Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Let it go already. We have all the facts Jesus wanted to give. He was POOR, was put down by the gate of the rich man. Period.

And quit missing the whole point of the account; there are no second chances for those who have died.

First of all, your arrogance is quite off-putting as you seem to have the audacity to tell me when to stop talking.

Where and when have I said that? I said to "let it go", meaning, of course, your attempted excuses for trying to make an account of the afterlife isn't working.

You don't tell me when I am ready to let it go.

I give suggestions for a lot of things. But, of course, you have the freedom to hang on to anything you want.

What you have the right to do is keep silent and hold your peace, but don't try to control me.

Control?? That would be quite a feat! Do you really think I have that kind of power over anyone else?

Let me remind you Mr. FreeGrace2 that this is a Bible discussion forum. If you can't answer my questions then don't bother responding with your snide comments.

I've answered ALL your questions. What have I missed? And, please, point out the snide remarks you think I have made.

Telling someone to let go isn't a snide comment. It is a suggestion.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Isaiah 25:6
God’s Banquet for His Servants
The Lord All-Powerful will give a feast for all the people on this mountain. At the feast, there will be the best foods and wines. The meat will be good and tender, the wine pure and clear.

I think it may be the same mountain that piles on the head of those in the Abyss.
Hebrew translation of 2Pe2:4
For if Elohim did not spare the messengers who sinned, but cast them down to the roots of the mountains and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be kept for judgment,

Wonderfully efficient and ironic! But I don't think they will be part of the conversation!

Best brush up on your dinner conversation!

 

[Runningman]

Good Question: There may be times when it is not contagious --- I am only guessing, not a doctor.

"
Outbreaks have affected people on every continent. But leprosy, also known as Hanson's disease, isn't that contagious. You can catch it only if you come into close and repeated contact with nose and mouth droplets from someone with untreated leprosy.Sep 28, 2020
Leprosy Symptoms, Treatments, History, and Causes - WebMD
"

Leprosy is highly contagious at all times. So there isn't a reason to see Lazarus as an untouchable leper in my honest opinion. From my perspective Lazarus had some sort of sore on his skin, but I don't see evidence he was not able-bodied. That means someone could have helped him start a basket-weaving business or do something with his hands. I don't see evidence he utilized he did anything other than beg.

 

[1ofthem]

Leprosy is highly contagious at all times. So there isn't a reason to see Lazarus as an untouchable leper in my honest opinion. From my perspective Lazarus had some sort of sore on his skin, but I don't see evidence he was not able-bodied. That means someone could have helped him start a basket-weaving business or do something with his hands. I don't see evidence he utilized he did anything other than beg.

Maybe he didn't have hands while he was alive on the earth? He could have had cancer or some other disease and been too weak and sick to work? Or maybe he just couldn't find a job? We don't know because scripture doesn't say.

So to even try to figure it out would be nothing but guessing and speculation. All we know for sure is that apparently he was saved because he was in Abraham's bosom. He wasn't in hell like the rich man so seems he had done something right because he didn't end up in hell, anyhow.

 

[JAPOV]

The claim that Jesus' use of the proper name "Lazarus" is proof the passage is literal will go down in history as one of the most blatant examples of subjective hermeneutical reasoning in all the Bible - like Sotomayor running off about how dangerous Omnicron is to kids when there's NO EVIDENCE to support anything she said.

The reason Jesus said "Lazarus" is because He knew not long after He'd be raising the literal Lazarus from the dead, but the Jews not only insisted on rejecting what He said to them "though one rose from the dead", they actually went away to take counsel how they might destroy both Jesus and Lazarus.

When I see another argument on this forum I've learned not to read the responses lol; I just focus on the original poster's comments.

This is an interesting theory, can you back it up with scripture?

