Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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friend, soul sleep is not traditional doctrine. Sleep only describes the appearce of the dead body.
Isaiah 14:9-11
Lexham English Bible
9 Sheol below is getting excited over you,
to meet you when you come;
it arouses the dead spirits for you,
all of the leaders of the earth.
It raises all of the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 All of them will respond and say to you,
‘You yourself also were made weak like us!
You have become the same as us!’
11 Your pride is brought down to Sheol,
and the sound of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you like a bed,
and your covering is worms.
1 Thess. 4:14 isn't talking about dead bodies being brought with Jesus though. This is talking about souls. Souls aren't referred to as sleeping, they are referred to as the "dead in Christ."
1 Thessalonians 4:14
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
If the dead bodies are the objects being referred to as sleeping, then by the time they are resurrected they aren't sleeping anymore. So God is bringing sleeping souls with Jesus and bringing back fully awake resurrected people.
In my opinion this is a common misunderstanding. Once you understand that the rest of the surrounding passage and context makes much more sense.
I'm not sure why equating Jesus to Michael would be any problem at all, seeing that it changes nothing. "Michael" means "ruler of the angels" which Jesus is, seeing that He created them and rules over them. He's still the same fully divine and from everlasting to everlasting God, the Second Person in the Godhead, Who merely took the name "Michael" when He manifested Himself as an angel before His incarnation, and then took the name "Jesus" when He manifested Himself as a human at His incarnation.
The name Michael according to
https://www.learnreligions.com/meet-archangel-michael-leader-of-angels-124715
Meaning Who Is Like God?, What Is God Like?
It is a question asking "who can be called Elohim?" Are you faithful? Are you part of the Heavenly Host?
Immanuel is a masculine personal name in Hebrew meaning "God with us," or "God is with us."
https://www.learnreligions.com/what-does-immanuel-mean-700741
Jesus is the Perfect Image of God. The name of Jesus decrees that God is with us, Michael asks "are you loyal?" There is a stark constrast. No correlation.
I am a subordinationist. There is only One God and He is YHWH. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Is Jesus God? Jesus as God is as Scriptural as the hell doctrine.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus' "divinity" was that He was Begotten before the beginning of time space. What happens outside of time space is invisible and causality cannot be inferred.
He was with God. Two distinct persons.
Trinitarian scholars translate "the Word was God" as "the Word was Divine" to avoid modalism. I see it plainly as "the Word was Elohim". Elohim the son of God, not Elohin the holy man, not Elohim the false god.
Why Michael is not Jesus? It is the sesame street game, one of these things don't belong together.
Consider Book of Revelation. 3 beasties - dragon, beast and the false prophet. Pertaining to the beast, they ask Who is like the beast? A question similar to that of Michael but through as satanic mirror. Note they also worship the dragon, like a deity.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Finally, beastie with horns of the lamb.
The satanic mirror of God, Michael (Israel), and Jesus is the dragon, beast and false prophet respectively. Michael is is tied to Israel which why the beast mocked his name. He is the Guardian Angel of Israel, not Transcendent Messiah.
The answer to "Who is like God?" is found only in one Person: the pre-incarnate Jesus, Who formerly appeared to His creation as an Angel and took the name "Michael", and in these last days has appeared to His creation as the Son of Man and has taken the name "Jesus".
J
JAPOV
Guest
This is actually an interesting subject... If Jesus is the God of creation who was always there from the beginning (John 1), then doesn't that mean that Jesus is the God/Angel that has always revealed Himself to man? With the exception of Moses of course...
Which seems more likely:When I see another argument on this forum I've learned not to read the responses lol; I just focus on the original poster's comments.
This is an interesting theory, can you back it up with scripture?
1. Jesus' unique use of a proper name ("Lazarus") proves the passage is literal, despite the glaring textual contradictions which erupt by making the passage literal.
2. Jesus' unique use of a proper name ("Lazarus") was to show that what He claimed in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus -- that those who refuse to believe the Word of God will remain in unbelief despite such a powerful witness as one rising from the dead at that same Word -- by calling forth the real "Lazarus" from the dead, and having the Jews go away in unbelief to plot His and Lazarus' murder.
I think the answer is obvious to those who are interested in Scriptural consistency more than preconceived pagan notions about consciousness in death, when Scripture is clear "the dead know not anything".
PRECISELY!!!This is actually an interesting subject... If Jesus is the God of creation who was always there from the beginning (John 1), then doesn't that mean that Jesus is the God/Angel that has always revealed Himself to man? With the exception of Moses of course...
It was JESUS Who appeared to Moses in the burning bush...it was JESUS Who appeared to Manasseh and informed him that Samson would arrive...it was JESUS Who said John the Baptist would "prepare the way before ME" in the book of Malachi...it was JESUS Who led the Israelites as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night...it was JESUS Who appeared to Joshua as Commander of the Armies of the Lord...it was JESUS who said in the OT Psalms 78, "I will open MY mouth in parable" as confirmed by Matthew 13:34-35 KJV, etc.
Isn't it such a comfort that God, like a mother who toils tirelessly at the bedside of her dying child, desires to be CLOSE AND INTIMATE with His wayward children?
