Israel.

[DaveMold]

[


These actual churches were in Turkey, but can be applied of course to all of us.

I like your closing comment regarding the seven churches, "... can be applied of course to all of us"
I believe this is why Revelation chapters 2 and 3 are in our Bible.
Here's a book which emphasizes this application, "Christ the Judge of the Seven Churches" you can find it on Amazon or at WestBow press.

 

[TruthDefender]

I like your closing comment regarding the seven churches, "... can be applied of course to all of us"
I believe this is why Revelation chapters 2 and 3 are in our Bible.
Here's a book which emphasizes this application, "Christ the Judge of the Seven Churches" you can find it on Amazon or at WestBow press.

No thank you, I can read all there is from what God states.
No need to read what man thinks, as if that counts for anything.

 

[shittim]

I like your closing comment regarding the seven churches, "... can be applied of course to all of us"
I believe this is why Revelation chapters 2 and 3 are in our Bible.
Here's a book which emphasizes this application, "Christ the Judge of the Seven Churches" you can find it on Amazon or at WestBow press.

Thank you, friend.

 

[Yahshua]

Adam sinned and died spiritually. It is also in Adam that all die - Romans 5:12.

Totally off topic, but sin wasn't passed to humanity. Death was. And it is death (i.e., our mortality) that compels us to sin. Every person is responsible for their own sin, not the sin of another.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

"for that..."

For what?

For that death...

All have sinned because of that death.

Even King David saw his sinfulness from birth. Psalm 51:5. Yet he was the man after God's heart. 1 Samuel 13:14

This does not mean born sinful. "born in sin" was a common idiom to mean "born out of wedlock" or "born out of fornication". David's mother conceived him in an act of sin. Shame was still placed on the offspring all the same, but I'm pointing out how this isn't proof of "Original Sin" (a Roman Catholic concept).

If you are correct, it is possible that given the right environment, someone could live a sinless life. That contradicts God's word - all have sinned. People sin because they are sinners. They do not become sinners when they sin.

People sin because they die.

If "Original Sin" is true, then the Messiah couldn't live a sinless life and thus save us all, since He also had the flesh of Adam when He was born.

The flesh compels people to sin. The corrupt flesh of Adam. And then when we sin, we are deserving of death...which compels us to sin...and so we die...and on...and on...and on. This is the prison. This is the law of sin and death.

This is why the answer to "the law of sin and death" is everlasting life through faith in Him.

 

[Yahshua]

i know this wasn't a question for me but.... I'm a historisist,
and i see the history of the Christian church from Acts till the end days, each church is a period of time for the church until today which is the lukewarm church.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The Christian church today is mostly made up of half converted people.

I think this is a fair reading of the passages because a precedent for dual interpretation (i.e., "message meant for now as well as for later") is established several times with multiple passages and prophecies in previous books.

 

[Gideon300]

Totally off topic, but sin wasn't passed to humanity. Death was. And it is death (i.e., our mortality) that compels us to sin. Every person is responsible for their own sin, not the sin of another.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

"for that..."

For what?

For that death...

All have sinned because of that death.



This does not mean born sinful. "born in sin" was a common idiom to mean "born out of wedlock" or "born out of fornication". David's mother conceived him in an act of sin. Shame was still placed on the offspring all the same, but I'm pointing out how this isn't proof of "Original Sin" (a Roman Catholic concept).



People sin because they die.

If "Original Sin" is true, then the Messiah couldn't live a sinless life and thus save us all, since He also had the flesh of Adam when He was born.

The flesh compels people to sin. The corrupt flesh of Adam. And then when we sin, we are deserving of death...which compels us to sin...and so we die...and on...and on...and on. This is the prison. This is the law of sin and death.

This is why the answer to "the law of sin and death" is everlasting life through faith in Him.

Jesus did not sin because He did not have the sin nature. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by a human. His body could die because he received it through a human mother.

Sin preceded death. It is obviously not physical as Adam was nearly 1000 yeas old when he died. We are born with the flesh. It does not become flesh when we sin. So we are born with the sinful nature, inherited from Adam.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12 If the sin nature is not inherited, then it is possible for someone to live sinless life. Yet "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

 

[PennEd]

A Jew Rules!

