God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, scripture does not say that everyone (in the sense every-person-that-ever-lived-or-ever-will-live) knows that.

Oh it does not? So Romans 1 is not scripture? Eph 4 is not in scripture?




The person and work of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Yet the person of work of Jesus was for them also. Scripture makes this clear. Thats why they have no excuse. If Jesus did not die for them, they would have an excuse.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
who is doing the calling?
and did He say He was calling everyone?
NO

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Romans 3:10
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

tell me....who is being called and who isn't?
Look at the context.. I can;t believe you would even use this.. Who did Jesus call the righteous?

And think about what you just said. According to what you just said, he called everyone to repentance, because as you rightly said, there is non righteous.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
...It is not choosing right. It is choosing to allow someone to save you, instead of denying you need saved, or trying to save yourself.
Even that is not our work, bro. It is God's doing. "Not of yourselves".

[h=3]Eph.2[/h][1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved; )
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Sleepy_Time.jpg
Sleepytime
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
okay....but what did you mean here then bud?



Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
I asked you what separated them from those who do repent and those who do not.

faith is a byproduct of repentance.. so why did you say anything about faith?
So it is not faith which separated them so what was it?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Look at the context.. I can;t believe you would even use this.. Who did Jesus call the righteous?

And think about what you just said. According to what you just said, he called everyone to repentance, because as you rightly said, there is non righteous.
EG - who was He responding to when He said He had not come to call the righteous?

Luke 18
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayeda thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I asked you what separated them from those who do repent and those who do not.

faith is a byproduct of repentance.. so why did you say anything about faith?
So it is not faith which separated them so what was it?
sorry EG.
i guess i misunderstood.
so what separated them?

what is the difference between Jim who is saved (believed, repented and was baptized) and Dan who isn't (didn't)?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Even that is not our work, bro. It is God's doing. "Not of yourselves".



View attachment 40028
Sleepytime

lol.. We are saved by faith not works.. Faith is apposed to works. not grace, grace is given to those who work also. It is just grace given to them can not save them.

Who said faith was a work of me? Your the one saying this because your following a doctrine of men. Faith is not my work unless I trust self. Can you prove I am trusting self when I God saved by faith alone?? if you can;t your whole argument is destroyed.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
sorry EG.
i guess i misunderstood.
so what separated them?

what is the difference between Jim who is saved (believed, repented and was baptized) and Dan who isn't (didn't)?
well if according to scripture both Jim and Dan

1. Know they are rightly condemned
2. Are both convicted of sin righteousness and judgment.

you tell me.. Why did one repent and the other not?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.


4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).

Gal 5:22,23: "22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,

patience, kindness, goodness, faith (4102/pistis), 23gentleness,

self-control; against such things there is no law."

2 Thes 1:11: "To this end (glorification) – indeed each time we pray about (peri) you for the purpose (hin) of our God counting you worthy of the call – even that He may fulfill (His) every good-pleasure that comes from (His) goodness and work of faith, in (His) ability."

Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort.

2. Faith (4102/pistis) enables the believer to know God's preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin; see 2307/thelçma). Accordingly, faith (4102/pistis) and "God's preferred-will (2307/thelçma)" are directly connected in Scripture.

2 Ro 12:2,3: " And do not be conformed to this world, but betransformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will (2307/thelçma) of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

5 2 Cor 8:5,7: " And this, not as we had expected, but they first

gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will (2307/thelçma) of

God" (NASU).

7" But just as you abound in everything, in faith (4102/pistis)

and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love

we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also"

(NASU).

Heb 10:36,38: "36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will (2307/thelçma) of God, you may receive what was promised" (NASU).

" BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH(4102/pistis); AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM" (NASU).

1 Jn 5:4: "For whatever is born of God conquers the world;

and this is the conquest that has conquered the world – our faith

(4102/pistis)."

3. In sum, faith (4102/pistis) is a persuasion from God that we receive as He grants impulse ("divine spark"; cf. the Heb hiphil form of believe, *mn, in a later discussion). Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice – whereby the believer lays hold of His preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin).

