Israel... or not?

[valiant]

So do you pray, "Our Father Abraham, hallowed be thy name, thy Kingdom come..."

May I suggest you see a doctor?

You can choose which Tribe you want to be from,

As it is irrelevant, yes. I can name myself as any tribe I like.

and choose who you want to be your Father,

not my choice, God's in Rom 4. But you must distinguish Father from father. It is this lack of discernment that explains why you are deep in heresy.

a

s for me and my house...
...we shall serve the Lord.

In context that statement represents the kind of arrogance I have come to expect from you. You are most unpleasant.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by wolfwint Jesus plan with us christians (jews ore gentile in christ till our meeting with the Lord in the air 2.Thess. will take place, the rapture) is different to his folk the descendes of Jacob, which are then still on earth, while we christians are with the Lord.

What a sad view of God you have..

Why is our hope of the Rapture, a Biblical Doctrine taught by Paul...sad?

The Gospel is the ultimate of God's plan.

In terms of Redemption, no question. But that does not mean God saved us to leave us in this fallen Creation.

Culmination of Salvation is the Eternal State in which we will all be redeemed ultimately from fallen flesh, which occurs at death, but, physical death is not the end either.

Hence Paul's teaching that the entire Church, both dead and living...will be glorified at the Rapture.

Not sad, but a glorious event some of us await in great anticipation.

It is the way of salvation for ALL who will believe from Adam onwards.

Not according to Scripture: The Gospel of Jesus Christ was unknown to all men until Pentecost.

Adam had no clue as to the specifics which we have had revealed to us.

The cross and resurrection and infusion of the Holy Spirit were God's ultimate accomplishment. Nothing more is needed

"Infusion of the Holy Spirit?"

The Holy Spirit is not a substance, or a force, He is God, and it is not infusion, it is immersion.

We are placed in God and God in us.

Nothing more is needed

Speak for yourself:


Romans 8:23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body


Oh glorious day!

Why would He then go back to the beggarly, failing ways of the Old Testament which you admit yourself results in an earthly kingdom and an earthly king who fail in the end?

Where do you get that the King will fail?

How is that which is taught by Christ going back to the beggarly elements?

Is that how you view this Age, seeing Redemption has not reached it's culmination yet?

I know you will not agree, but this is what i believe. So I cant choose the tribe which I want I am different. I am His child and adoptet in His family. Thank you Lord for that!

You are dead right there. This 'choosing of a tribe' came from your side.

On the contrary, that is specific to your teaching:

What do you think happened to proselytes when they became Jews? They chose which group of Jews they would belong to, whichever tribe suited them.

you cannot be a saved Gentile. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. All are one in the true Israel.

Actually as an ex-Gentile who has become a proselyte of the true Israel you can choose which tribe you wish to belong to

It is the kind of petty thinking you all love to indulge.

Actually it is simply taking Scripture at it's Word.

There will be a Rapture, there will be a Millennial Kingdom, and there will be a passing away of this current existence which will yield to the new heavens and earth.

You cannot see the wood for the trees..

We eagerly long to see those Trees which we do not yet see...


Revelation 22

King James Version (KJV)
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.



God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I am special I belong to all the tribes

I don't need to. I simply use common sense. Which tribe did Rahab belong to? Which tribe did Uriah the Hittite belong to? Or don't you think he was a YHWH worshipper?. Which tribe did each Gentile proselyte belong to? They belonged to whichever tribe they settled amongst.. Try and use your brains for a change

Doesn't make them of Israel.

Was Cornelius of Israel?


Acts 10

King James Version (KJV)
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.


[SUP]22 [/SUP]And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.



[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

[SUP]35 [/SUP]But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


[SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Acts makes it clear there is a distinction between saved Jews and Gentiles. This has always been the case. Proselytization allowed Gentiles to be a part of worship of the One True God, but they did not lose their distinction as Gentiles.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by JaumeJ The resistance to the entire Word of God, that is Jesus Christ, is prevalent in many of the responses in this thread

A perverse lie repeated endlessly around here. Resistance to the entire Word of God is simply a euphemism for resistance to keeping the law. A deceitful framing of language designed to seduce and subvert unsuspecting minds.

It's not a lie. Those who say they are "keeping the Law" detract from the Whole Counsel to arrive at the conclusion that the (Covenant of) Law must still be kept, and those who do not...sin.

<snip>

No need to get snippy.




God bless.

 

[JGIG]

Yes I do agree. There are only three groups in the Bible; the house of Judah, Israel and the Dogs (gentiles out of covenant)

Um, no.

Three groups, yes.

Your labels, no.

Israel (aka Jews and the 'Northern kingdom', though by the time of Christ, they were all considered Jews and referred to as such by the writers of the New Covenant Scriptures), Gentiles, and the Body of Christ are the three groups.

