Israel.

[God-fearing]

The enmity in this tread is staggering. Some here deny what is right in front of their eyes.
The Lord said he would regather his people back in the land of their fathers......without a doubt this is happening. Fact.
Weather you paint it over with politics or covenant promise this is happening.
Some here speculate on 1948 being the hand of God or the hand of man nevertheless it is happening.....fact.
For the first time in 2000 yrs Jerusalem has become once again the capital of Israel......fact.
Some speculate of a third temple being built. Israel has made it known this is the intentions of there beliefs.......fact
End Time scriptures reveal a temple existing in the land of Israel. Focusing on the abomination of desolation.......fact
The Lord siad he would make it a cup of trembling to all the nations.......its beginning to be so......fact
The Lord said all nations will turn against Israel.......it has begun......fact.
Scriptures tell us lawlessness will be prevalent in the end times. Is it not?.........fact.

It doest take spiritual eyes to see what is happening and what has happened. The question is wheather it be God or man.
I tend to believe what God has said in his word.

 

[Gideon300]

I’m not involved very much with the political conflict in Israel, so I can’t speak on that subject. But I would like to comment on your statement about them being “God’s chosen people. From what I read, I think most Americans believe we should help them and support them because they are God’s chosen people. At one time, that was true; and all of the scriptures you see quoted will only come from the Old Testament because that was the only time when they were God’s “chosen.”

They are NOT God’s chosen people today; and I can prove it from the scriptures, if you are willing to believe what God says.
First of all, we must understand that God’s covenant with His people has been changed. It was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31. “…the days are coming says the Lord, when I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL…not like the one I made with their fathers…”. This prophecy is fulfilled in the New TESTAMENT (covenant). Hebrews 8 teaches this and even quotes Jeremiah’s prophecy. This NEW covenant is the “will” of Jesus Christ. Whereas the Old Testament is “exclusive” Jews only, the NEW COVENANT is “inclusive”—all men, Jew and Gentiles alike.
Hebrews 8:13 even says the Old Testament is OBSOLETE and is vanishing away. All of those Old Testament scriptures that say “bless Israel” and they are “chosen” and “Israel is the apple of God’s eye—are just that—OLD TESTAMENT. They are OBSOLETE. God has a NEW covenant and we are not under that Old covenant that is obsolete, outdated, no longer in force; we are under the NEW Covenant that was prophesied by Jeremiah and confirmed by the Holy Spirit in Hebrews 8. If you are a Christian, you are abiding by the law of Christ, following Him and His law is only found in the New Covenant; in the Old Testament, the Jews followed the law given by Moses. That law was never for Christian’s.

God has told us who are His “chosen” people today, in 1 Peter 2:7-9. Notice verse 7– “To you who BELIEVE…”. That’s us, if you believe Jesus is the Son of God. That’s Christian’s. Now listen to what the Holy Spirit says to YOU: “ But YOU ( those who Believe) are a CHOSEN generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, HIS OWN SPECIAL PEOPLE…”. Verse 10 says at one time we were NOT His people but NOW, NOW WE ARE THE PEOPLE OF GOD! This is wonderful!! I hope you believe what God has done for us and what He is telling you here. It’s a great, great Blessing God has bestowed on us.

You will not find one scripture in all of the New Testament that tells you to “bless” Israel or that they are God’s “chosen” people. That’s in the past. At one time, yes. But now? No. Those Old Testament scriptures are no longer in force. They have been replaced by The New Testament of Jesus Christ. Hear Him. Obey Him.
“

You miss the point entirely. The argument is about the status of Israel as a nation and the land of Israel that they dwell in. Go back and read God's covenant with Abraham. Also read Romans 11.

Salvation is the same for Jew and Gentile. I hope no one argues with that. But God has never revoked His covenant with Abraham. Israel exists as nation according to God's will as foretold in scripture. By the way, around 30% of the NT consists of quotes from the OT.

