Israel.

[Gideon300]

This is one of those pulpit slogans that is repeated throughout the world, but in itself it is a very vague statement.
It does not tell us who God considers to be His Israel or what He still intends to do with it.
Our interpretation of the name should not matter, as it was God who gave it to Jacob.
Those who can put their politics aside while reading Gal 6:14-16 will see in the context that the "Israel of God" contains believers in Jesus from all nations.
While in that chapter, have a look at Gal 3:26-29. Notice that the same group of people are also called "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Rom 11:26 actually confirms that God uses the word "Israel" in reference to all who are in Christ, because the "all Israel" that is to be saved is illustrated in the previous verses as an olive tree, again containing believers in Jesus from all nations.


So why do those who love the theology of Judaism call us "replacement theologians"?
Surely all Christians know that Jesus is the living King of true Israel in line of David?
All His disciples were Israelite s, so no controversy there.
Does all this confusion arise from the fact that Cornelius and others like him were grafted in?
Why are they such game changers?
Should we have not already started calling the Hebrews "replacement theologians" when Ruth was grafted, or even Rahab?
If that is the case, replacement Theology must definitely began with Abraham.
He lived before Israel was named, yet received the promises of Genesis 12 and 15.
Before naming anyone "replacement theologian" we should also be sure we understand exactly who is included in Abraham's promise. Abraham and his "SEED" (kjv). 'Seed" is most definitely a reference to Christ, as you can see in Gal 3:16, and includes His believers from all nations.
In conclusion I wish to challenge you with the suggestion that those who wish to replace Christ in this context with the modern nation of Israel are in fact the true replacement theologians.

Have you ever actually studied any of this subject in detail? I'm accused of following a rabbit trail. As it happens, it's something like that. God has not put a special section in His word that relates to Israel in the end times. It's found in Daniel, Ezekiel, Amos, Zechariah, Jermiah and other places.

What people seem to ignore is that God's covenant with Abraham included the land. if you can find where God rescinded that covenant, which He Himself called everlasting, please let me know. According to my reading, the sun will not rise and the moon will not orbit the earth before God's covenant will end.

I don't know anyone who believes that Israel replaces Christ. That is stupid and heretical. Jews are saved exactly the same way as gentiles. However, Israel the nation is at the centre of God's plan and purpose for the world. Read Zechariah 14. Don't tell me it has been fulfilled. It has not.

 

[HeIsHere]

Surely all Christians know that Jesus is the living King of true Israel in line of David?

Apparently some do not.

Before naming anyone "replacement theologian" we should also be sure we understand exactly who is included in Abraham's promise. Abraham and his "SEED" (kjv). 'Seed" is most definitely a reference to Christ, as you can see in Gal 3:16, and includes His believers from all nations.
In conclusion I wish to challenge you with the suggestion that those who wish to replace Christ in this context with the modern nation of Israel are in fact the true replacement theologians.

Not likely they will, they have bought into the lies from preachers with glittering gold in their teeth

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I don't know anyone who believes that Israel replaces Christ. That is stupid and heretical. Jews are saved exactly the same way as gentiles. However, Israel the nation is at the centre of God's plan and purpose for the world. Read Zechariah 14. Don't tell me it has been fulfilled. It has not.

Define nation. God's not dealing anymore with a nation ruled by men.

Zechariah is a mix of visions encompassing both past and future. Verse 4 and 5 have most definitely been fulfilled

Zechariah 14:4-5 fulfilled
https://zechariahfourteenfive.wordpress.com/2011/12/19/azal-a-longtime-mystery-rediscovered/

 

[brightfame52]

That the Church is Israel is seen n the redemption promise made to Israel and fulfilled in the Church by Christs death for His church. Ps 130:8

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

Fulfilled Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 10

 

[Beekeeper]

Apparently some do not.