God bless the Jews!

 

[God-fearing]

A Jew Rules!

God bless the Jews!

Oh you started it now

 

[brightfame52]

In his paper on the role of Israel, Rev Stewart shows how OT Covenant Promises to National Israel are fullfilled to the Church of the NT by the Head of the Church, Christ:

The Role of Israel (3)
Most premillennialists and all dispensationalists apply the predictions of the OT prophets to ethnic Israel which they believe is to be restored spiritually in a future earthly millennium. One way to evaluate their system is to examine OT prophecies concerning Israel which are interpreted and applied by the Holy Spirit in the NT. Last time we considered Amos 9:11-15 and its explanation in Acts 15:13-18. This time we turn to the great promise of Jeremiah 31: “[31] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] … and I will remember their sin no more.”

With whom is the “new covenant” to be made when “the days come” (31)? It is to be made “with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah” (31, 33), that is, with those whose “fathers” God brought “out of the land of Egypt” (32). Thus, interpreting Jeremiah 31:31-34 literally and without reference to any other part of Scripture, the new covenant is to be made with national Israel and Judah (a “house” [31] and “people” [33]), the descendants of those whom God redeemed from Egypt. No mention is made of the Gentiles or a catholic church at all.

However, Jeremiah 31:31-34 is understood by the NT writers very differently. The citations in Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:16-17, in their contexts, teach us that the new covenant is established upon the sacrifice and intercession of Jesus Christ, the heavenly high priest after the order of Melchizedek. Thus the Holy Spirit declares, “Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (9:28). Can this be restricted just to ethnic Jews? Moreover, though the writer to the Hebrews has much to say about the new covenant and its relationship to Christ’s blood and His heavenly priesthood and kingship, he has nothing to say about any future earthly millennium for the physical descendants of Jacob.

When He instituted the Lord’s Supper, Christ had Jeremiah 31 in His mind: “this is my blood of the new testament [covenant], which is shed for many” (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20). Christ’s new covenant blood redeemed His people from “every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Rev. 5:9). Thus Paul tells the largely Gentile church in Corinth that at the Lord’s Table they drink “the new testament [i.e., covenant] in [Christ’s] blood” (I Cor. 11:25). Clearly, “Israel” and “Judah” in Jeremiah 31 refer to the catholic church of the NT redeemed in Christ, and not merely ethnic Jews either in our days or in a future millennium. Rev. Stewart 9​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In his paper on the role of Israel, Rev Stewart shows how OT Covenant Promises to National Israel are fullfilled to the Church of the NT by the Head of the Church, Christ:

The Role of Israel (3)​

Most premillennialists and all dispensationalists apply the predictions of the OT prophets to ethnic Israel which they believe is to be restored spiritually in a future earthly millennium. One way to evaluate their system is to examine OT prophecies concerning Israel which are interpreted and applied by the Holy Spirit in the NT. Last time we considered Amos 9:11-15 and its explanation in Acts 15:13-18. This time we turn to the great promise of Jeremiah 31: “[31] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] … and I will remember their sin no more.”​

​

With whom is the “new covenant” to be made when “the days come” (31)? It is to be made “with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah” (31, 33), that is, with those whose “fathers” God brought “out of the land of Egypt” (32). Thus, interpreting Jeremiah 31:31-34 literally and without reference to any other part of Scripture, the new covenant is to be made with national Israel and Judah (a “house” [31] and “people” [33]), the descendants of those whom God redeemed from Egypt. No mention is made of the Gentiles or a catholic church at all.​

​

However, Jeremiah 31:31-34 is understood by the NT writers very differently. The citations in Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:16-17, in their contexts, teach us that the new covenant is established upon the sacrifice and intercession of Jesus Christ, the heavenly high priest after the order of Melchizedek. Thus the Holy Spirit declares, “Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (9:28). Can this be restricted just to ethnic Jews? Moreover, though the writer to the Hebrews has much to say about the new covenant and its relationship to Christ’s blood and His heavenly priesthood and kingship, he has nothing to say about any future earthly millennium for the physical descendants of Jacob.​

