Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[LactoseIntolerant]

Zechariah 9:14 KJV shows that the Lord will blow the last trumpet in Zechariah's prophecy of the 2nd Advent.

Nice verse. I think I commented on it once but forgot about it.

In this verse it is Lord God (YHWH) is using the allegory and He is Lord of Hosts
Zech 9:15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar. 16And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

Using trumpets (and shouts) as evidence is sketchy. The phrase appears to be prophetic prose, symbolic of God's Might.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have been shown clear evidence FOR eternal torment, but you have chosen to reject it. And there is NO body of evidence against it. One could say you have deceived yourself. The Bible is clear. Rev 20 is clear; all of it.{/QUOTE]

That is your only defense, and it isn't provable. It's just your deceived opinion. When John INCLUDED the aspect of TIME by saying "day and night" followed up with forever and ever, he was clearly teaching that he WAS speaking literally.

I DON'T "get to decide". John made it very clear about the lake of fire being literally FOREVER when he INCLUDED TIME.

The words "day and night" refer to the passage of time, whether you want to agree of not. Then he added "forever and ever" right after the passage of time. So it is LITERAL because of what John said. The other verses you cited did NOT include any specific passage of time, so ARE NOT RELEVANT OR MATERIAL to what John wrote in Rev 20.

Me, shy?? lol. I don't need any other verse to support what I believe. John's words are ENOUGH to understand that he WAS speaking about the passage of time; throughout eternity.


I was raised in the Christian home, and was Presbyterian, then Baptist, and then independent. So please don't lay that "denomination" stuff on me. I haven't attended a denominational church for probably 25 years.


I have never doubted your faith, so you don't have to defend it, as if I have. btw, EVERY believer has been chosen/elected by God to serve Him. Eph 1:4 says so plainly.

Eternal punishment is death. The Bible repeatedly says that and the word of God refutes you. You're severely blind.

James 4:12 "God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
Hebrews 10:39 " But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
Philippians 3:18-19 "For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 They are headed for destruction."
Psalm 92:7 "Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
Psalm 1:6: "... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
Hebrews 10:26-27 "There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
2 Peter 3:7 "...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
Romans 2:7 "He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die..."
Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies."
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death."
2 Peter 2:6 "and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
Revelation 20:14-15 "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
I guess most annihilationists don't realize that their view of the unsaved parallels that of atheists who deny any afterlife at all.

The only difference is annihilationists have to admit some amount of suffering before the soul is annihilated. That wouldn't hardly impress an atheist.

I GUARANTEE on the Word of God that I am NOT calling God an atheist. But your view is still tantamount to what the atheists believe.


yes, people can and do die. I just guess you won't accept that in the Bible "souls" refer to people, not the immaterial separated from the material.

The Bible clearly shows dead believers IN heaven and shouting.

Rev 6-
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

Clear as day! But you ignore or dismiss it as irrelevant.

Jesus gave an account of the after life. And you dismiss it as a parable, even with a WRONG message.

Rev 20:10 speaks of the passage of time, followed by "forever and ever".

This means the passage of time that is forever and ever means NO ENDING.

But you are satisfied with your views, even though they do not line up with these facts.

You have no idea who God is if you still think He sends people to eternal torment. I don't believe you and I have the same God at this point.

 

[TheLearner]

Good night all

 

[TheLearner]

Years ago, friend

try free trail https://www.perlego.com/book/249109...study-of-the-doctrine-of-final-punishment-pdf

 

[Runningman]

James defines death as seperation of body and spirit brother. By whatever it is called, seperation from God would be defined as death.

Which verses support that?

 

[Runningman]

a lazy person would not even get out of bed to beg. If he was a lepar, no one will hire him.

If he's a leper then why would someone drop him at the gate, but they won't get close enough to him to hire him to work?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal punishment is death.

Yes, if you properly understand Scripture.

We KNOW from Rev 20:10 that those thrown into the lake of fire will experience the time span of torment to be forever and ever.

We also KNOW that the lake of fire is called the "second death". This is because all unbelievers will be resurrected in their mortal physical bodies to appear before the GWT judgment, and then thrown into the lake of fire, where their mortal bodies will DIE AGAIN.

However, 20:10 explains their torment; the span of time will be forever and ever.