1 Hab 2:1: " I will stand on my guard post And station myself on the rampart;

And I will keep watch to see what He will speak in (Heb b ) me" (NASU).

Hab 2:4: "Behold, as for the proud one,

His soul is not right within him;

But the righteous will live in his faith" (= 4102/pistis, "faith from the Lord").

More on what faith is . . . and isn't

In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!
Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).
In all of Scripture, only the term faith is ever used in the following way: Ro 14:23: Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to
please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (NASU).

Reflection: Nothing quite like this two-fold witness appears elsewhere in the Bible. These sweeping statements sober the heart and inspire the soul!

The Lord offers to inbirth faith in each scene of life – so that each matters equally in eternity . . . no matter how insignificant they seem (Lk 16:10 with Lk 17:6 and 2 Pet 1:2).

Key quotes

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Genesis, 55). "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Hebrews, 143). "Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" (W. Hendriksen, Galatians, 197). "Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by

reason of existing" (D. Edmond Hiebert, Thessalonians, 2 Thes 1:11). "Faith is always a gift of God" (L. Morris, John, p 520). "The basis of faith is God's revelation of Himself . . . Christianity came

to be seen as a faith event" (O. Michel, Dictionary of New Testament Theology).

"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God" (from Berkof's Systematic Theology, representing the views of Barth and Brunner).

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for . . . with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . . if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting, you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability, . . . faith is not natural . . .faith is spiritual, the gift of God . . . you cannot command faith at will, faith is always something that is given-inwrought by God; . . . therefore, if you want to be a man of faith, it will always be the result of becoming a certain type of person" (M. Lloyd Jones, Romans, Ro 4:18-25).

"Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen" (Homer Kent Jr., Hebrews, 217, quoting Theological Dictionary of the NT vol 2, 476).

"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order" (F.

F. Bruce, Hebrews, 279).

"Faith is knowing what is His will toward us; therefore, we hold faith to be the knowledge of God's will toward us" (John Calvin, as quoted by R. McAfee Brown in Is Faith Obsolete?).

"Right faith is a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit" (Wm. Tyndale).

"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . . genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give . . . do not struggle in the power of the will . . . what a mistake to take our belief in God and call of faith . . . Christ, the living word, is our sufficiency . . . (Charles Price, The Real Faith, Logos/publications).

Note: On the distinction between believing (belief), and faith in the Scriptures see Js 2:19; Jn 10:38; Ac 8:13, 26:27,28; Ro 14:2; 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Jn 4:1; also Jn 2:23, 7:31, 12:42 and 4102/pisteuô ("believe").

As in the Gospels, a person's believing (belief) is vital (cf. Heb 11:6). But a personal encounter with Christ (a true connection with Him and His Word) is always necessary for believing ("man's responsibility") to be transformed into faith (which is always and only God's word). See also Mt 8:10,13, 9:22,28,29, 15:28; Ac 20:21; Ro 9:32; Gal 3:9,22.

Summary

Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient. Faith however is always from God and is purely His work (2 Thes 1:11).

Note: The Greek definite article is uniformly used in the expressions "your faith," "their faith" (which occur over 30 times in the Greek NT). This genitive construction with the article refers to "the principle of faith (operating in) you" – not "your faith" in the sense that faith is ever generated by the recipient.

[The meaning of the definite article in this construction is "the principle of faith at work in you," "the operating-principle of faith in them," etc. For examples see: Mt 9:2,22,29; Lk 17:19; Phil 2:17; 2 Pet 1:5, etc.]

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God. Faith is always God's work. Our believing has eternal meaning when it becomes "faith-believing" by the transforming grace of God.

Reflection: Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!

Js 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (NASU).



Word Origin
from peithó
Definition
faith, faithfulness
NASB Translation
faith (238), faithfulness (3), pledge (1), proof (1)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
EG - who was He responding to when He said He had not come to call the righteous?

Luke 18
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayeda thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
exactly, they trusted self. they thought they were already made right with God and did not need Christ. so why would God go to them. and not those who know they need saved?

also note this..