Not likely they will, they have bought into the lies from preachers with glittering gold in their teeth

Many things that look unlikely to us are possible for God.
I was once a vocal defender of atheism, and now thank those who had the patience to explain Christ to me. Most of them only remember me now only by my protests and counter attacks.
It would have seemed impossible that anyone would turn Jonah, yet he turned.
Abraham and Sarah are remembered for their faith,
yet at one time they were so driven by doubt that they tried to fulfill God's prophesy in their own strength.
I wonder how many people out there understand the illustration in Gal 4:22 to 31.
It tells us everything we need to know about Christian Zionism.
Lets just keep on telling them!

 

[Beekeeper]

Have you ever actually studied any of this subject in detail? I'm accused of following a rabbit trail. As it happens, it's something like that. God has not put a special section in His word that relates to Israel in the end times. It's found in Daniel, Ezekiel, Amos, Zechariah, Jermiah and other places.

What people seem to ignore is that God's covenant with Abraham included the land. if you can find where God rescinded that covenant, which He Himself called everlasting, please let me know. According to my reading, the sun will not rise and the moon will not orbit the earth before God's covenant will end.

I don't know anyone who believes that Israel replaces Christ. That is stupid and heretical. Jews are saved exactly the same way as gentiles. However, Israel the nation is at the centre of God's plan and purpose for the world. Read Zechariah 14. Don't tell me it has been fulfilled. It has not.

I think that I have studied this matter in detail, and may be able to answer some of your questions about the prophets. That would take time and space and not many people would read it all, so for now I prefer to focus on Abraham. Abraham is foundational to understanding Christs kingdom in the world.
I do not accuse you of replacing Christ with modern Israel in every context, but there are many who attribute God's promises to Abraham and his seed to entirely the wrong people. I seek to clarify who the subject of that promise is, and of course that is Jesus.
When people interpret Genesis 12 as "bless modern Israel and you will be blessed" I would tell them that the blessing rightly belongs to Christ and His kingdom, not those who reject Him.

You are right that the covenant with Abraham included land.
I suspect that God will come good with that one too when he creates a new heaven and earth, but the Hebrews proved many times over that it is possible for man to break that covenant.
Read Genisis 17:1 to 14. Notice that in V.14 God says " And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. "
Is it not possible to break the covenant of circumcision?
In the context of National Israel how is it possible to be "cut off from his people" and still remain a citizen of that country?
In the context of modern times, who has not broken that covenant?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

You are right that the covenant with Abraham included land.
I suspect that God will come good with that one too when he creates a new heaven and earth, but the Hebrews proved many times over that it is possible for man to break that covenant.

The blood covenant of Genesis 15 was an unconditional covenant giving the land to Christ, not Israel. This is proven by Galatians 3:16 and the context of Genesis 15.

Context:

• God promised to give the land to Abram
• Abram asked how would he know he would receive the land (in other words he was asking for surety)
• God told Abram to prepare animals for a blood covenant as surety
• God cut a covenant with Abram promising to give the land, not to Abram, but to his seed

Abram's descendents would all die as he would, and he would not be able to receive anything from them, so God couldn't have been referring to Abram's descendents. Rather, God was referring to Abram's seed Christ, who would give the land to Abram in the resurrection. Abram saw this and was strong in faith. Paul bears witness to this in Galatians 3:16 in which he says the seed is Christ.

 

[Gideon300]

I think that I have studied this matter in detail, and may be able to answer some of your questions about the prophets. That would take time and space and not many people would read it all, so for now I prefer to focus on Abraham. Abraham is foundational to understanding Christs kingdom in the world.
I do not accuse you of replacing Christ with modern Israel in every context, but there are many who attribute God's promises to Abraham and his seed to entirely the wrong people. I seek to clarify who the subject of that promise is, and of course that is Jesus.
When people interpret Genesis 12 as "bless modern Israel and you will be blessed" I would tell them that the blessing rightly belongs to Christ and His kingdom, not those who reject Him.

You are right that the covenant with Abraham included land.
I suspect that God will come good with that one too when he creates a new heaven and earth, but the Hebrews proved many times over that it is possible for man to break that covenant.
Read Genisis 17:1 to 14. Notice that in V.14 God says " And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. "
Is it not possible to break the covenant of circumcision?
In the context of National Israel how is it possible to be "cut off from his people" and still remain a citizen of that country?
In the context of modern times, who has not broken that covenant?