 

[JAPOV]

No, he was in a fish belly.
Well, technically, His 3 days/nights in "the grave" ("Sheol/Hades") was not much more than 24 hours via Inclusive Reckoning.
Only in parable, but both impossible and Biblically contradicting in real life.
Where's does it say Jesus took anyone out of "Abraham's Bosom" or that He took "all" the saints that had ever gone to the grave to heaven? No where.
"They" who? Yes, there are some who are in heaven, but not "all".
Had this passage been a literal story, there would be numerous contradictions with the other passages of Jesus, Solomon, David, Peter, Job, and others, as well as with common sense reality, like:

1. the dead in possession of knowledge, wisdom, emotions, memory, ability to break silence and devise plans
2. the dead in possession of their resurrection bodies before they are to receive them in the last day resurrection
3. a man totally on fire able to observe and interact with others as easily as a slightly annoyed Karen in Macy's
4. Abraham's bosom being the size of the moon to accommodate all the dead that lived the past 4,000 years
5. the dead able to return to and interact with those in the land of the living

Christians, the only way to avoid creating all these Scriptural contradictions which the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd has created for themselves is to accept that this passage in Luke 16 is merely a parable, and then attempt to discern what is the interpretation....OR JUST WATCH THE VIDEO AND SAVE A LOT OF TIME.

Kinda' lost me here...
Lucifer hasn't been judged yet. So, I believe Hades is currently empty.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Definition of doublespeak
Merriam webster : language used to deceive usually through concealment or misrepresentation of truth also : gobbledygook
Wiktionary: Any language deliberately constructed to disguise or distort its actual meaning, often by employing euphemism or ambiguity. Typically used by governments or large institutions.
WordNet 3.0 noun any language that pretends to communicate but actually does not

death is not death
mortal is immortal
perishable is imperishable
I can see the invisible...
One means many
Hell can go to hell...And then it can go again... and again...
Blessed are the dead— those who die in the Lord. Where's the rapture train?
God can't die, but he died for our sins.

Jesus is eldest brother not big brother.

 

[JAPOV]

Yeah' I'm bored now lol, I'm not reading the rest of this... I know a parable when I see one.

I also understand that no man has seen and can conceive of what God has in store for us. So, perhaps defining Hell may help?

I'm not so sure we should take our resurrected bodies burning for eternity literally. That just seems a little harsh! However, being resurrected just to briefly meet God and face the truth of your existence that you denied... THEN, being separated from the truth of God's love would certainly cause a man to "burn with desire". To live for eternity with the stupid and arrogant mistake you made can certainly be described as Hell...

Just a thought. Eternity begging for a drop of living water... Hmmmm

 

[Runningman]

Maybe he didn't have hands while he was alive on the earth? He could have had cancer or some other disease and been too weak and sick to work? Or maybe he just couldn't find a job? We don't know because scripture doesn't say.

So to even try to figure it out would be nothing but guessing and speculation. All we know for sure is that apparently he was saved because he was in Abraham's bosom. He wasn't in hell like the rich man so seems he had done something right because he didn't end up in hell, anyhow.

For sure. I don’t know how closely you’ve been following this thread, but I made a pretty good case, in my opinion, for why this isn’t a literal story.

Probably the most compelling bit of information about the whole situation is that Abraham said that someone rising from the dead isn’t convincing enough to sway anyone.

Now we have to see Abraham wasn’t being literal because Jesus rising from the dead is convincing, right?

Either Abraham was wrong (I’ll give father Abraham the benefit of the doubt that he wasn’t being literal) or this story is a kind of foreshadowing, a parable, where many people, such as the scribes and Pharisees, wouldn’t believe when someone rose from the dead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Probably the most compelling bit of information about the whole situation is that Abraham said that someone rising from the dead isn’t convincing enough to sway anyone.

Now we have to see Abraham wasn’t being literal because Jesus rising from the dead is convincing, right?

Nope, not everyone. Some, yes, but many, no. So your argument doesn't hold water.

The point of Jesus' account is that there are no second chances, and souls are conscious in the afterlife.

Either Abraham was wrong (I’ll give father Abraham the benefit of the doubt that he wasn’t being literal) or this story is a kind of foreshadowing, a parable, where many people, such as the scribes and Pharisees, wouldn’t believe when someone rose from the dead.

Those who believe in soul sleep will have to provide a sensible explanation of WHY Jesus would create a scenario that isn't even possible for the idea of soul sleep.

You haven't done that.

 

[Runningman]

Nope, not everyone. Some, yes, but many, no. So your argument doesn't hold water.

The point of Jesus' account is that there are no second chances, and souls are conscious in the afterlife.


Those who believe in soul sleep will have to provide a sensible explanation of WHY Jesus would create a scenario that isn't even possible for the idea of soul sleep.

You haven't done that.

A real Lazarus did rise from the dead. This parable is just figurative of something that did happen. All of the elements of the story don’t necessarily need to be true in order for it to illustrate the spiritual lessons being taught.