I don't cease to be a Gentile because I'm in Christ - I become a part of the Body of Christ. I'm a part of the Body who happens to be a Gentile. Were I a Jew, it would be the same - I wouldn't cease to be a Jew, but my primary identity would be as one in Christ, and part of His Body. I'd be a part of the Body who happened to be a Jew.

No one is being 'replaced'; no one changes their ethnicity.

Those who enter into the New Covenant do so by faith in Christ and become part of His Body. Ephesians calls it 'One New Man'.

Jews enter into the New Covenant promised to them in Jeremiah 31. Gentiles enter into the only covenant by which they may draw near to God by faith in Christ - this is the mystery of the Gospel spoken of in Ephesians 2 and 3, whereby the Promise given to Adam and Eve after the Fall is fulfilled.

GandalfTheWhite defines Gentiles as 'dogs/gentiles out of covenant'. That is a false definition and one put forth by those who adhere to variants of British Israelism (the 'Ephraimites/Lost Tribes' theology).

Biblically defined, the term Gentile simply means anyone who is not ethnic Israel. Simple as that.

-JGIG

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M Nor is forgetting your lineage.

And inventing it, and altering it, and establishing family traditions based on what you wish had been. And wanting to give an impression that impresses others. And intermarriage. And generations that don't care. Thus no one can be sure who comes from where.

Mythology, plain and simple, which does not correlate to what Scripture testifies.

Still waiting for the Basis of your belief/s.

So far nothing but insult and opinion.

Not to mention a denial of the very testimony of Scripture.

If you think life is as simple as that, be simple I'm not stopping you.

Tis a far better thing I do, to be simple...and simply take God at His Word.

Rather than think that "Scholars" can circumvent the teachings of Scripture.

What historical fact can you produce that nullifies the testimony of Scripture?

There is no testimony of Scripture about such things.

There is. Why do you think two Gospels include genealogies?

How do you think Paul knew he was of the Tribe of Benjamin?

How do you think people knew that Christ was the Son of David?

Try not to be foolish. How can Scripture testify to a person's lineage.#

It's done in a number of Books. Genesis, Chronicles, Matthew, and Luke to name a few.

But Scripture DOES make clear that the idea that the Jews are all direct descendants of Jacob is utter rubbish. Try reading it discerning for a change.

Please show a Biblical Basis for your statement.

No-one is saying that there are no Gentiles listed in genealogies, the issue is whether those of the Tribes can know they are of a particular Tribe, and whether the mythology that Israel ceased to exist is a credible view.

So, use Scripture to make it clear.

Give me a source.

will tomato source do?

lol...good one.

Now...give me a source.

Preferably a Scriptural source. I am simple enough to take the position that "Scholars" cannot be trusted, but only God's Word can be.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Still shows that the meticulous nature of Jews which I would think five generations should pretty much clarify the issue.

If you call that meticulous give me a laugh. I know my family for five generations. It proves nothing about my past.

Your defeating your own argument, lol.

Even you claim to know your family for five generations back.

How much more a people that took far more pride in their heritage than the average Gentiles?

Ant the ones who could go back five generations were the minority.

Have no clue what you mean.

Study your history.

My family on my mother's side goes back to Germany. My family on my Father's side goes back to Ireland. There was mingling of different peoples but the primary traits I seem to have blessed (or cursed) with is that of an Irish Heritage.

On both sides I can trace my lineage back to Adam.

Demands a pure bloodline.

Pure bloodlines are VERY rare.

Not going to argue that, in regards to Gentiles. But even today Jews are a very separate people. That is why we have so many types seen, Russian Jews, Polish Jews, et cetera. They maintain their heritage, just a simple fact.

And that separation is why they were easily rounded up by Nazis in the 20th Century.

They do not need to know which tribe they are from to be Jews. Did Joseph or Mary? lol

LOL of course Joseph knew which tribe he was from.

Again...you defeat your argument.

And again...they do not need to know which tribe they are from to be Jews, which point you completely ignore, as you do most of the points.

He was the heir to the throne of Israel.

That is debatable, being a descendant of David does not necessarily mean one is heir to the Throne of Israel.

Christ had brothers who were also descended from David and not one of them was the Heir...only Christ.

But they live at the time when the Temple records were intact. Not 2000 years later.

This is again mythology which is not even rooted in common sense: the Temple was destroyed over 600 years before and somehow...they managed to keep the Tribes straight.

Continued...

 

[JaumeJ]

I have found the need to put many on ignore due to not listening to what is posted, not reading that wo which they are replying or just being stupid.

Being obedient is not being under the law. Anyone who has received the Love that is God knows that living in grace produces obedience in the manner taught by Jesus Christ, and shown by His own example.

