Is Catholicism the Oldest Christian Faith?

[Pilgrimshope]

Why do people stray from it if it were the original Christian doctrine? How does one know one's Christian walk is true with thousands of Christian sects each purporting to be the truth and damning other sects to hell? Why do we put so much faith in our own opinions and call it God's opinion? Doesn't Christianity claim value to humility? How does thinking our opinion is God's opinion classify as such?

every denomination believes thier “ the true church “ from Catholicism to Protestants to Baptist’s ect.

Catholicism came about through rome several of thier practices contradict Christ’s teachings I think is why a lot of folks reject it.

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Catholics go to the priest “ forgive
Me father for I Have sinned “

just one example Catholics like all denominations believe they have the real doctrine , the truth is there’s only one church and denomination has no part in it . There will be those of
Many denominations in Gods kingdom it’s a matter of the individual faith in Gods true word .

denominations are simply division among believers . Many in one country call themselves catholic , another call thrmselves Protestant others Baptist

none of those titles will get anyone into the lords kingdom normeill
Any of those man made titles exclude
Anyone . What will matter is repentance and belief in the gospel

just a final point nominee should be judging others based on what denomination they call home but rather we should be mindful of what kind of life they live , do they care for mothers or are they selfish ? Do they judge others ? Or are they forgiving ? Do they use Christ as an excuse to live guilt free in sin ? Or are they walking in and following after repentance and righteousness ?

 

[Athanasius377]

Your theology historically is heretical as a law of the fathers (oral traditions of men) . They are the same ones that call all of the other private interpretation as personal commentaries of men who rightly divide (sola scriptura ) a heresy making their heresy (opinion) as if it was the Devine Master. .
The non private interpretation of men Gods interpretation the bible must be put on the back burner. It has no authroity to those who seek after a law of men .

First, the tradition of the Elders as described in Mark 7 is later codified into the Mishnah and cam be found along with a commentary in the Talmud. That is not the same hazy oral traditions of men. Christians of course reject the Talmud as authoritative.

Second, Sola Scriptura is the doctrine by which Scripture alone is the only infallible source of doctrine, faith and practice. Or as article VI of the 39 articles states:
Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation.

Bray, G. (2009). The Faith We Confess: An Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles (p. 41). London: The Latimer Trust.

The Bible informs us there must be heresies (sects) amongst Christians who do walk by faith . . the unseen eternal.

But sola scriptura informs us those heresies that are damnable or judgable .They are those who deny Christ who gives new spiritual life as a free gift of His grace and mercy to those born again .


That is were the Queen of heaven . . . . the usurping authority of the fathers comes in. The Catholics fathers teach that this Queen entity they have named Mary alone received the "fullness of Christ grace" .All other humans a unknown remnant of grace and they must offer their own sufferings (anything) over and over and continue even after talking their last breath for another unknow remnant of time or severity of sufferings. The lying wonder mystic doctrine . . never to coming to the end of faith. No living hope. . a dead hope in their own corrupted flesh and blood hoping it could profit for something. ?????.

We must be careful who and how we hear what the Spirit says to the churches .Not what the churches sects says to the church, as doctrines of men

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Lets plug this back into its context and see what is going on here. (ESV)


17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

That is not saying what you claim is is saying. In fact Paul is condemning the behavior of the christians at Corinth for abusing the Lord's Supper. He's not saying to have different sects at all. In fact by doing so he would be violating the Lord's command for all to be one . Though I can see why you skipped this verse because it too teaches the deity of Christ.

Jn 17:11 (ESV)

11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

2 Pe 2:1–3 (ESV)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Again, a passage the condemns false teaching. Its worthy to note that their destruction is an active one, as in progress.

 

[Benadam]

I don't understand your question.

who do you mean by the author? I don't speak greek, so If I want to know greek word, I read from other that know greek. And the author only Translate as is
There are thosand people that know greek and english so to Lie is impossible.

Example there are millions people know Washington DC is in The USA, I am not going Lie and say Washington DC is in england or Taiwan. Too easy to prove I an liar

That what happen to the Greek word of antichrist. This person Translate what It is not Lie

Let me repeat what I say,

Base of literal translation from greek, I believe popes are antichrist.

I'm the author of the text. You are trying to change it into something I didn't mean.
If the author tells you what a certain word is used to mean that's what it means whether or not you agree.

 

[Benadam]

We are all blessed who trust in the name of the Lord. We are all Chosen members of a very special priesthood. All glory, honour, and praise be to God and Him alone.

Not the same. Will all be called Blessed for generations to come? A tradition of recognition is what Scriptures tell us about Jesus's mother. Generations will call her Blessed means a tradition of recognition.

 

[Benadam]

Yes generation Will call her blessed, It doesn't say generation Will say her queen of heaven.

You will have to take that up with the King of heaven that His mom ain't your queen.

 

[Athanasius377]

God cannot become a man. He has no beginning or end of Spirit life as eternal Spirit.

Php 2:5–11 (ESV)
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 1:15–23 (ESV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Tt 2:11–14 (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Changing the meaning of "sent one" not "venerable one". Like I sent my son to the grocery store with a written list is obvious.