 

[brightfame52]

@Gideon300

This is how you end up in error, quote part of the scripture that fits your own interpretation and ignore the rest.

Lol really ? That ends our discussion, I wont be explaining anything else to you

 

[Aaron56]

I think the believer in Christ by necessity of who he/she is in Christ must work to reveal the truth that innocent children/babies are being slaughtered daily and also reveal what are lies and is plainly evil.

Surely, the world is such a mess because Christians have abdicated their duty in this world to be salt and light.

I get it. If the world were not evil it would be news worthy. As light, we can judge in the light of Truth. But judgment is just saying what something actually IS not the burden of changing the outcome.

Also, murder cannot be refined. Just because one murder adheres to the tenets of the Geneva Convention does not mean that the Lord approves of it. To be clear: I am markedly Anti-Zionism as it relates to physical Zion and anti-Islam, in all its arrangements. Ironically, both mindsets are of the same spirit that permit the murder of people. Like the Crusades before then, the only winner was the devil as the world was embroiled in war and killing in the name of "God".

I could expound on this more if you like. This is just a brief summary of my views.

 

[God-fearing]

The enmity in this tread is staggering. Some here deny what is right in front of their eyes.
The Lord said he would regather his people back in the land of their fathers......without a doubt this is happening. Fact.
Weather you paint it over with politics or covenant promise this is happening.
Some here speculate on 1948 being the hand of God or the hand of man nevertheless it is happening.....fact.
For the first time in 2000 yrs Jerusalem has become once again the capital of Israel......fact.
Some speculate of a third temple being built. Israel has made it known this is the intentions of there beliefs.......fact
End Time scriptures reveal a temple existing in the land of Israel. Focusing on the abomination of desolation.......fact
The Lord siad he would make it a cup of trembling to all the nations.......its beginning to be so......fact
The Lord said all nations will turn against Israel.......it has begun......fact.
Scriptures tell us lawlessness will be prevalent in the end times. Is it not?.........fact.

It doest take spiritual eyes to see what is happening and what has happened. The question is wheather it be God or man.
I tend to believe what God has said in his word.

I'll even go one step further....which narrative is closest to the facts?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I think the believer in Christ by necessity of who he/she is in Christ must work to reveal the truth that innocent children/babies are being slaughtered daily and also reveal what are lies and is plainly evil.Surely, the world is such a mess because Christians have abdicated their duty in this world to be salt and light.

Children were slaughtered, on Oct 7. Where is your outrage about that? Babies were taken hostage, strangled, murdered in their own homes. Murders were sent to families of loved ones by phone. Did Hamas not think this would start a war?! Any bloodshed is on the hands of Hamas and their supporters. Israel has given more quarter than any other nation at war. The world is full of suffering, and it's important to remember those who have been hurt, regardless of their background or location. If Israel is to be held accountable after sending several different types of notices that they were coming, then how much more guilty are Hamas for sneaking up on civilians early in the morning and slaughtering them in their beds?!

 

[Aaron56]

Arabs= Gentiles?? I'm assuming that's what you mean? Well, I see it from another side. I don't believe in OSAS. But I do believe that God is faithful when we aren't. I believe God is still calling us and the Jews to repent, giving us one last time to come to Him. I believe that God made a land promise to Abraham, where He swore an oath against himself saying "I Will". And I believe, according to Rom. 11, among other Scriptures, that God will restore Jews to their land and to Himself.

As far as Arabs my sister was blessed to be able to go on a mission trip to Africa. She said the missionaries there told her that many Muslims were having visions of Jesus and were getting saved and baptized. The Muslim religion is cruel, demonic and very hard to break free of because they are risking their lives. The fields are ripe. Many churches have a hard time finding missionaries willing to go. At this point in life I am unable to go unless the Lord makes a way. All I can do is pray.

From the perspective of Judaism Arabs are certainly Gentiles and not part of the Jewish fold.