Twist that again, but do not call the children of obedience liars. That is the spawn of Satan, for it is lie. This is directed tot eh post you have quoted because I have no communication with such. He always either get what he reads twisted, or he is just lying himself.......God bless all........

It's not a lie. Those who say they are "keeping the Law" detract from the Whole Counsel to arrive at the conclusion that the (Covenant of) Law must still be kept, and those who do not...sin.



No need to get snippy.




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Actually it is not:


2 Kings 17:24

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof.


Gentiles were imported.

When they come to assist in the rebuilding, they are refused:


Ezra 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the Lord God of Israel;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then they came to Zerubbabel, and to the chief of the fathers, and said unto them, Let us build with you: for we seek your God, as ye do; and we do sacrifice unto him since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assur, which brought us up hither.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them, Ye have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the Lord God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us.

LOL how does that prove who the Samaritans of Jesus day were?

It doesn't, it addresses your denial that foreigners were imported during occupation of the Northern Kingdom and that Samaritans were a distinct people inter-related to the House of Israel...but not of the House of Israel.

In the second quote they sought to align themselves with Israel and they were rejected.

In Christ's day He distinguishes them from the House of Israel as well as the Gentiles.

Israel, Gentiles, and Samaritans, three distinct peoples.

They claimed to be from the tribe of Ephraim.

Doesn't change the fact that Samaritans are a distinct people.

But I suppose as they were not Jews (who must always be believed)

Why do you make the statement "Jews must always believe?"

Please explain. This sounds a bit contemptuous.

we cannot believe them.

We can't?

This also sounds contemptuous, and a bit racist.

Please explain why we cannot "believe Jews?"

I believe quite a few Jews, beginning with Christ and going through quite a few Apostles. We can predate these and assume we can believe Moses (though in His day the term "Jew," which derives from the Kingdom of Judah during Israel's divided state, was not being used yet). We can assume we can believe the Prophets. The Psalmists.

Please explain why you think we cannot "believe Jews?"


Continued...

 

[dcontroversal]

We are the seed of God, the stock of our Lord.

God is our Father, not Abraham. Our faith is not through the example of Abraham, it is the result of the Ministry of the Holy Ghost.


God bless.

I suggest you read the bible pal....Paul said clearly to a Gentile Church that by faith we are ALL OF THE SEED AND STOCK OF ABRAHAM BY FAITH and under the New Covenant both Jews and Gentiles have been brought together under ONE BANNER UNDER THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM......

 

[P1LGR1M]

You are so naïve.

With good reason:

Matthew 18:3

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven

If the opposing side to naivety is "Scholarship" then I pray the Lord keep me naïve.

The Lord distinguishes between Samaritans, Jews, and Gentiles:


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Now I ask you, is the Lord confused that Samaritans are not Jews of the House of Israel (the very name of the Northern Kingdom) nor Gentiles?

Jesus was using the definitions of His day.

We can trace the term Samaritan back to 2 Kings.

You bypass the point and ignore that Christ distinguishes between the House of Israel and Samaritans. Both from the area of the Northern Kingdom, and it is Samaritans and Gentiles the Lord commands His disciples...not to go to.

He was come for the Lost Sheep of Israel...only.

Many former Israelite were excluded from 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'.

Then they were not of the House of Israel, which makes moot any kind of point you think you might be making with this statement.


Matthew 15:21-24

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


If they were not of Israel then they are not in view.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

I suggest you read the bible pal....Paul said clearly to a Gentile Church that by faith we are ALL OF THE SEED AND STOCK OF ABRAHAM BY FAITH and under the New Covenant both Jews and Gentiles have been brought together under ONE BANNER UNDER THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM......

As I said, if you think to make Abraham your father, feel free, you have that liberty.

Just keep in mind that God can raise up children unto Abraham from stones.


God bless

 

[dcontroversal]

As I said, if you think to make Abraham your father, feel free, you have that liberty.

Just keep in mind that God can raise up children unto Abraham from stones.


God bless

Your missing the point and the truth....argue what God inspired Paul to write all day long..matters not to me....I suggest you climb to the top of the tree that is blinding you to the truth of the reference I made and see the forest pal!...

 

[P1LGR1M]

They were drop outs like the Samaritans.

Try to focus...we are speaking about Israel.

And that members of Israel are still capable of being saved is very clear:


Romans 11:19-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


It is not Israel they are grafted back into, it is the Provision of God they are grafted back into. This too is a common misconception which helps contribute to the mythology surrounding Israel.

It was a technical definition.

I guess "Gentile" was a technical definition as well, lol.

The people you described WERE Gentiles.

No...they were Gentiles, Samaritans, and the House of Israel.

The Bible makes that pretty clear:


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


I would agree it is technical, however, the mythology tries to make it a technical difficulty.