Jesus is only referred to as apostle one time in the entire NT, and that's in Hebrews 3:1. Yet back up a few chapters and we read:
Heb 1:1-4 (ESV)
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Its almost like you are reading scripture upside-down and backwards if you miss all the references to Jesus being God.

 

[Jackson123]

I'm the author of the text. You are trying to change it into something I didn't mean.
If the author tells you what a certain word is used to mean that's what it means whether or not you agree.

Are you talking about what antichrist mean ?

Back to my sample.
Say Sam the author. Sam say Washington DC is in Taiwan.

Who going to believe Sam?

Smith say Washington DC is in America

I chose to believe smith

So do with what is original (Greek) the word antichrist mean.

It's not only against but also in replace of.
Base on that, I say pope are antichrist.


I say base on the real Greek mean.

Because you Catholic, you don't like people know that pope is antichrist, that why you do what ever you can to cover it up.
My brother that will be self harm. Lucifer don't love you. Antichrist work for lucifer.

 

[garee]

"Athanasius377, post: 4385578, member: 300588"]First, the tradition of the Elders as described in Mark 7 is later codified into the Mishnah and cam be found along with a commentary in the Talmud. That is not the same hazy oral traditions of men. Christians of course reject the Talmud as authoritative.

Christians reject the law of the fathers as oral tradition of men. They have different kind of father that lord it over the faith of the non venerable ones.

Saul before he joined the Nazarene sect also called the way carried out that law .Out of sight out of mind. he received letters of approval from the high Priest acting as a Pope to go on the murdering spree. ( Acts 22) They tried to prove sola scriptura. . all thing written in the law and the prophets was heresy. But walked away in unbelief . No faith coming from sola scriptura (Acts 24.)

Second, Sola Scriptura is the doctrine by which Scripture alone is the only infallible source of doctrine, faith and practice. Or as article VI of the 39 articles states:
Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation.


Bray, G. (2009). The Faith We Confess: An Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles (p. 41). London: The Latimer Trust.

That article made the faith of Christ's labor of love that works in the believer as it is written without effect, as a oral tradition of the fathers..

Lets plug this back into its context and see what is going on here. (ESV)

17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

That is not saying what you claim is is saying. In fact Paul is condemning the behavior of the christians at Corinth for abusing the Lord's Supper. He's not saying to have different sects at all. In fact by doing so he would be violating the Lord's command for all to be one . Though I can see why you skipped this verse because it too teaches the deity of Christ.

It is saying things that go into ones mouth comes out as useless draught. If it cannot defile then it cannot build faith.

Mark 7:18-20 King James Version (KJV)And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

Jn 17:11 (ESV)

11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

2 Pe 2:1–3 (ESV)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Again, a passage the condemns false teaching. Its worthy to note that their destruction is an active one, as in progress.

Yes active, living faith coming from Christ. .

Why is this Mary entity alone accredited to the fulness of Christ grace while every other creature receives a unknow remnant. never coming to the end of faith. The wondering, wondering doctrine of the fathers

Born again Christians receive the fulness from the beginning . The old testament saints by the fullness of grace looked ahead to the demonstration by the same spirit of faith we look back

1 Peter 1:9-11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The Spirit of Christ's grace which was in them. Not the spirit of the fathers or of a Mary entity called the "queen of heaven" .

 

[Laish]

You do realize the Bible is vastly interpreted. How do you not interpret the Bible for yourself? Do you stone witches as the Bible tells you to? Do you really think that's a good idea? After all, there's no such thing as interpretation and only the Bible. This is why the Pope exists to make the interpretation for a modern world. No matter how you try to cut, people interpret the Bible, they don't actually practice things like that.

Ok question you said that the Catholic Church interprets the scriptures, so why haven’t they done so ? With nearly 2000 years you would think the had time to do . The Catholic Church has not dogmatically interpreted even 1% of the holy scriptures. That info comes from the Catholic encyclopedia and the catechism of the Catholic Church , it’s their info .
You noted that the Pope interprets scripture so when Francis makes a comment about homosexuality he says “ who am I to judge” ? No answer no guidance only moral relativism .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Jackson123]

You noted that the Pope interprets scripture so when Francis makes a comment about homosexuality he says “ who am I to judge” ? No answer no guidance only moral relativism .

Did pope believe homosexual as a sin or not?

 

[garee]

Php 2:5–11 (ESV)
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 1:15–23 (ESV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Tt 2:11–14 (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


Jesus is only referred to as apostle one time in the entire NT, and that's in Hebrews 3:1. Yet back up a few chapters and we read:
Heb 1:1-4 (ESV)
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Its almost like you are reading scripture upside-down and backwards if you miss all the references to Jesus being God.

.
How many time does he have to called an apostle in order to make him one?

Image are as likeness, the ability to love by the power of the gospel Not mirror image making the apostles a legion of gods in the likeness of man . Blasphemy, turning the inspiration of God upside down as if it was inspired earthly of the god of this world. Therefore taking away the understanding of faith

Acts 14: 7-12 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

You could say in the likeness what some call patron saints .(3500 and rising)

 

[Laish]

Did pope believe homosexual as a sin or not?