The Bible obviously uses literary devices, such as hyperbole, to just exaggerate. For example, Jesus isn’t literally a “thief in the night” because you can’t steal what you own and Jesus isn’t a thief.

You really need to find yourself. I love your post-trib rapture material but everything else you say is just very poor theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A real Lazarus did rise from the dead.

When he came stumbling out of the cave, was he in a glorified body?

This parable is just figurative of something that did happen.

Is this a typo?? The account is definitely of something that did happen. It is about the after life, showing where all souls went after death in the OT, and that they wre not napping.

All of the elements of the story don’t necessarily need to be true in order for it to illustrate the spiritual lessons being taught.

How can you NOT understand that to tell a parable or story that CANNOT be true leaves the audience to doubt everything about the story. They'd just be thinking, "none of this can be true".

And you haven't explained why Jesus would tell a fantastic fib, or something that is totally saturated in unreality. That is NOT how Jesus communicated with people.

The Bible obviously uses literary devices, such as hyperbole, to just exaggerate.

Sure. So, point out what you think is "hyperbole" in Jesus' account of a rich man and a poor man. I see a very realistic account.

For example, Jesus isn’t literally a “thief in the night” because you can’t steal what you own and Jesus isn’t a thief.

Obviously a figurative phrase. Not even close to Jesus' account.

It is the phrase "sleep" that is used figuratively for physical death that you refuse to accept.

Where does your idea of the soul go to after physical death? Stay with the rotting body, or where does it go?

You really need to find yourself.

Oh, I have.

I love your post-trib rapture material but everything else you say is just very poor theology.

How interesting! My views about the post-trib resurrection was determined in the exact same way as everything else I understand from Scripture. Like the Bereans studied Scripture.

Our differences regarding "soul sleep" are because you refuse to accept what is obvious: Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man, and what Paul said in 2 Cor 5:6,8
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Very clearly here, a believer is either:
1. at home in the body, or
2 at home with the Lord

Those who are at home in the body are "away from the Lord".
Those who are at home with the Lord are "away from the body".

John wrote about souls under the altar in heaven who were shouting, etc.

All of which shows that souls don't sleep. They remain conscious.

 

[Runningman]

When he came stumbling out of the cave, was he in a glorified body?


Is this a typo?? The account is definitely of something that did happen. It is about the after life, showing where all souls went after death in the OT, and that they wre not napping.


How can you NOT understand that to tell a parable or story that CANNOT be true leaves the audience to doubt everything about the story. They'd just be thinking, "none of this can be true".

And you haven't explained why Jesus would tell a fantastic fib, or something that is totally saturated in unreality. That is NOT how Jesus communicated with people.


Sure. So, point out what you think is "hyperbole" in Jesus' account of a rich man and a poor man. I see a very realistic account.


Obviously a figurative phrase. Not even close to Jesus' account.

It is the phrase "sleep" that is used figuratively for physical death that you refuse to accept.

Where does your idea of the soul go to after physical death? Stay with the rotting body, or where does it go?


Oh, I have.


How interesting! My views about the post-trib resurrection was determined in the exact same way as everything else I understand from Scripture. Like the Bereans studied Scripture.

Our differences regarding "soul sleep" are because you refuse to accept what is obvious: Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man, and what Paul said in 2 Cor 5:6,8
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Very clearly here, a believer is either:
1. at home in the body, or
2 at home with the Lord

Those who are at home in the body are "away from the Lord".
Those who are at home with the Lord are "away from the body".

John wrote about souls under the altar in heaven who were shouting, etc.

All of which shows that souls don't sleep. They remain conscious.

You don’t seem to know how Jesus talked to be honest. Jesus spoke to other who weren’t His disciples in parables. Fact. Go look at the context again, the people He was speaking to were not His disciples. Jesus didn’t reveal plain spiritual truths to other people, but rather He spoke in parables. This is a non-negotiable fact about the way Jesus taught other people.

Matthew 13:10-11
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given

Matthew 13:35
35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

This should be fun watching you twist and contort the scriptures to make Jesus teach to others who were not His disciples plain language spiritual subjects.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
When he came stumbling out of the cave, was he in a glorified body?

Is this a typo?? The account is definitely of something that did happen. It is about the after life, showing where all souls went after death in the OT, and that they wre not napping.