Indeed, a great shift in the Arab world shifted in 2009 when the Iranians (Persians) began to protest election results. To them, they saw that their Islamic leaders were just as corrupt as some of their politicians.

They began to publicly claim "We are Iranians not Muslims!". This was against tradition whereby the people are told to distinguish themselves as "Muslim" by the Islamic leaders or face reprisal.

What occurred was a return to tribal gatherings: basically multi-generational family reunions. People gathered according to house name. Elders (both men and women) were "revealed" seemingly overnight, and, as the youth pined for guidance, they gathered around their grandfathers and grandmothers. Now broken from their Islamic yoke, they had a desire for wisdom from their elders.

Believers in Christ washed the feet of some Persians and Arabs admitting to and denouncing racism. Arabs and Persians did the same. Then, able to see, in Christ, that some people in the United States were sojourners in a foreign land just as they were in Iran, they broke out in praise to the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, yes indeed, the yoke of Islam cannot stand against the power of the Rock of Christ.

Aaron56

P.S. I will start a thread about the promises given to Ismael soon.

 

[Aaron56]

“Now lift up your eyes from the place where you are, and look to the north and south and east and west, for all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring forever

You do realize that "forever" can only be true if this is in the new earth after this one passes away, correct?
Also, what is the perspective of Abraham now? Maybe, the whole earth?

One covenant is temporal and conditional. The other is eternal. In Christ, the whole earth is His and that of His co-heirs'.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yep. seems somehow they missed the "don't go woke, go broke" scandal of Bud Light and decided to dive in head first. smh

It’s so incredible that mostly otherwise normal people even decent folk can think the woke ideology is the way to go or is even acceptable to other normal folk shaking my head too and my neck is riddled with arthritis

 

[God-fearing]

The Abraham Accords did not bring widespread peace to the Middle East, but rather normalized relations between Israel and a few Arab nations, namely the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan, and Morocco, by establishing diplomatic ties and fostering economic and security cooperation. Brokered by the Trump administration in 2020, the accords' overarching goal was to de-escalate regional tensions by encouraging countries to work together, largely by forming a united front against Iran. However, the agreements did not resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and have been overshadowed by ongoing conflicts and shifts in regional alliances, limiting their overall impact on peace.

part of why Gaza in the shape its in.
Note the name on the accords. An attempt to bring peace. Man's hand yes but by who's direction?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Great, and @Pilgrimshope and I are good too. Let's see if this can continue.

I’ll never have any personal issues with you even in a disagreement you are respectful and keep your good spirit about you , I respect the way you present your beliefs even if I don’t agree of see things the same way . Sincerely your enjoyable to discuss with

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well when I first started this conversation, under my other name, here years ago, I was pretty calm about it toI o. Back then a Holocaust denier hopped on and lit a match. I don't know if they are still here. I haven't settled whether there are deniers in this thread or not. I don't think this subject would be so heated except for Oct 7.

A lot of times a troll will come just to aggravate people here . I haven’t ever heard anyone deny the holocaust here. It sounds like a possible troll probably got banned after.

there’s no doubt the Jews have been the most persecuted people on the planet , no doubt about the holocaust happening . If anything it was understated the horrors the Jews endured in that time not only from Germany but many places were persecuting them with pure cruelty

there also no doubt God loves them and has given them forbearance for ages to repent of thier idolatry . But he was also warning then of terrible things that would happen if they broke his covenant . .

also bo doubt he promised a messiah and savior to redeem them from the curse they brought upon themselves through generations of idol worship and glorifying false dieties building high places to worship them on mountaintops ect

thier perpetual suffering is a result of idolatry even as they reject thier savior who’s arms still are reaching out to them , oh , that israel would repent and turn to Jesus as one people …….. the world would shake and tremble and be moved by the result

they still haven’t though they still are pursuing the retributions of Moses law rather then the peace of the gospel

