Israel... or not?

[valiant]

Jesus plan with us christians (jews ore gentile in christ till our meeting with the Lord in the air 2.Thess. will take place, the rapture) is different to his folk the descendes of Jacob, which are then still on earth, while we christians are with the Lord.

What a sad view of God you have.. The Gospel is the ultimate of God's plan. It is the way of salvation for ALL who will believe from Adam onwards. The cross and resurrection and infusion of the Holy Spirit were God's ultimate accomplishment. Nothing more is needed

Why would He then go back to the beggarly, failing ways of the Old Testament which you admit yourself results in an earthly kingdom and an earthly king who fail in the end?

I know you will not agree, but this is what i believe. So I cant choose the tribe which I want I am different. I am His child and adoptet in His family. Thank you Lord for that!

You are dead right there. This 'choosing of a tribe' came from your side. It is the kind of petty thinking you all love to indulge. You cannot see the wood for the trees..

 

[valiant]

Which of the twelve tribes of Israel do you belong to, clarify to those in this Discussion Forum,where in scripture you can choose which tribe you belong to.

I am special I belong to all the tribes

I don't need to. I simply use common sense. Which tribe did Rahab belong to? Which tribe did Uriah the Hittite belong to? Or don't you think he was a YHWH worshipper?. Which tribe did each Gentile proselyte belong to? They belonged to whichever tribe they settled amongst.. Try and use your brains for a change

 

[JaumeJ]

The resistance to the entire Word of God, that is Jesus Christ, is prevalent in many of the responses in this thread.

For me it is quite simple, thought GTW has given more than necessary to understand who the saved are.

Our Salvation, Jesus Christ, or if you prefer, Yeshua, was of Israel, specifically of the tribe of Judah as prophesied. He is, according to Isaiah, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, God Almighty, Wonderful, Counselor, and much more. He came to us in this age to give us the Gospel which He also gave to Abraham. He teaches we are of the faith of Abraham.

When He waas crucified for our faults, our sin, Pontius Pilate unwittingly in the spirit of prophesy had inscribed over our Blessed Lord's Head, King of the Jews, in Latin, Greek and Hebrew it was.

He is my King, and the King of all who believe. Learn the actual translation of Judah, the entire etymology, and you will see, all who believe are of Israel and Jews by translation. Until then, beware of using the Word Jew inddescrimiently for we are being called by God's name, Yahweh, when we know who we are.

Finally, all who study the Word in earnest are well aware, that we as disciples of Jesus Chrsit await God' bring New Jerusalem down to us. Now this is the Jerusalem from above spoken of in the Word, the Jerusalem of those who are truly free. Those who are truly free ar3e not afraid of the term Jew or Israeli in regarding spiritual affairs for we are free of the traditions of man handed down as commandment from God, Yahweh.

You do not need to go to any extreme to understand Jesus Christ was a Jew for a reason........read about all of thisin the Prophets. Remember the first belivers of Jesus Christ learned all from the manuscripts of teh Children of Israel, the Old Testament.

Do not be ashamed of our spiritual forefathers, or they will be ashameed of you. God renamed Abram to Abraham, that is from father of a multitude to honored father of a multitude, so honor him as the founder of the true faith. It is NOT a denomination, it is true believe, amen.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The resistance to the entire Word of God, that is Jesus Christ, is prevalent in many of the responses in this thread

<snip>

A perverse lie repeated endlessly around here. Resistance to the entire Word of God is simply a euphemism for resistance to keeping the law. A deceitful framing of language designed to seduce and subvert unsuspecting minds.

 

[valiant]

Nor is forgetting your lineage.

And inventing it, and altering it, and establishing family traditions based on what you wish had been. And wanting to give an impression that impresses others. And intermarriage. And generations that don't care. Thus no one can be sure who comes from where.

If you think life is as simple as that, be simple I'm not stopping you.

What historical fact can you produce that nullifies the testimony of Scripture?

There is no testimony of Scripture about such things. Try not to be foolish. How can Scripture testify to a person's lineage.#

But Scripture DOES make clear that the idea that the Jews are all direct descendants of Jacob is utter rubbish. Try reading it discerning for a change.

Give me a source.

will tomato source do?

Still shows that the meticulous nature of Jews which I would think five generations should pretty much clarify the issue.

If you call that meticulous give me a laugh. I know my family for five generations. It proves nothing about my past. Ant the ones who could go back five generations were the minority. Study your history.

Demands a pure bloodline.

Pure bloodlines are VERY rare.