​

When He instituted the Lord’s Supper, Christ had Jeremiah 31 in His mind: “this is my blood of the new testament [covenant], which is shed for many” (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20). Christ’s new covenant blood redeemed His people from “every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Rev. 5:9). Thus Paul tells the largely Gentile church in Corinth that at the Lord’s Table they drink “the new testament [i.e., covenant] in [Christ’s] blood” (I Cor. 11:25). Clearly, “Israel” and “Judah” in Jeremiah 31 refer to the catholic church of the NT redeemed in Christ, and not merely ethnic Jews either in our days or in a future millennium. Rev. Stewart 9​

God made the new covenant with 11 men from the houses of Israel and Judah, ie, the disciples. All others are/were grafted into that covenant through faith.

 

[Gideon300]

In his paper on the role of Israel, Rev Stewart shows how OT Covenant Promises to National Israel are fullfilled to the Church of the NT by the Head of the Church, Christ:

The Role of Israel (3)​

Most premillennialists and all dispensationalists apply the predictions of the OT prophets to ethnic Israel which they believe is to be restored spiritually in a future earthly millennium. One way to evaluate their system is to examine OT prophecies concerning Israel which are interpreted and applied by the Holy Spirit in the NT. Last time we considered Amos 9:11-15 and its explanation in Acts 15:13-18. This time we turn to the great promise of Jeremiah 31: “[31] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] … and I will remember their sin no more.”​

​

With whom is the “new covenant” to be made when “the days come” (31)? It is to be made “with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah” (31, 33), that is, with those whose “fathers” God brought “out of the land of Egypt” (32). Thus, interpreting Jeremiah 31:31-34 literally and without reference to any other part of Scripture, the new covenant is to be made with national Israel and Judah (a “house” [31] and “people” [33]), the descendants of those whom God redeemed from Egypt. No mention is made of the Gentiles or a catholic church at all.​

​

However, Jeremiah 31:31-34 is understood by the NT writers very differently. The citations in Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:16-17, in their contexts, teach us that the new covenant is established upon the sacrifice and intercession of Jesus Christ, the heavenly high priest after the order of Melchizedek. Thus the Holy Spirit declares, “Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (9:28). Can this be restricted just to ethnic Jews? Moreover, though the writer to the Hebrews has much to say about the new covenant and its relationship to Christ’s blood and His heavenly priesthood and kingship, he has nothing to say about any future earthly millennium for the physical descendants of Jacob.​

​

When He instituted the Lord’s Supper, Christ had Jeremiah 31 in His mind: “this is my blood of the new testament [covenant], which is shed for many” (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20). Christ’s new covenant blood redeemed His people from “every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Rev. 5:9). Thus Paul tells the largely Gentile church in Corinth that at the Lord’s Table they drink “the new testament [i.e., covenant] in [Christ’s] blood” (I Cor. 11:25). Clearly, “Israel” and “Judah” in Jeremiah 31 refer to the catholic church of the NT redeemed in Christ, and not merely ethnic Jews either in our days or in a future millennium. Rev. Stewart 9​

The problem is with the division between Old and New covenants. There are a number of covenants that God made with man. Some are conditional, as with the covenant of Law. According to Hebrews, that covenant is the shadow and Jesus the reality.

What replacement believers ignore is the covenant that God made with Abraham. It is unconditional and lasts as long as the sun rises and the moon orbits the earth. last I looked, this was still happening. There will be a new heavens and a new earth, where there is no sun or moon. There will then be no physical Israel. Until then, Israel exists and that is according to God's will, plan and purpose. You don't have to like it. If you have a problem, take it up with God. But try not to twist the scriptures to suit your own prejudice. The church is grafted in. No Israel, no church. You don't cut down the tree after the branch has been grafted. I'm not much of a gardener, but I do know that much.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

What replacement believers ignore is the covenant that God made with Abraham. It is unconditional and lasts as long as the sun rises and the moon orbits the earth. last I looked, this was still happening. There will be a new heavens and a new earth, where there is no sun or moon. There will then be no physical Israel. Until then, Israel exists and that is according to God's will, plan and purpose. You don't have to like it. If you have a problem, take it up with God. But try not to twist the scriptures to suit your own prejudice. The church is grafted in. No Israel, no church. You don't cut down the tree after the branch has been grafted. I'm not much of a gardener, but I do know that much.