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I’ll never have any personal issues with you even in a disagreement you are respectful and keep your good spirit about you , I respect the way you present your beliefs even if I don’t agree of see things the same way . Sincerely your enjoyable to discuss with

I feel the same way about you. Sometimes in the heat of several people talking at once, I can come across as upset at the wrong person. I certainly don't come here to make enemies. Some things we may disagree on, but other things we can agree strongly on. I don't sense any antisemitic feeling coming from you, just that we see the Bible differently. And we agree on Cracker Barrel, what can be more important than that?! lol Just a joke to lighten the mood.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I feel the same way about you. Sometimes in the heat of several people talking at once, I can come across as upset at the wrong person. I certainly don't come here to make enemies. Some things we may disagree on, but other things we can agree strongly on. I don't sense any antisemitic feeling coming from you, just that we see the Bible differently. And we agree on Cracker Barrel, what can be more important than that?! lol Just a joke to lighten the mood.

haha yeah that darn Cracker Barrel

and yes sometimes we are just passionate about our beliefs I think personally it’s understandable . The only time I feel uncomfortable is when someone is obviously and intentionally trying to offend and argue or acting like a teenager . But mostly you can observe peoples posts with others and sort of note thier intentions to argue and bicker or to discuss in a nature and somewhat friendly manner . The latter is the only reason I come here and it’s always appreciated and enjoyable when it’s found

no not at all am I anti semitic I’m not anti any people , I would absolutely love to see every israelite on the planet repent and believe the gospel and as many gentiles as possible Also . One day isrwel will shine , my own personal belief is that it’s going to happen jna shiny new world where all the promises will come to be forever . Just my opinion though .

And I’m not pro- any side in tbat cirrent conflict but moreso would love to see them stop killing each other over land . If that particular land is going to belong to Israel again or remain like it is before this world ends . I believe God will do it as he always does important things his way in his time to witness of his glory to all the world so all will know he is the lord .

i don’t believe this current cycle since ww2 ……is his way I believe it’s an effort by man to bring to pass things he said. And with ulterior motives as well . Again only an opinion

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

haha yeah that darn Cracker Barrel

and yes sometimes we are just passionate about our beliefs I think personally it’s understandable . The only time I feel uncomfortable is when someone is obviously and intentionally trying to offend and argue or acting like a teenager . But mostly you can observe peoples posts with others and sort of note thier intentions to argue and bicker or to discuss in a nature and somewhat friendly manner . The latter is the only reason I come here and it’s always appreciated and enjoyable when it’s found
no not at all am I anti semitic I’m not anti any people , I would absolutely love to see every israelite on the planet repent and believe the gospel and as many gentiles as possible Also . One day isrwel will shine , my own personal belief is that it’s going to happen jna shiny new world where all the promises will come to be forever . Just my opinion though .

And I’m not pro- any side in tbat cirrent conflict but moreso would love to see them stop killing each other over land . If that particular land is going to belong to Israel again or remain like it is before this world ends . I believe God will do it as he always does important things his way in his time to witness of his glory to all the world so all will know he is the lord .

i don’t believe this current cycle since ww2 ……is his way I believe it’s an effort by man to bring to pass things he said. And with ulterior motives as well . Again only an opinion

So much sadness in the world. I didn't turn on the news early this morning. Did some chores. When I did turn it on an hour ago I saw a mass shooting had occurred in MN at a Catholic church that also held school mass there. Two little ones lost their lives. More are in critical condition.

 

[Beckworth]

This is how you end up in error, quote part of the scripture that fits your own interpretation and ignore the rest.

Then the LORD said to Abram, “Leave your country, your kindred, and your father’s household, and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you.”

'And to you and your descendants I will give the land where you are residing—all the land of Canaan—as an eternal possession; and I will be their God.”