They do not need to know which tribe they are from to be Jews. Did Joseph or Mary? lol

LOL of course Joseph knew which tribe he was from. He was the heir to the throne of Israel. But they live at the time when the Temple records were intact. Not 2000 years later.

Actually it is not:


2 Kings 17:24

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof.


Gentiles were imported.

When they come to assist in the rebuilding, they are refused:


Ezra 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the Lord God of Israel;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then they came to Zerubbabel, and to the chief of the fathers, and said unto them, Let us build with you: for we seek your God, as ye do; and we do sacrifice unto him since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assur, which brought us up hither.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them, Ye have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the Lord God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us.

LOL how does that prove who the Samaritans of Jesus day were? They claimed to be from the tribe of Ephraim. But I suppose as they were not Jews (who must always be believed) we cannot believe them. You are so naïve.

The Lord distinguishes between Samaritans, Jews, and Gentiles:


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Now I ask you, is the Lord confused that Samaritans are not Jews of the House of Israel (the very name of the Northern Kingdom) nor Gentiles?

Jesus was using the definitions of His day. Many former Israelite were excluded from 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'. They were drop outs like the Samaritans. It was a technical definition. The people you described WERE Gentiles. So that's your theory collapsed.

Wikipedia? lol

No, scholarly works. But you wouldn't know anything about those.

If they are not of Jewish origin, then they are Gentiles. IF they are not of Gentile origin, they are Jews.

RUBBISH. So any Gentile proselyte was not a Jew even though the Jews accepted him as one? You talk nonsense

Well now how in the word would you know that...seeing that you are trying to prove nobody knows who they are? lol

Try not to be childish But you are quite right no one knows who they really are. I don't? Do you? All I know is that I am now a member of true Israel by the grace of God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I am special I belong to all the tribes

I don't need to. I simply use common sense. Which tribe did Rahab belong to? Which tribe did Uriah the Hittite belong to? Or don't you think he was a YHWH worshipper?. Which tribe did each Gentile proselyte belong to? They belonged to whichever tribe they settled amongst.. Try and use your brains for a change

Many's definition of faith precludes using their minds.

 

[JaumeJ]

Abraham was promised by God to be the father of nations. Now, the Twelve Tribes of Israel were all compnents of Issrael, so the promise to our father, Abraham did not concern the physical Israel, but all the nations.

I believe this helps to clear up the muddle in thought on this subject.

Abraham is spiritually my forefather, there is no other. God has taken me in because of Jesus Christ as His child along with all other children descended spiritually of Abraham, that is the faith of Abraham.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And inventing it, and altering it, and establishing family traditions based on what you wish had been. And wanting to give an impression that impresses others. And intermarriage. And generations that don't care. Thus no one can be sure who comes from where.

If you think life is as simple as that, be simple I'm not stopping you.

In cultures in which lineage is preeminent, where no genealogy exists, one will be invented. All it takes is teaching one generation that they descend from such-and-such, and it will perpetuate as reality.

 

[P1LGR1M]

We are the seed and stock of Abraham by faith.....

We are the seed of God, the stock of our Lord.

God is our Father, not Abraham. Our faith is not through the example of Abraham, it is the result of the Ministry of the Holy Ghost.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I understand that, but nothing is in the Bible by accident if you serve a perfect God . I am not trying to make something spiritual or even read much into it but it is a fact that only 153 instances were recorded of Jesus ministering one on one. Is it a coincidence? You decide

Could you list them?




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

If I have to take a guess I would say Ephraim because he became a multitude of nations but I don't know. I know that the new Jerusalem will have 12 gates and Israel do have 12 tribes

And we see also that there are the 12 Apostles listed as well:


Revelation 21:10-14

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
While the Twelve Tribes are distinctly of Israel, and the Twelve Apostles distinctly Jewish, New Jerusalem is the abode of the One Man, the One Fold, rather than distinctly of Israel.

Here...


Matthew 19:28

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


...we see judgment spoken of, and we have to ask, will there be judgment in the Eternal State?

Not likely...


Revelation 20:14

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



Revelation 21

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


So who is judged and when?

The Millennial Kingdom.

The Twelve Apostles represent the Church, the Twelve Tribes represent Israel.

Better to be part of the Foundation than part of the wall, right?




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Sorry but these folks dont stand a chance.

Sure they do:


Revelation 12

King James Version (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Revelation 12:13-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


How exactly do you see that they "don't stand a chance?"

The records were kept in the temple.

AD70 is not the first time the Temple was destroyed, my friend. They managed to keep their names straight after the first destruction.


2 Kings 25:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he burnt the house of the Lord, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire.


This took place over 600 years before the Second Destruction of the Temple.