You don’t seem to know how Jesus talked to be honest.

Well, that isn't an honest statement. Why do you talk about being honest when you aren't?

Jesus spoke to other who weren’t His disciples in parables.
Fact. Go look at the context again, the people He was speaking to were not His disciples. Jesus didn’t reveal plain spiritual truths to other people, but rather He spoke in parables. This is a non-negotiable fact about the way Jesus taught other people.

What is the spiritual truth in Jesus' account? Teaching about no second chances isn't a "spiritual truth". It's a plain simple fact that when a person dies, there are no more opportunities.

In Luke 16, the parable ends in v.15. The story of Lazarus begins at v.19.

This should be fun watching you twist and contort the scriptures to make Jesus teach to others who were not His disciples plain language spiritual subjects.

You need to prove that the account was "spiritual truths", when it was clearly an account of the afterlife.

But, really, you've already been refuted by many passages that prove that souls aren't napping.

I asked you where souls sleep after physical death and you haven't answered. Do you know, from Scripture, or do you have to guess?

Here is another question for you.

In 1 Thess 4, consider this question:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

v.14 - Who does Jesus "bring with" Him. They are described as having "fallen asleep". So, does that mean all the dead believers have been sleeping in heaven?

v.15 - the believers who are still alive when He comes will not precede those who have fallen asleep. So again, they came WITH Jesus, so that means they have been sleeping in heaven.

v.16 - if the sleeping souls come WITH Jesus from heaven, please explain how they "will rise first". They just came DOWN from heaven, so explain their rising.

Keep in mind John SAW souls under an altar in heaven shouting. How is that sleeping?

Now, it should be fun watching you explain all this.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
When he came stumbling out of the cave, was he in a glorified body?

Is this a typo?? The account is definitely of something that did happen. It is about the after life, showing where all souls went after death in the OT, and that they wre not napping.

Well, that isn't an honest statement. Why do you talk about being honest when you aren't?


What is the spiritual truth in Jesus' account? Teaching about no second chances isn't a "spiritual truth". It's a plain simple fact that when a person dies, there are no more opportunities.

In Luke 16, the parable ends in v.15. The story of Lazarus begins at v.19.


You need to prove that the account was "spiritual truths", when it was clearly an account of the afterlife.

But, really, you've already been refuted by many passages that prove that souls aren't napping.

I asked you where souls sleep after physical death and you haven't answered. Do you know, from Scripture, or do you have to guess?

Here is another question for you.

In 1 Thess 4, consider this question:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

v.14 - Who does Jesus "bring with" Him. They are described as having "fallen asleep". So, does that mean all the dead believers have been sleeping in heaven?

v.15 - the believers who are still alive when He comes will not precede those who have fallen asleep. So again, they came WITH Jesus, so that means they have been sleeping in heaven.

v.16 - if the sleeping souls come WITH Jesus from heaven, please explain how they "will rise first". They just came DOWN from heaven, so explain their rising.

Keep in mind John SAW souls under an altar in heaven shouting. How is that sleeping?

Now, it should be fun watching you explain all this.

I don’t believe in the traditional doctrine of soul sleep which states that immediately upon death the souls of the righteous go to God and fall asleep. Nor did I ever say that. Why should I have to defend a doctrine that you’re assigning to me?

You just quoted a verse that says God brings with Him those who are asleep. Now you have to try really hard to make those words say they’re awake. That means that souls can sleep sometimes, but not all the time.

Did you notice in Revelation 6:11 they are told to take a rest?

Revelation 6:11
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Did you notice the word rest there? Ever needed rest? What did you do, sleep? Yes. There you go.

You may also notice Matthew 26:45

45Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

The word rest in Matthew 26:45 is the same word for rest in Revelation 6:11 and Jesus said for them to sleep.

Why do you require that souls can't rest or sleep like Revelation 6:11 and 1 Thess. 4:14 say they do?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don’t believe in the traditional doctrine of soul sleep which states that immediately upon death the souls of the righteous go to God and fall asleep. Nor did I ever say that. Why should I have to defend a doctrine that you’re assigning to me?

Then please make yourself clear. What do you believe?

You just quoted a verse that says God brings with Him those who are asleep.

No, it says "have fallen asleep". NOT ARE asleep. Again, you just don't want to accept figures of speech for physical death.