The Bible repeatedly says that and the word of God refutes you.

You couldn't be more wrong.

You're severely blind.

You couldn't be more wrong.

I'e given you very logical concepts directly from Scripture. Doesn't matter how many verses you quote. You are interpreting them incorrectly, in light of the clear words of Rev 20:10. Time span - eternity.

But you deny that, in spite of the clarity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have no idea who God is if you still think He sends people to eternal torment.

Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

It is foolish to dismiss "ETERNAL punishment" as merely ceasing to exist.

No one experiences anything when they cease to exist. Beyond foolishness.

You have a view that is contrary to clear Scripture. You have the problem. Not I.

I don't believe you and I have the same God at this point.

That may very well be true.

But I believe the words of Jesus in Matt 25:46, and the words John was told to write in Rev 20:10. And both of them refute YOUR views.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Which verses support that?

James 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If he's a leper then why would someone drop him at the gate, but they won't get close enough to him to hire him to work?

Let it go already. We have all the facts Jesus wanted to give. He was POOR, was put down by the gate of the rich man. Period.

And quit missing the whole point of the account; there are no second chances for those who have died.

 

[JAPOV]

Let it go already. We have all the facts Jesus wanted to give. He was POOR, was put down by the gate of the rich man. Period.

And quit missing the whole point of the account; there are no second chances for those who have died.

And a pig wearing pearls is still a pig...

 

[Runningman]

Let it go already. We have all the facts Jesus wanted to give. He was POOR, was put down by the gate of the rich man. Period.

And quit missing the whole point of the account; there are no second chances for those who have died.

First of all, your arrogance is quite off-putting as you seem to have the audacity to tell me when to stop talking. You don't tell me when I am ready to let it go. What you have the right to do is keep silent and hold your peace, but don't try to control me. Let me remind you Mr. FreeGrace2 that this is a Bible discussion forum. If you can't answer my questions then don't bother responding with your snide comments.

 

[TheLearner]

How do you know this?


Why would Jesus tell someone who was about to go to sleep where he would be? Why does it matter where ANY soul goes if they are simply sleeping and unconscious? All of this makes no sense.

And Jesus didn't go to sleep. He went to "preach to the spirits in prison". How do you do that while asleep?


Why would Jesus tell a totally FALSE and made up story that isn't even possible if soul sleep is real?

It isn't a parable. It is a glimpse of the afterlife. And the teaching is that there are no second chances. Even some believers think there will be a second chance for everyone.

Verses 9-10 clearly shows that the dead sleep and wake up like we do here on earth. I already covered the mountain of the gods verses that are misapplied to Satan.

Isaiah 14
Easy-to-Read Version
Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.

A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:

The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
12 You were like the morning star,
but you have fallen from the sky.
In the past, all the nations on earth bowed down before you,
but now you have been cut down.
13 You always told yourself,
“I will go to the skies above.
I will put my throne above God’s stars.
I will sit on Zaphon, the holy mountain where the gods meet.
14 I will go up to the altar above the tops of the clouds.
I will be like God Most High.”

15 But that did not happen.
You were brought down to the deep pit—Sheol, the place of death.
16 People will come to look at your dead body.
They will think about you and say,
“Is this the same man
who caused great fear in all the kingdoms on earth,
17 who destroyed cities
and turned the land into a desert,
who captured people in war
and would not let them go home?”
18 The kings of other nations lie buried with honor,
each king with his own grave.
19 But you were thrown out of your grave
like a branch cut from a tree and thrown away.
You are like a dead man who fell in battle,
trampled under the feet of other soldiers.
Now you look like any other dead man
wrapped in burial clothes.
20 Other kings have their own graves,
but you will not join them,
because you ruined your own country
and killed your own people.
So your wicked descendants will be stopped.

21 Prepare to kill his children,
because their father is guilty.
His children will never take control of the land.
They will never fill the world with their cities.

22 The Lord All-Powerful said, “I will stand and fight against those people. I will destroy the famous city, Babylon. I will destroy all the people there. I will destroy their children, their grandchildren, and their great-grandchildren.” The Lord himself said this.

23 “I will change Babylon. It will be a place for animals,[c] not people. It will be a swamp. I will use the ‘broom of destruction’ to sweep Babylon away.” The Lord All-Powerful said this.