Yet we see Levites still known, Paul knew He was of the Tribe of Benjamin, and many people acknowledged that Christ was of the Tribe of Judah.

Oooops, completely destroyed 70 AD.

Oops, completely destroyed in 586 BC.




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Total assumption.

So explain why Samaritans are not called Jews and specifically said not to be of the House of Israel, and they are not called Gentiles.

That's all you have to do.

These things have been layed out in detail

Could you give a post number, a Scripture, something to support this claim?

that you cannot refute,

I did refute it, now you can address that refutation.

hence yer assumed declaration of hate mongering.

Look, I did not say anyone here was hate mongering, I simply stated that these types of mythologies have a racist agenda behind them.

Particularly the "Ten Lost Tribes" mythology. I know this because I have debated with racists who affirm this mythology.

So you can address the Scripture I have supplied which is the basis for my rejection of these mythologies, and we can take it from there.

Tamara had TWO sons.

Great. Supply Scripture and context and we can discuss it.

Jacob had Twelve Sons, that is what is in view in the discussion.

Israel.


God bless.

 

[valiant]

We are the seed of God, the stock of our Lord.

God is our Father, not Abraham. Our faith is not through the example of Abraham, it is the result of the Ministry of the Holy Ghost.


God bless.

So Abraham is not our father? LOL I've just obliterated Romans 4 for heresy.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Of course they did, the temple was still standing.

The truth is that in this day the Temple was still being rebuilt.

What you are forgetting is that Solomon's Temple was destroyed, which dismantles the reasoning that "everybody forgot which Tribe they were of because the Temple was destroyed in AD 70."

Mary's cousin Elisabeth's husband was a Levite.

How did she know that?

This only illustrates that the reasoning of mythology is illogical.

Not of Judah.

You do understand "Judah" is the name of the Southern Kingdom, right? And is to be distinguished from the Tribe?

They just happened to live in Judea.

So why did they know which Tribe they were of when the Temple was destroyed over 600 years before?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

So Abraham is not our father? LOL I've just obliterated Romans 4 for heresy.

So do you pray, "Our Father Abraham, hallowed be thy name, thy Kingdom come..."

...?

You can choose which Tribe you want to be from, and choose who you want to be your Father, as for me and my house...

...we shall serve the Lord.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

That might explain that some on this site appear to be Barking!

Grrrr....




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I am sure you are right. But my hope is that my representation of the truth will help OTHERS not to go astray.

It is not our exegetical tools or hermeneutics that are the problem. It is how we see prophecy. I believe that the prophets prophesied themes and how the future would unfold, you think each prophecy is speaking of only one event. Furthermore I allow the New Testament to guide my interpretation, something you fail to do.




]

Would you "represent" the truth found here...



Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Thanks in advance.


God bless.

 

[valiant]

The truth is that in this day the Temple was still being rebuilt.

What you are forgetting is that Solomon's Temple was destroyed, which dismantles the reasoning that "everybody forgot which Tribe they were of because the Temple was destroyed in AD 70."

you really are so naïve, Solomon's temple was not destroyed in such a way that the Jews were forced to leave, nor have we any grounds for thinking that Solomon's temple held genealogies. You really do grasp at straws.

How did she know that?

Because he was a priest ministering in the Temple, a privilege given only to those who could prove their lineage. Requirements were different for serving priests from anyone else.

You do understand "Judah" is the name of the Southern Kingdom, right? And is to be distinguished from the Tribe?

lol such scholarship. Judah included ALL the tribes of Israel.

So why did they know which Tribe they were of when the Temple was destroyed over 600 years before?

your naivete is so sad, They knew which tribe they were of because their fathers told them. Of course they did not know if it was true or not.

 

[valiant]

And we see also that there are the 12 Apostles listed as well:


Revelation 21:10-14

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
While the Twelve Tribes are distinctly of Israel, and the Twelve Apostles distinctly Jewish, New Jerusalem is the abode of the One Man, the One Fold, rather than distinctly of Israel.

Here...


Matthew 19:28

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


...we see judgment spoken of, and we have to ask, will there be judgment in the Eternal State?

Not likely...


Revelation 20:14

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



Revelation 21

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


So who is judged and when?

The Millennial Kingdom.

The Twelve Apostles represent the Church, the Twelve Tribes represent Israel.

Better to be part of the Foundation than part of the wall, right?




God bless.

Well when the building represents PEOPLE, the bride of Christ, it does not matter which part you are connected with. Compare 1 Cor 12.12 ff.

But the bride of Christ comes down into the eternal kingdom, not some spurious millennium.