“Now lift up your eyes from the place where you are, and look to the north and south and east and west, for all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring forever

He remembers His covenant forever, the word He ordained for a thousand generations—the covenant He made with Abraham,
and the oath He swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: “I will give you the land of Canaan as the portion of your inheritance.”

“But you, O Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, descendant of Abraham My friend— / I brought you from the ends of the earth and called you from its farthest corners. I said, ‘You are My servant.’ I have chosen and not rejected you."

It does not mean that Jews are automatically saved. That is as false as saying that Israel is no longer God's nation or that they were not brought back to the land according to God's will.

I just had a discussion about this on another site. The scripture we were discussing was Genesis 17 where God is speaking to Abraham, again, and says that He will give “all the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING possession.” Verse 8. I did some study on that and here is what the SCHOLARS said, and I quote: “The word Everlasting in languages like the Hebrew and Greek does not always mean FOREVER or endless duration in the Bible. It can also refer to a long, indefinite period or an “age” lasting era.”

For example, also in Genesis 17, God said that the “covenant” He made with Abraham was also, EVERLASTING. But in Jeremiah 31:31 Jeremiah prophecies that one day God would make a NEW covenant with His people, not like the one He made with their fathers. Then, in Hebrews 8, the Holy Spirit says that the New Testament of Jesus Christ is the NEW covenant that Jeremiah spoke of —even quoting and repeating the prophecy he gave. To say a covenant is EVERLASTING and then say there will one day be another, NEW COVENANT, seems to be a contradiction, or a falsehood, but since I know the Bible does not lie or contradict itself, there must be another explanation.

Another example from that same chapter in Genesis is the EVERLASTING covenant of circumcision. God said it was EVERLASTING. But in 1 Corinthians 7:19, Paul, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit says circumcision is nothing. It’s not important anymore. It doesn’t matter anymore. Circumcision is not a law anymore to be obeyed, especially for Christians. How can that be if it is EVERLASTING? There has to be another explanation for these “seeming”contradictions.

I believe the scholars have the answer. These Old Testament promises were only to last for an “age” or an era. A significant event in Biblical history was the destruction of the Jews, their temple, and Jerusalem in AD 70. It destroyed the Jews as a Nation; it destroyed all of their genealogies. The Jews prided themselves on being the children of Abraham. Remember how the Jews bragged to Jesus about being descendants of Abraham? John 8:31-39? Now, since AD 70, there is not a Jew who can trace his ancestry back to Abraham. All of the records were destroyed. It was the end of an ERA, the end of an “AGE”. This happened in less than 40 years after Jesus took away their old law of Moses and nailed it to His cross. Colossians 2:14-17.

Now if 1) the EVERLASTING covenant promise in Genesis 17 is NOT forever as proven by Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8, AND 2) the EVERLASTING covenant of circumcision is not FOREVER as proven by the Holy Spirit through Paul in the New Testament, then it is logical to believe that 3) the EVERLASTING land promise was NOT FOREVER either, since they are all in the same chapter and in the same context.

You will not find ONE scripture in the NEW COVENANT that tells us to “bless”, support, or help the Jews. On the contrary, the New Covenant of Jesus Christ portrays them as “against Christ” (Antichrist) in 1 John 2:22, 4:3., enemies to the gospel Romans 11:28; and without God 1 John 2:23, 2 John 9. I will never stand with the ones who are against and reject my Savior—Jew or gentile. They cannot be God’s chosen people anymore. They don’t even have Gid as their FATHER. “ Whoevet DENIES THE SON, does NOT have the Father either..” 1 John 2:23.

 

[brightfame52]

@Beckworth

I just had a discussion about this on another site. The scripture we were discussing was Genesis 17 where God is speaking to Abraham, again, and says that He will give “all the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING possession.” Verse 8. I did some study on that and here is what the SCHOLARS said, and I quote: “The word Everlasting in languages like the Hebrew and Greek does not always mean FOREVER or endless duration in the Bible. It can also refer to a long, indefinite period or an “age” lasting era.”