God Will Also Punish Assyria
24 The Lord All-Powerful made this promise: “This will happen exactly as I meant for it to happen. It will happen just the way I planned. 25 I will destroy the king of Assyria in my country. I will walk on him on my mountains. He forced my people to be his slaves; he put a yoke on their necks. But that pole will be taken off Judah’s neck, and that burden will be removed. 26 This is what I plan to do for this land. I will use my power to punish all those nations.”

27 When the Lord All-Powerful makes a plan, no one can change it. When he raises his arm to punish, no one can stop him.

God’s Message to Philistia
28 This message[d] was given to me the year King Ahaz died[e]:

29 Country of Philistia, don’t be happy that the king who beat you is now dead. It is true that his rule has ended, but his son will come and rule. It will be like one snake giving birth to a more dangerous one. The new king will be like a quick and dangerous snake to you. 30 But even the poorest of my people will be able to eat safely. And their children will be able to lie down and feel safe. But I will make your family die from hunger, and your enemy will kill anyone who survives.

31 People near the city gates, cry!
People in the city, cry out!
Everyone in Philistia,
your courage will melt like hot wax.

Look to the north!
There is a cloud of dust.
An army is coming,
and everyone in that army is strong.[f]
32 But what will the messengers from that nation report about us?
They will say, “The Lord made Zion strong,
and his poor people went there for safety.”

Footnotes
Isaiah 14:1 non-Israelites This usually means those who live in a country but are not yet citizens of that country. Here, it is the non-Israelites who decided to follow God.
Isaiah 14:13 Zaphon This Hebrew word literally means “north” or “hidden.”
Isaiah 14:23 animals Literally, “porcupines.”
Isaiah 14:28 message Or “burden.” Also in 15:1.
Isaiah 14:28 year King Ahaz died About 727 B.C.
Isaiah 14:31 everyone … strong Or “there are no stragglers in that group.”
Isaiah 13
Isaiah 15

 

[TheLearner]

Nice verse. I think I commented on it once but forgot about it.

In this verse it is Lord God (YHWH) is using the allegory and He is Lord of Hosts
Zech 9:15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar. 16And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

Using trumpets (and shouts) as evidence is sketchy. The phrase appears to be prophetic prose, symbolic of God's Might.

Isaiah 25:6
God’s Banquet for His Servants
The Lord All-Powerful will give a feast for all the people on this mountain. At the feast, there will be the best foods and wines. The meat will be good and tender, the wine pure and clear.

 

[TheLearner]

Eternal punishment is death. The Bible repeatedly says that and the word of God refutes you. You're severely blind.

James 4:12 "God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
Hebrews 10:39 " But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
Philippians 3:18-19 "For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 They are headed for destruction."
Psalm 92:7 "Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
Psalm 1:6: "... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
Hebrews 10:26-27 "There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
2 Peter 3:7 "...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
Romans 2:7 "He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die..."
Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies."
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death."
2 Peter 2:6 "and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
Revelation 20:14-15 "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

Psalm 92
Easy-to-Read Version
A song of praise for the Sabbath.
92 It is good to praise the Lord.
God Most High, it is good to praise your name.
2 It is good to sing about your love in the morning
and about your faithfulness at night.
3 It is good to play for you on the ten-stringed instrument and lyre
and to add the soft sounds of the harp to my praise.
4 Lord, you make us very happy because of what you did.
I gladly sing about it.
5 Lord, you did such great things.
Your thoughts are too hard for us to understand.
6 Stupid people don’t know this.
Fools don’t understand.
7 The wicked may sprout like grass,
and those who do evil may blossom like flowers,
but they will be destroyed, never to be seen again.
8 But, Lord, you will be honored forever.

9 Lord, all your enemies will be destroyed,
and all who do evil will be scattered.
10 But you have made me as strong as a wild ox.
You have given me your blessing.[a]
11 My eyes will see the defeat of those waiting to attack me.
My ears will hear the cries of my evil enemies.