That’s the problem? As the supposed infallible head of the Catholic Church his answer left folks scratching their heads . Francis’s non answer answer only caused confusion . No interpretation just a touchy-feely response to make someone feel good .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Jackson123]

That’s the problem? As the supposed infallible head of the Catholic Church his answer left folks scratching their heads . Francis’s non answer answer only caused confusion . No interpretation just a touchy-feely response to make someone feel good .
Blessings
Bill

Base on the Bible LGBT is sin, but pope don't want to say it.

Jesus say preach the gospel to all nation,

What is preach the gospel mean

Mean say what is the gospel teach about salvation, about LGBT, about anything, some early Christian preach it and pepople not only hate him(Stephen) but kill him

Pope afraid to preach the gospel about LGBT, afraid to be hate

Hmm, Stephen do more than Peter successor

 

[Athanasius377]

.
How many time does he have to called an apostle in order to make him one?

Image are as likeness, the ability to love by the power of the gospel Not mirror image making the apostles a legion of gods in the likeness of man . Blasphemy, turning the inspiration of God upside down as if it was inspired earthly of the god of this world. Therefore taking away the understanding of faith

Acts 14: 7-12 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

You could say in the likeness what some call patron saints .(3500 and rising)

Jesus is called an apostle only one time, while in the middle of an argument in the middle of a sermon. Where I would add only two chapters before He is clearly and in no uncertain terms described as God.

Heb 1:14 ESV
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

The Greek in verse 3 is: ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ

Its the same word from which we get the word character in english.

Louw-Nida observes:

58.62 χαρακτήρ, ῆρος m: a representation as an exact reproduction of a particular form or structure—‘exact representation.’ ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ ‘who is the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his being’ He 1:3.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, pp. 591–592). New York: United Bible Societies.


Bable on all you want, but the NT clearly teaches that Jesus is God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, Most of the arguments you have brought have blown up in your face because the text doesn't allow for your interpretation.

 

[Benadam]

Base on the Bible LGBT is sin, but pope don't want to say it.

Jesus say preach the gospel to all nation,

What is preach the gospel mean

Mean say what is the gospel teach about salvation, about LGBT, about anything, some early Christian preach it and pepople not only hate him(Stephen) but kill him

Pope afraid to preach the gospel about LGBT, afraid to be hate

Hmm, Stephen do more than Peter successor

Base on the Bible LGBT is sin, but pope don't want to say it.

Jesus say preach the gospel to all nation,

What is preach the gospel mean

Mean say what is the gospel teach about salvation, about LGBT, about anything, some early Christian preach it and pepople not only hate him(Stephen) but kill him

Pope afraid to preach the gospel about LGBT, afraid to be hate

Hmm, Stephen do more than Peter successor

What does the Popes opinion got to do with what the Catholic Church teaches?

 

[Jackson123]

What does the Popes opinion got to do with what the Catholic Church teaches?

Pope is the leader of Catholic Church isn't he?
His teaching represent catholic teaching

Pope is infallible in dogma and moral.

 

[Laish]

What does the Popes opinion got to do with what the Catholic Church teaches?

Ok the Roman Catholic Church has given the Pope the title Of Vicar of Christ.
Catholics state that it means that the Pope is the head of the entire Christian Church here on earth . That Christ Jesus Himself gives the Pope His authority and power to govern the Church . So yea the popes opinion has some weight.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Benadam]

Ok the Roman Catholic Church has given the Pope the title Of Vicar of Christ.
Catholics state that it means that the Pope is the head of the entire Christian Church here on earth . That Christ Jesus Himself gives the Pope His authority and power to govern the Church . So yea the popes opinion has some weight.
Blessings
Bill

Still, unless he teaches ex cathedra it doesn't carry that kind of weight. I don't think it's happened very often if at all during my lifetime.
His political opinion, theological opinion, stuff like that is just opinion
Grace and Peace

 

[Jackson123]

Still, unless he teaches ex cathedra it doesn't carry that kind of weight.

According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra papal teaching are as follows:

the Roman Pontiff (the Pope alone or with the College of Bishops)
speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, (in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,) he defines a doctrine
concerning faith or morals
to be held by the whole Church.[13]
The terminology of a definitive decree usually makes clear that this last condition is fulfilled, as through a formula such as "By the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by Our own authority, We declare, pronounce and define the doctrine . . . to be revealed by God and as such to be firmly and immutably held by all the faithful," or through an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church.[14]

So what you believe, who infallible. Pope as Peter successor infallible or the catholic church infallible?

 

[Benadam]

Pope is the leader of Catholic Church isn't he?
His teaching represent catholic teaching

Pope is infallible in dogma and moral.

Still, unless he teaches ex cathedra it doesn't carry that kind of weight. I don't think it's happened very often if at all during my lifetime.
His political opinion, theological opinion, stuff like that is just opinion
Grace and Peace

This is copied from one of my other posts.