There was only one unconditional covenant that God made with Abraham (Genesis 15) and per Galatians 3:16 it had nothing to do with Israel.

God's holy nation does exist, but you are blind to it because your mind is focused on something worldly instead of heavenly reality

 

[TruthDefender]

-"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."
Galatians 2:16 NKJV

 

[TruthDefender]

-"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),"
Galatians 3:13 NKJV

-"What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator."
Galatians 3:19 NKJV

-"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
Galatians 3:24-25 NKJV

 

[brightfame52]

God made the new covenant with 11 men from the houses of Israel and Judah, ie, the disciples. All others are/were grafted into that covenant through faith.

False

 

[brightfame52]

The problem is with the division between Old and New covenants. There are a number of covenants that God made with man. Some are conditional, as with the covenant of Law. According to Hebrews, that covenant is the shadow and Jesus the reality.

What replacement believers ignore is the covenant that God made with Abraham. It is unconditional and lasts as long as the sun rises and the moon orbits the earth. last I looked, this was still happening. There will be a new heavens and a new earth, where there is no sun or moon. There will then be no physical Israel. Until then, Israel exists and that is according to God's will, plan and purpose. You don't have to like it. If you have a problem, take it up with God. But try not to twist the scriptures to suit your own prejudice. The church is grafted in. No Israel, no church. You don't cut down the tree after the branch has been grafted. I'm not much of a gardener, but I do know that much.

Rabbit trail and you seem to ignore the light.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

False

False

 

[Gideon300]

Rabbit trail and you seem to ignore the light.

 

[Beekeeper]

God is not done with Israel yet.

This is one of those pulpit slogans that is repeated throughout the world, but in itself it is a very vague statement.
It does not tell us who God considers to be His Israel or what He still intends to do with it.
Our interpretation of the name should not matter, as it was God who gave it to Jacob.
Those who can put their politics aside while reading Gal 6:14-16 will see in the context that the "Israel of God" contains believers in Jesus from all nations.
While in that chapter, have a look at Gal 3:26-29. Notice that the same group of people are also called "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Rom 11:26 actually confirms that God uses the word "Israel" in reference to all who are in Christ, because the "all Israel" that is to be saved is illustrated in the previous verses as an olive tree, again containing believers in Jesus from all nations.


So why do those who love the theology of Judaism call us "replacement theologians"?
Surely all Christians know that Jesus is the living King of true Israel in line of David?
All His disciples were Israelite s, so no controversy there.
Does all this confusion arise from the fact that Cornelius and others like him were grafted in?
Why are they such game changers?
Should we have not already started calling the Hebrews "replacement theologians" when Ruth was grafted, or even Rahab?
If that is the case, replacement Theology must definitely began with Abraham.
He lived before Israel was named, yet received the promises of Genesis 12 and 15.
Before naming anyone "replacement theologian" we should also be sure we understand exactly who is included in Abraham's promise. Abraham and his "SEED" (kjv). 'Seed" is most definitely a reference to Christ, as you can see in Gal 3:16, and includes His believers from all nations.
In conclusion I wish to challenge you with the suggestion that those who wish to replace Christ in this context with the modern nation of Israel are in fact the true replacement theologians.

 

[Gideon300]

i know this wasn't a question for me but.... I'm a historisist,
and i see the history of the Christian church from Acts till the end days, each church is a period of time for the church until today which is the lukewarm church.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The Christian church today is mostly made up of half converted people.

I think it's more nuanced than that. The persecuted church ("Smyrna") in North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and so on face death daily for their faith. I doubt that they are lukewarm. Within the "Laodicean" community there are overcoming fellowships that are zealous and consecrated.

But yes, the modern church, at least in the West, is fraught with problems. With all the knowledge, the Bible resources, restoration of lost doctrine and wealth available, we should be living in total victory. Instead, there is division, compromise with the world, deception and immorality. But there is also the faithful remnant, "7000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal".

Jesus is Head and Builder of His church. He is not returning for a defeated rabble just holding on until He comes. He is returning for His victorious, glorious, pure, righteous and holy people. We have none of those attributes in ourselves. We have all of those attributes in Him alone.