You still don't get it. When did God say, "Abe, Israel has failed once to often. I'm done with them."

Do you not see that God is revealing His power to have His will done in spite of the weaknesses and foolishness of men? People can reject the Bible. They can reject Christianity. They can say that the OT is myth. What they cannot do is say that Israel does not exist. The world wishes Israel would just go away. They would rather the land be taken over by the followers of a mass murdering paedophile. Why is that? It is because Israel stands as testimony to God's power in the face of overwhelming obstacles. The world is under the control of the devil. Read psalm 2 and you will see what I mean.

 

[TruthDefender]

-"Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved. For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.""
Romans 9:27-28 NKJV

 

[brightfame52]

The world wishes Israel would just go away. They would rather the land be taken over by the followers of a mass murdering paedophile. Why is that? It is because Israel stands as testimony to God's power in the face of overwhelming obstacles. The world is under the control of the devil. Read psalm 2 and you will see what I mean.

Yes, that invincible Israel is the Church that Christ builds, that belongs to Him Matt 16:18

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Beekeeper]

You still don't get it. When did God say, "Abe, Israel has failed once to often. I'm done with them."

Do you not see that God is revealing His power to have His will done in spite of the weaknesses and foolishness of men? People can reject the Bible. They can reject Christianity. They can say that the OT is myth. What they cannot do is say that Israel does not exist. The world wishes Israel would just go away. They would rather the land be taken over by the followers of a mass murdering paedophile. Why is that? It is because Israel stands as testimony to God's power in the face of overwhelming obstacles. The world is under the control of the devil. Read psalm 2 and you will see what I mean.

You still don't get it. When did God say, "Abe, Israel has failed once to often. I'm done with them."

Mathew 23:38 "Behold your house is left unto you desolate"

I have tried to show you that the Israel of God was never defined by that land. I don't seem to have your attention, as you brush away the thoughts that I present.

Jacob first bore that name when he wrestled with God. The children of Israel were "Israel" when they lived in Egypt, and in the wilderness.

Where in your understanding was Israel before 1948? If it was to be invaded by Iran will you bless the Iranians because of Genesis 12? Perhaps you would not because you think the modern "Jews" are God's chosen people?

If I believed that I would convert to Judaism immediately. Who in their right mind would want to be un-chosen when they could have it another way?

Modern Israel has political claims, military claims and the claims of other religions. The problem when it comes to Biblical Christianity is that it is a complete fake. If a christian church was to reject Christ we would be justified in calling it a fake church. Similarly a manufactured "Israel" that rejects the king of Israel is in fact a fake Israel.

I understand that you have been persuaded that modern Israel is a righteous nation. My father and grandparents were born in that land and are intimately acquainted with its history. No amount of propaganda would persuade them.

 

[Gideon300]

You still don't get it. When did God say, "Abe, Israel has failed once to often. I'm done with them."

Mathew 23:38 "Behold your house is left unto you desolate"

I have tried to show you that the Israel of God was never defined by that land. I don't seem to have your attention, as you brush away the thoughts that I present.

Jacob first bore that name when he wrestled with God. The children of Israel were "Israel" when they lived in Egypt, and in the wilderness.

Where in your understanding was Israel before 1948? If it was to be invaded by Iran will you bless the Iranians because of Genesis 12? Perhaps you would not because you think the modern "Jews" are God's chosen people?

If I believed that I would convert to Judaism immediately. Who in their right mind would want to be un-chosen when they could have it another way?

Modern Israel has political claims, military claims and the claims of other religions. The problem when it comes to Biblical Christianity is that it is a complete fake. If a christian church was to reject Christ we would be justified in calling it a fake church. Similarly a manufactured "Israel" that rejects the king of Israel is in fact a fake Israel.

I understand that you have been persuaded that modern Israel is a righteous nation. My father and grandparents were born in that land and are intimately acquainted with its history. No amount of propaganda would persuade them.