Its eternal life in Glory, the New world to come, thats the everlasting possession of canaan. Thats why Abraham is said to be heir of the world Rom 4 13

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[TabinRivCA]

I just had a discussion about this on another site. The scripture we were discussing was Genesis 17 where God is speaking to Abraham, again, and says that He will give “all the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING possession.” Verse 8. I did some study on that and here is what the SCHOLARS said, and I quote: “The word Everlasting in languages like the Hebrew and Greek does not always mean FOREVER or endless duration in the Bible. It can also refer to a long, indefinite period or an “age” lasting era.”

For example, also in Genesis 17, God said that the “covenant” He made with Abraham was also, EVERLASTING. But in Jeremiah 31:31 Jeremiah prophecies that one day God would make a NEW covenant with His people, not like the one He made with their fathers. Then, in Hebrews 8, the Holy Spirit says that the New Testament of Jesus Christ is the NEW covenant that Jeremiah spoke of —even quoting and repeating the prophecy he gave. To say a covenant is EVERLASTING and then say there will one day be another, NEW COVENANT, seems to be a contradiction, or a falsehood, but since I know the Bible does not lie or contradict itself, there must be another explanation.

Another example from that same chapter in Genesis is the EVERLASTING covenant of circumcision. God said it was EVERLASTING. But in 1 Corinthians 7:19, Paul, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit says circumcision is nothing. It’s not important anymore. It doesn’t matter anymore. Circumcision is not a law anymore to be obeyed, especially for Christians. How can that be if it is EVERLASTING? There has to be another explanation for these “seeming”contradictions.

I believe the scholars have the answer. These Old Testament promises were only to last for an “age” or an era. A significant event in Biblical history was the destruction of the Jews, their temple, and Jerusalem in AD 70. It destroyed the Jews as a Nation; it destroyed all of their genealogies. The Jews prided themselves on being the children of Abraham. Remember how the Jews bragged to Jesus about being descendants of Abraham? John 8:31-39? Now, since AD 70, there is not a Jew who can trace his ancestry back to Abraham. All of the records were destroyed. It was the end of an ERA, the end of an “AGE”. This happened in less than 40 years after Jesus took away their old law of Moses and nailed it to His cross. Colossians 2:14-17.

Now if 1) the EVERLASTING covenant promise in Genesis 17 is NOT forever as proven by Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8, AND 2) the EVERLASTING covenant of circumcision is not FOREVER as proven by the Holy Spirit through Paul in the New Testament, then it is logical to believe that 3) the EVERLASTING land promise was NOT FOREVER either, since they are all in the same chapter and in the same context.

You will not find ONE scripture in the NEW COVENANT that tells us to “bless”, support, or help the Jews. On the contrary, the New Covenant of Jesus Christ portrays them as “against Christ” (Antichrist) in 1 John 2:22, 4:3., enemies to the gospel Romans 11:28; and without God 1 John 2:23, 2 John 9. I will never stand with the ones who are against and reject my Savior—Jew or gentile. They cannot be God’s chosen people anymore. They don’t even have Gid as their FATHER. “ Whoevet DENIES THE SON, does NOT have the Father either..” 1 John 2:23.

Apparently God did not get the memo, as He is the One who has been blessing and supporting Israel. How do you think Israel is still standing when nations tried to destroy Israel after the 1948 establishment of Israel as a NATION. As per the documentart below, God is for Israel and thus, so am I.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So much sadness in the world. I didn't turn on the news early this morning. Did some chores. When I did turn it on an hour ago I saw a mass shooting had occurred in MN at a Catholic church that also held school mass there. Two little ones lost their lives. More are in critical condition.

Yes I had the same experience hadn’t turned the news on for two days then saw that.

Seems like the love has grown cold

 

[brightfame52]

The only Israel God is interested in and is blessing is the Israel of God the Body of Christ, new creatures in Christ Gal 6

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.