Now you have to try really hard to make those words say they’re awake. That means that souls can sleep sometimes, but not all the time.

I don't have to try to do anything. The souls of dead believers are with Jesus in Heaven. 1 Cor 5:6,8. No sweat.

What verse shows that souls "can sleep sometimes, but not all the time"? You're just reaching again.

Did you notice in Revelation 6:11 they are told to take a rest?

Revelation 6:11
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Why do you try to equate resting with sleeping. They are not the same thing.

You may also notice Matthew 26:45

45Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Literal sleep here.

The word rest in Matthew 26:45 is the same word for rest in Revelation 6:11 and Jesus said for them to sleep.

So what they are the "same word". A word can be taken figuratively or literally. So your point is moot.

Why do you require that souls can't rest or sleep like Revelation 6:11 and 1 Thess. 4:14 say they do?

You just don't want to accept the use of "sleep" to mean physical death.

So, again, where do these "sleeping souls" go after death? You didn't answer the question.

 

[Runningman]

So what they are the "same word". A word can be taken figuratively or literally. So your point is moot.

This is something along the lines I expected you to say. By cherry-picking what you decide is literal or figurative you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say even after I just showed you that souls can sleep.

God literally told the souls under the altar to take a rest in Rev. 6:11 and in Matt. 26:45 Jesus literally said that sleeping is resting. Those are just the facts, but reject them if you will. Often people react defensively like you are when they can’t accept something. In time you might realize what I am trying to show you is right. Your extra mile is over. Good luck.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So what they are the "same word". A word can be taken figuratively or literally. So your point is moot.

This is something along the lines I expected you to say.

This is the truth.

You should expect that I always state the truth.

By cherry-picking what you decide is literal or figurative you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say even after I just showed you that souls can sleep.

All you showed were verses describing people who had died.

God literally told the souls under the altar to take a rest in Rev. 6:11

Two things here. First, you take me to task for deciding when a word is to be taken figuratively or literally, and here you are, claiming that God said something LITERALLY. Pot - kettle = black.

Second, what God didn't say was take a nap. Or go to sleep. That would give you some cred.

and in Matt. 26:45 Jesus literally said that sleeping is resting.

No, it doesn't say "literally" that sleeping is resting.

"Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners."

It is very easy to understand Jesus as indicating that of the 3, there was BOTH sleeping and resting.

Those are just the facts, but reject them if you will.

I don't reject facts. And the FACT is that "sleep" is a reference to physical death.

Often people react defensively like you are when they can’t accept something.

Defensively? I've given straight facts. I've been on the offensive. Your take on Jesus' account of the rich and poor man really showed a lot of defensiveness in trying to defend your view.

In time you might realize what I am trying to show you is right. Your extra mile is over. Good luck.

Go ahead and reject the fact that sleep is used to describe people who have died.

And I've already given you the verses/passages that prove that souls are alive in heaven. And in Hades. And they speak and feel.

To ascribe a parable of Jesus that is totally unrealistic is beyond the pale.

From this website:
https://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_study/118-5-rich-man-lazarus.htm

Luke 16:19 to 31 is another scripture that shows very plainly that the souls or spirits of people are alive after someone dies physically. They can talk, think, remember, and feel pain as it says, but if we take this scripture literally then it destroys the doctrine of 'soul-sleep'. For this reason there are many who would like to explain this scripture away as a parable, because then it enables them to ignore the literal interpretation. This is wrong, and if Jesus believed the doctrine of soul-sleep he would never have told a parable like this which contradicts it very plainly. This bible study gives plenty of scriptural proof that the scripture about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is not a parable.

 

[TheLearner]

Leprosy is highly contagious at all times. So there isn't a reason to see Lazarus as an untouchable leper in my honest opinion. From my perspective Lazarus had some sort of sore on his skin, but I don't see evidence he was not able-bodied. That means someone could have helped him start a basket-weaving business or do something with his hands. I don't see evidence he utilized he did anything other than beg.

I was quoting from a reliable medical site.

 

[TheLearner]

Leprosy is highly contagious at all times. So there isn't a reason to see Lazarus as an untouchable leper in my honest opinion. From my perspective Lazarus had some sort of sore on his skin, but I don't see evidence he was not able-bodied. That means someone could have helped him start a basket-weaving business or do something with his hands. I don't see evidence he utilized he did anything other than beg.

would you hire someone with Leprosy ???