You understand NOTHING when it comes to what the Bible has to say about Israel. Not once have I stated that Israel is righteous. Not once have I claimed that Jews are saved because they are Jews.

You reject the clear word of God on the place of Israel in His plan and purpose. That's your choice. It's a really bad choice.

By the way, Muslims are desperate to see the end of Israel. Their false "Messiah" won't return until Israel is destroyed. I have news for you and them both. Israel survives and prospers according to God's will. If don't like it, talk to God.

 

[HeIsHere]

Many things that look unlikely to us are possible for God.
I was once a vocal defender of atheism, and now thank those who had the patience to explain Christ to me. Most of them only remember me now only by my protests and counter attacks.
It would have seemed impossible that anyone would turn Jonah, yet he turned.
Abraham and Sarah are remembered for their faith,
yet at one time they were so driven by doubt that they tried to fulfill God's prophesy in their own strength.
I wonder how many people out there understand the illustration in Gal 4:22 to 31.
It tells us everything we need to know about Christian Zionism.
Lets just keep on telling them!

Lets just keep on telling them!

Til the vitriol starts and then time to shake the dust off your feet.

This is different than atheism, this is case of mass indoctrination and very hard to break.

When Jesus told the "woman to weep for herself" because Jesus knew judgment was coming in 70 AD they refused to change their minds and they reaped what they had sown, this is much the same.

I do support you though, because there may be that odd person who is not fully invested in futurism (Zionism) as I was and I did see the light with the help of someone here.

 

[Aaron56]

You still don't get it. When did God say, "Abe, Israel has failed once to often. I'm done with them."

No. More like: "Israel has failed too often. I will send them my Son so that they, and all who will receive Him, can be redeemed in Him." And not only that, but instead of the small tract of land I showed Abram, those in my Son will have the right to rule over all of creation."

Christ paid the price for all men who would come to Him: Jew and Gentile alike.

I mean, this is Gospel 101. Only someone with a bias could miss it. #shrug

 

[Beekeeper]

You understand NOTHING when it comes to what the Bible has to say about Israel. Not once have I stated that Israel is righteous. Not once have I claimed that Jews are saved because they are Jews.

You reject the clear word of God on the place of Israel in His plan and purpose. That's your choice. It's a really bad choice.

By the way, Muslims are desperate to see the end of Israel. Their false "Messiah" won't return until Israel is destroyed. I have news for you and them both. Israel survives and prospers according to God's will. If don't like it, talk to God.

If I have burned up the last reserves of your patience with my last comment I am sorry.
I had not intended to make further accusations against you, because I do not know all your views concerning Israel.
They were questions, and I used question marks because I want to find out. Admittedly they were somewhat rhetorical though.

The public accusation that I have made against you about Abraham as far as I am concerned still stands however, and on that subject I am not done with you yet.
I have seen you trivialize NT verses like Galatians 3:16, and brush them away as if they are nothing.
I see Christ an His kingdom in the interaction between God and Abraham because it is taught many times over in the NT, and you see a defense of modern Israel, because that is what you are looking for.
When we see all the chaos and confusion in the world between the Abraham religions we should count ourselves to be highly privileged to have the NT. Armed with the NT Abraham is so well explained that for all that take the opportunity he is easy to understand.
He is also foundational to both your belief and mine.
Should you happen to find yourself the looser of this challenge between the two of us, I sentence you to complete freedom from "bondage" (Gal 4:25) to the place " which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" Rev.11:8.
I further sentence you to a clearer understanding of your citizenship in Christs heavenly kingdom, including the part of it that is still in this world.
Should on the other hand I be found to have accused you falsely, you have the right to impose on me any sentence that you wish.
Do we have a deal?
or do you wish to duck for cover?

 

[Beekeeper]

The blood covenant of Genesis 15 was an unconditional covenant giving the land to Christ, not Israel. This is proven by Galatians 3:16 and the context of Genesis 15.