That Michael is Jesus was taught as a MAINSTREAM doctrine and understood to be truth by many great scholarly minds of Protestantism like Spurgeon, Henry, Clarke, Wesley, etc., etc., etc, ----- until the Jehovah's Witnesses began TWISTING this doctrine to "prove" that Jesus was merely an angelic created being inferior to God who "became" God but remains inferior to God - which is a direct attack on the divinity of Jesus as God "from everlasting to everlasting". JW founder Charles Taze Russell was a 33 degree Freemason, and if you study it all out, the Freemasons are controlled by the Jesuit Order of the Papacy, the Antichrist of Bible prophecy. It can be shown the Papacy is nothing more than ancient satanic Babylonian Sun Worship perfected, and every occult system in the world operates with undying hatred against the divinity of Jesus as our Savior and Lord.
J
JAPOV
Guest
I believe there's a difference between "the dead" and those who sleep in christ...
2 Corinthians 5-
6So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
"Hades" means "place of the dead" or "underworld" or "grave". While we all agree it's where we go when we die, what we believe about the state of the dead determines what what we believe is happening there in "Hades".
If we let Genesis 2:7 KJV be our guide, we see that the "Living Soul" comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, much like when we pass Electricity through a Bulb, Light is produced:
Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
Bulb + Electricity = Light
Just as Light does not go on shining when the Electricity is removed from the Bulb, so the Living Soul does not continue to exist when the Breath of Life removes from the Body and returns to God as It was when It previously issued forth from God and traveled to the Body in order to make it become a Living Soul.
J
JAPOV
Guest
So, the "glimpse" of God that Moses was allowed must have been triune God in His full glory...
This passage in 2 Corinthians 5 is important, however there is an element that is often passed over by many: the part about "naked" and "unclothed".I believe there's a difference between "the dead" and those who sleep in christ...
2 Corinthians 5-
6So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
"Naked" and "unclothed" cannot here be referring to a "lost spiritual condition" (where people are "naked and unclothed" in shame before God in Judgement)...because if it did, Paul would be saying, "Hey guys, we groan with desire to escape the burdens of this life, but we don't want that escape to come in the form of being lost sinners...." --- such a statement would make no sense at all...therefore, the nakedness and unclothed state Paul is referring to MUST refer to being "naked and unclothed without a body in the grave sleeping and awaiting the resurrection".
Paul is saying, "we groan with desire to escape the burdens of this life, but we don't want that relief to come in the form of resting in the grave naked without a body awaiting the resurrection, but we want to SKIP THAT PART and go right to heaven and be with Jesus"...much like when I climb into my truck to go home for the day, I want to be "absent from the phone company parking lot and present in my hot tub" but I know full well I still have to fight rush hour traffic...in the same way, Paul knew that appearing before Jesus would not happen at death, but at the "judgment seat of Christ" in the last day when He comes in the clouds and we rise to Him in the air all at the same time.
Paul saying his desire is to skip the intermediate state of lying in the grave awaiting the Second Coming is not grounds for building a doctrine -- we all would prefer to skip the unsavory parts about this life and be with Jesus, but we know God's way is the best way
J
JAPOV
Guest
Hmmm.... I'm not so sure the "souls" of believers ever sleep... Their bodies, yes... but not their souls. Remember, there are 2 deaths. Believers only suffer 1. And the raptured endtime believers won't suffer at all"Hades" means "place of the dead" or "underworld" or "grave". While we all agree it's where we go when we die, what we believe about the state of the dead determines what what we believe is happening there in "Hades".
If we let Genesis 2:7 KJV be our guide, we see that the "Living Soul" comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, much like when we pass Electricity through a Bulb, Light is produced:
Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
Bulb + Electricity = Light
Just as Light does not go on shining when the Electricity is removed from the Bulb, so the Living Soul does not continue to exist when the Breath of Life removes from the Body and returns to God as It was when It previously issued forth from God and traveled to the Body in order to make it become a Living Soul.
Well, veiled glory to an extent...he wasn't allowed to see the face of God, for such glory would be like us walking into a radioactive vault.
BTW, regarding the argument by JWs that "since Jesus is Michael the Archangel that means Jesus had to be created at some point and did not exist in the beginning with Jehovah Father" (which argument eventually caused the Christian world to turn their back on the once popular teaching that Jesus is Michael) --- it is worth noting the powerful answers to the thinking of JWs on this issue:
If Jesus is the "Word of God", to say that there was a time that Jesus didn't exist is to say there was a time when God couldn't speak.
If Jesus is the "Wisdom of God", to say that there was a time that Jesus didn't exist is to say there was a time when God couldn't think.
If Jesus is the "Power of God", to say that there was a time that Jesus didn't exist is to say there was a time when God was an invalid.
No, John is clear that "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was (the JW NWT illegitimately inserts the letter "a" here) God...the Same was in the beginning with God...all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made".
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Absent from the body….having no body, but yet present with the Lord…the soul, who we actually are. Right now I am clothed with a corrupt body. One day, my body will be changed to the glory of the Lord’s resurrected body, an immortal body, which will clothe my eternal soul.
Philippians 1
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Paul’s soul would depart from the flesh and be with Christ. That’s better for him than remaining in the flesh.