12 Good people are like budding palm trees.
They grow strong like the cedar trees of Lebanon.
13 They are planted in the house of the Lord.
They grow strong there in the courtyards of our God.
14 Even when they are old,
they will continue producing fruit like young, healthy trees.
15 They are there to show everyone that the Lord is good.[c]
He is my Rock, and he does no wrong.[d]

The context is people being killed on earth, not the afterlife. Context Matters and we covered this before.

 

[TheLearner]

Which verses support that?

James 2:26
James 2:26 ►
CLA LIT CAT ARA STR
Modern Translations
New International Version
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

New Living Translation
Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

English Standard Version
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Berean Study Bible
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

New American Standard Bible
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

NASB 1995
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

NASB 1977
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Amplified Bible
For just as the [human] body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works [of obedience] is also dead.

Christian Standard Bible
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Contemporary English Version
Anyone who doesn't breathe is dead, and faith that doesn't do anything is just as dead!

Good News Translation
So then, as the body without the spirit is dead, also faith without actions is dead.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
A body that doesn't breathe is dead. In the same way faith that does nothing is dead.

International Standard Version
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without actions is also dead.

NET Bible
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Classic Translations
King James Bible
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

New King James Version
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

King James 2000 Bible
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

New Heart English Bible
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

World English Bible
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

American King James Version
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

American Standard Version
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

A Faithful Version
For as the body without the spirit is dead, in the same way also, faith without works is dead.

Darby Bible Translation
For as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

English Revised Version
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

Webster's Bible Translation
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Early Modern
Geneva Bible of 1587
For as the body without ye spirit is dead, euen so the faith without workes is dead.

Bishops' Bible of 1568
For as the body without the spirite is dead: euen so, fayth without workes, is dead also

Coverdale Bible of 1535
For as the body, with oute the sprete is deed, euen so faith wt out dedes is deed.

Tyndale Bible of 1526
For as the body with oute the sprete is deed eve so fayth with out dedes is deed
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
For as the body apart from [the] spirit is dead, so also the faith apart from works is dead.

Berean Literal Bible
For just as the body apart from spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Young's Literal Translation
for as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also the faith apart from the works is dead.

Smith's Literal Translation
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Literal Emphasis Translation
For just as the body apart from the spirit is dead; so also faith apart from works is dead.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Catholic Public Domain Version
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Translations from Aramaic
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Lamsa Bible
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Godbey New Testament
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith also apart from works is dead.

Haweis New Testament
For as the body without breath is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Mace New Testament
as the body then without the soul is a meer carcase, so faith without its effects is lifeless.

Weymouth New Testament
For just as a human body without a spirit is lifeless, so also faith is lifeless if it is unaccompanied by obedience.

Worrell New Testament
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Worsley New Testament
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


https://biblehub.com/parallel/james/2-26.htm

 

[TheLearner]

If he's a leper then why would someone drop him at the gate, but they won't get close enough to him to hire him to work?

Good Question: There may be times when it is not contagious --- I am only guessing, not a doctor.

"
Outbreaks have affected people on every continent. But leprosy, also known as Hanson's disease, isn't that contagious. You can catch it only if you come into close and repeated contact with nose and mouth droplets from someone with untreated leprosy.Sep 28, 2020

Leprosy Symptoms, Treatments, History, and Causes - WebMD
"

 

[TheLearner]

Yes, if you properly understand Scripture.

We KNOW from Rev 20:10 that those thrown into the lake of fire will experience the time span of torment to be forever and ever.

We also KNOW that the lake of fire is called the "second death". This is because all unbelievers will be resurrected in their mortal physical bodies to appear before the GWT judgment, and then thrown into the lake of fire, where their mortal bodies will DIE AGAIN.

However, 20:10 explains their torment; the span of time will be forever and ever.


You couldn't be more wrong.


You couldn't be more wrong.

I'e given you very logical concepts directly from Scripture. Doesn't matter how many verses you quote. You are interpreting them incorrectly, in light of the clear words of Rev 20:10. Time span - eternity.

But you deny that, in spite of the clarity.

A theory I hold from Matthew 25 and I cor 15 is that everyone --- goats and sheep get the body that can not be destroyed by fire. Think about it what kind of body do goats and sheep have. Both have the same or very similar make up --- materials.

 

[TheLearner]

And a pig wearing pearls is still a pig...

Are you calling humans pigs? or just making a funny picture?