Context:

• God promised to give the land to Abram
• Abram asked how would he know he would receive the land (in other words he was asking for surety)
• God told Abram to prepare animals for a blood covenant as surety
• God cut a covenant with Abram promising to give the land, not to Abram, but to his seed

Abram's descendents would all die as he would, and he would not be able to receive anything from them, so God couldn't have been referring to Abram's descendents. Rather, God was referring to Abram's seed Christ, who would give the land to Abram in the resurrection. Abram saw this and was strong in faith. Paul bears witness to this in Galatians 3:16 in which he says the seed is Christ.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Rose.
No error in the kjv translation, as it uses the word "seed", but some English translations say "descendants", and that is a mistake I do not have the grace to forgive. Paul in Gal 3:16 quotes directly from the Septuagint. "spermata"=seed.

 

[Gideon300]

If I have burned up the last reserves of your patience with my last comment I am sorry.
I had not intended to make further accusations against you, because I do not know all your views concerning Israel.
They were questions, and I used question marks because I want to find out. Admittedly they were somewhat rhetorical though.

The public accusation that I have made against you about Abraham as far as I am concerned still stands however, and on that subject I am not done with you yet.
I have seen you trivialize NT verses like Galatians 3:16, and brush them away as if they are nothing.
I see Christ an His kingdom in the interaction between God and Abraham because it is taught many times over in the NT, and you see a defense of modern Israel, because that is what you are looking for.
When we see all the chaos and confusion in the world between the Abraham religions we should count ourselves to be highly privileged to have the NT. Armed with the NT Abraham is so well explained that for all that take the opportunity he is easy to understand.
He is also foundational to both your belief and mine.
Should you happen to find yourself the looser of this challenge between the two of us, I sentence you to complete freedom from "bondage" (Gal 4:25) to the place " which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" Rev.11:8.
I further sentence you to a clearer understanding of your citizenship in Christs heavenly kingdom, including the part of it that is still in this world.
Should on the other hand I be found to have accused you falsely, you have the right to impose on me any sentence that you wish.
Do we have a deal?
or do you wish to duck for cover?

I am not your judge. You can believe what you wish. Feel free to cherry pick scriptures to suit your own point of view. I have pointed out where I think that you are wrong - according to the scriptures. I know what the Bible says about Israel. It is not the church. Jews are not automatically saved. But God's covenant with Abraham is unconditional. You ignore the proof of that. All you have to do is look at a map, study the scriptures and learn a bit of history.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Rose.
No error in the kjv translation, as it uses the word "seed", but some English translations say "descendants", and that is a mistake I do not have the grace to forgive. Paul in Gal 3:16 quotes directly from the Septuagint. "spermata"=seed.

I agree. Same exact language - τω σπερματι σου

In that day [the] LORD ordained a covenant with Abram, saying, to your seed (τω σπερματι σου) I will give this land, from the river of Egypt unto the river of the great Euphrates, Genesis 15:18​

​

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed (τω σπερματι σου), which is Christ. Galatians 3:16​

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I am not your judge. You can believe what you wish. Feel free to cherry pick scriptures to suit your own point of view. I have pointed out where I think that you are wrong - according to the scriptures. I know what the Bible says about Israel. It is not the church. Jews are not automatically saved. But God's covenant with Abraham is unconditional. You ignore the proof of that. All you have to do is look at a map, study the scriptures and learn a bit of history.

Right! The NT never mixes the two. When it speaks of Israel it says Israel and when it speaks of the church it says the church. Rom. 11 makes perfectly clear what will happen and that the Jews will inherit the land.

 

[brightfame52]

Now notice how the Church Christ redeemed is designated a peculiar people Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That designation is only for Israel, remember Exodus 19:5

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Deut 14:2

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Notice a peculiar people unto Himself. Now what does the Holy Spirit say of the redeemed Church comprised of men and women of all ethnicities

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Again purify unto Himself a peculiar people. Folks there can only be one peculiar people unto God, the very word peculiar denotes that. Its the greek word periousios:

that which is one's own, belonging to one's possessions
a people selected by God from the other nations for his own possession
Now that's the Church, the Body of Christ, The Israel of God.

BTW this isn't replacement theology as some say, but fulfillment theology. The NT fulfills the OT ! 10