculiar people Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That designation is only for Israel, remember Exodus 19:5

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Deut 14:2

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Notice a peculiar people unto Himself. Now what does the Holy Spirit say of the redeemed Church comprised of men and women of all ethnicities

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Again purify unto Himself a peculiar people. Folks there can only be one peculiar people unto God, the very word peculiar denotes that. Its the greek word periousios:

that which is one's own, belonging to one's possessions
a people selected by God from the other nations for his own possession
Now that's the Church, the Body of Christ, The Israel of God.

BTW this isn't replacement theology as some say, but fulfillment theology. The NT fulfills the OT ! 10
Click to expand...
Try reading Romans 9-11 again. Do you not know that 30% or so of the NT is quotes from the OT? There are a number of OT covenants. The covenant of the Law has been rendered obsolete, not that you'd know from many posters on the forum. However, God's covenant with Noah still stands, in spite of global warmer gloom and doomers. God's covenant with Abraham, confirmed over and over again, also still stands. Why do I say that? The sun rose this morning. Tides are still rising and falling. The moon is there still, doing its thing. I spent a week near the coast. Waves still pound the shores. When those things end, so does God's covenant with Abraham.
Jeremiah 31: 35 & 36

"Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day, who sets in order the moon and stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD of Hosts is His name: “Only if this fixed order departed from My presence, declares the LORD, would Israel’s descendants ever cease to be a nation before Me"
 
Gideon300 said:
I am not your judge. You can believe what you wish. Feel free to cherry pick scriptures to suit your own point of view. I have pointed out where I think that you are wrong - according to the scriptures. I know what the Bible says about Israel. It is not the church. Jews are not automatically saved. But God's covenant with Abraham is unconditional. You ignore the proof of that. All you have to do is look at a map, study the scriptures and learn a bit of history.
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To my understanding that sounds a lot like ducking for cover.

None of us are without bias, and I am no exception.
The point of view that I usually adopt when I read the Bible is that the book belongs to Jesus Christ. The first thing I would be looking for in any passage is Him and His kingdom. As far as biases go It is at least Biblical, ie Matt 6:33.

The point has been raised by myself and others here that Abraham's promises (including the land) were in fact made to Christ. I think we would be agreed that Jesus Christ is the true king of Israel, and also has full sovereignty over the land to this day. That could seem like a good point in favor of modern Israel, except that Jesus did not restore the nation, as many would expect. That is not to say that He did not want to. His desire was to gather the children of Israel as a hen gathers her chicks but they stoned the prophets that were sent to them and would not come. For that reason He has left it desolate, a state in which it remains to this day. Jesus did not command the reestablishment of a state called Israel in that land in 1948, that was done in defiance of Him by the will of man. Notice that Galatians: 22-31 Jerusalem that is now is compared to Abraham's effort to get a son from Hagar. Heavenly Jerusalem however is a living reality, and the true children of Israel (all ethnicity included} are to be gathered there.
The affairs of the Middle East pose no threat to the safety and security of Gods overall plan.
Please either vehemently disagree with me or wholeheartedly agree with me.
Indifference is an outstandingly dangerous response when it comes to the subject of Christ and His kingdom.
If you are well studied your responsibility is great.
 
ThereRoseaLamb said:
Right! The NT never mixes the two. When it speaks of Israel it says Israel and when it speaks of the church it says the church. Rom. 11 makes perfectly clear what will happen and that the Jews will inherit the land.
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The NT never mixes the two? Is that what your preacher said?
What about Acts 7:38?
"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: "
CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS.

BTW I think "church" must be one of the most corrupted and confused words in the English language. We all know that there are a lot of churches, so who's church is it that we really refer to?
I much prefer to refer to Christ, because we all know that it is possible for a person to be in Christ or not.
 
People study the Bible for many different reasons. For many it is to find support for their favorite religious organization.
They usually succeed, and that is why some of the most disciplined Bible scholars can't find any reference to Jesus in the whole old Testament. I would have more valuable things to learn from the thief on the cross than all of them put together.

Wherever Jesus is to be found in the Bible we should make absolutely sure that we find Him,
otherwise we replace Him with an idol.
 
If we are Justified in and by the Lord Jesus Christ as His Church is, then are we Israel, since Justification in Him is promised only to Israel Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory 10
 
PennEd said:
Would you say that when God talks about Jacob, as opposed to Israel, that He is talking about the Jews?
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I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

The example that springs to my mind is in Mather 22
" But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

God identifies Himself this way many times, but in this chapter Jesus is answering the Sadducees in their silly question about the resurrection. It is clear that the living man is referred to here as he is even to this day in heaven, and that he is named "Jacob".
I can not see in this context that he stands to define ethnic Jews exclusively, because through Christ non ethnic Jews are able to call the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob "Our Father".
If it is in any way arrogant or presumptuous for non ethnic Jews to call themselves children of Israel, would it not be worse if they called themselves children of Isaak, or "children of Abraham' (Galatians 3:7). ..or for that matter children of God.
The word "children" more often than not is used spiritually in the NT because God sees us that way.
We are grafted into an olive tree that has Abraham Isaac and Jacob at the root. If we are unable to accept them as family we deny our root.
I think in this day and age we do more damage than good when we define our neighbor as Jew or Gentile.
 
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