Nothing difficult about it: we can trust Christ knew who He was speaking about.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Your missing the point and the truth....argue what God inspired Paul to write all day long..matters not to me....I suggest you climb to the top of the tree that is blinding you to the truth of the reference I made and see the forest pal!...

Again, "pal," lol.

Why call me pal when you are clearly hostile and insulting?

But I believe you, my friend:

argue what God inspired Paul to write all day long..matters not to me....

It is clear that arguing the Inspired Word of God doesn't matter to you.

As I said, feel free to call Abraham your father, I choose to see my Father as God. I am a child of God, not a child of Abraham. I am more a spiritual child of Paul than Abraham.

And this "father" gave a life of example of why we should dispute with those who are erroneous in their doctrine.


God bless.

 

[JaumeJ]

Israel is one nation. Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations. We know Israel was the first nation of God and linked to Abraham directly by blood, and not to forget, spirit. Therefore those other nations are not Israel, and they, we, are adopted by spirit as descendants of Abraham.

 

[james57]

As I said, feel free to call Abraham your father, I choose to see my Father as God. I am a child of God, not a child of Abraham. I am more a spiritual child of Paul than Abraham.

And this "father" gave a life of example of why we should dispute with those who are erroneous in their doctrine.


God bless.

So then, he(Abraham) is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. Rom 4:11&12

 

[dcontroversal]

Again, "pal," lol.

Why call me pal when you are clearly hostile and insulting?

But I believe you, my friend:


It is clear that arguing the Inspired Word of God doesn't matter to you.

As I said, feel free to call Abraham your father, I choose to see my Father as God. I am a child of God, not a child of Abraham. I am more a spiritual child of Paul than Abraham.

And this "father" gave a life of example of why we should dispute with those who are erroneous in their doctrine.


God bless.

Do not confuse emphatic with hostilities PAL.....I am a child of God as well by Faith..the same FAITH ABRAHAM HAD....THE SAME FAITH THAT BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES FALL UNDER IF THEY BELIEVE....JESUS, ABRAHAM, PAUL AND ALL WHO BELIEVE HAVE ONE FATHER IN HEAVEN, but you still miss the point and truth of the biblical reference that I made....you are going to seed on one point while ignoring all of the other truths associated with your point........PAL

 

[P1LGR1M]

So that's your theory collapsed.

On the contrary, you are actually proving the points I have raised.

I look forward to seeing you explain your contempt for Jews.

As I said early on, the mythology is usually racist motivated, and there is simply no room in the heart or Theology of the Born Again Believer for...racist attitude.

Wikip

edia? lol

No, scholarly works. But you wouldn't know anything about those.

Well, thanks for admitting your basis of belief is extra-biblical.

That is something I know all about, because I have debated you on many forums.

Different person...same error.

If they are not of Jewish origin, then they are Gentiles. IF they are not of Gentile origin, they are Jews.

RUBBISH. So any Gentile proselyte was not a Jew even though the Jews accepted him as one? You talk nonsense

No, a Gentile Proselyte was not a Jew...he was a proselyte.

We don't take on a Jewish Heritage when we are saved, nor does the Jew have a mandate to forsake his. Paul was willing to perform a ritual that would end in an offering, but no Gentile could have gone in with him and done the same.

Your doctrine overlooks some very basic principles my friend, and I have to wonder just what motivates embracing mythology and casting off Scripture.

W

ell now how in the word would you know that...seeing that you are trying to prove nobody knows who they are? lol

Try not to be childish

Am not! So nyaah!

But you are quite right no one knows who they really are. I don't? Do you? All I know is that I am now a member of true Israel by the grace of God.

And you understand that the Israel of God is not distinctly Jewish? You understand that Gentile and Jew are a new man, not the old?

You say you are a member of the True Israel, I don't have a problem with that.

What I have a problem is you teaching mythology and extra-biblical fancy as truth.

There is a physical Israel still in this world, and they will play a part in the Prophecy yet unfulfilled. And that truth can be seen in both Old and New Testament Prophecy.


God bless.

 

[james57]

Do not confuse emphatic with hostilities PAL.....I am a child of God as well by Faith..the same FAITH ABRAHAM HAD....THE SAME FAITH THAT BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES FALL UNDER IF THEY BELIEVE....JESUS, ABRAHAM, PAUL AND ALL WHO BELIEVE HAVE ONE FATHER IN HEAVEN, but you still miss the point and truth of the biblical reference that I made....you are going to seed on one point while ignoring all of the other truths associated with your point........PAL

If we accept, that only the brilliant academic mind of man(bereft of the holy Spirits leading) could ignore so many plain verses of scripture all prophecying of specific blessings for the physical Jews in the end times, we have to accept that it is always going to be difficult for those prepared to accept the prophecies because of the holy Spirits conviction in them, to have any harmony with those who rather rely on the academic mind to learn in this matter. The two will never reach agreement, for they cannot