For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Guess we have to chose to do this ourself do we not??
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
who is doing the calling?
and did He say He was calling everyone?
NO

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Romans 3:10
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

tell me....who is being called and who isn't?
Those He seeks are those who worship him in spirit and truth. This excludes the righteous who think they are good enough and the heretics who do not know the truth.

Joh 4:23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).
Ephesians 1
Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined usb for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making knownc to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.


arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Short Definition: an earnest, earnest-money
Definition: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.

728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).

728 /arrhabṓn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. 728 (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).


i see a lot of GUARANTEEING from God that what He set out to do He will do.
and i see Him giving GIFTS so we will KNOW He means what He said.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
this is all a defense of "limited atonement" nothing more.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
well if according to scripture both Jim and Dan

1. Know they are rightly condemned
2. Are both convicted of sin righteousness and judgment.

you tell me.. Why did one repent and the other not?
you tell me EG.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.


4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).

Gal 5:22,23: "22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,

patience, kindness, goodness, faith (4102/pistis), 23gentleness,

self-control; against such things there is no law."

2 Thes 1:11: "To this end (glorification) – indeed each time we pray about (peri) you for the purpose (hin) of our God counting you worthy of the call – even that He may fulfill (His) every good-pleasure that comes from (His) goodness and work of faith, in (His) ability."

Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort.

2. Faith (4102/pistis) enables the believer to know God's preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin; see 2307/thelçma). Accordingly, faith (4102/pistis) and "God's preferred-will (2307/thelçma)" are directly connected in Scripture.

2 Ro 12:2,3: " And do not be conformed to this world, but betransformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will (2307/thelçma) of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

5 2 Cor 8:5,7: " And this, not as we had expected, but they first

gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will (2307/thelçma) of

God" (NASU).

7" But just as you abound in everything, in faith (4102/pistis)

and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love

we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also"

(NASU).

Heb 10:36,38: "36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will (2307/thelçma) of God, you may receive what was promised" (NASU).

" BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH(4102/pistis); AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM" (NASU).

1 Jn 5:4: "For whatever is born of God conquers the world;

and this is the conquest that has conquered the world – our faith

(4102/pistis)."

3. In sum, faith (4102/pistis) is a persuasion from God that we receive as He grants impulse ("divine spark"; cf. the Heb hiphil form of believe, *mn, in a later discussion). Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice – whereby the believer lays hold of His preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin).

1 Hab 2:1: " I will stand on my guard post And station myself on the rampart;

And I will keep watch to see what He will speak in (Heb b ) me" (NASU).

Hab 2:4: "Behold, as for the proud one,

His soul is not right within him;

But the righteous will live in his faith" (= 4102/pistis, "faith from the Lord").

More on what faith is . . . and isn't

In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!
Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).
In all of Scripture, only the term faith is ever used in the following way: Ro 14:23: Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to
please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (NASU).

Reflection: Nothing quite like this two-fold witness appears elsewhere in the Bible. These sweeping statements sober the heart and inspire the soul!

The Lord offers to inbirth faith in each scene of life – so that each matters equally in eternity . . . no matter how insignificant they seem (Lk 16:10 with Lk 17:6 and 2 Pet 1:2).

Key quotes

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Genesis, 55). "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Hebrews, 143). "Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" (W. Hendriksen, Galatians, 197). "Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by

reason of existing" (D. Edmond Hiebert, Thessalonians, 2 Thes 1:11). "Faith is always a gift of God" (L. Morris, John, p 520). "The basis of faith is God's revelation of Himself . . . Christianity came

to be seen as a faith event" (O. Michel, Dictionary of New Testament Theology).

"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God" (from Berkof's Systematic Theology, representing the views of Barth and Brunner).

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for . . . with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . . if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting, you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability, . . . faith is not natural . . .faith is spiritual, the gift of God . . . you cannot command faith at will, faith is always something that is given-inwrought by God; . . . therefore, if you want to be a man of faith, it will always be the result of becoming a certain type of person" (M. Lloyd Jones, Romans, Ro 4:18-25).

"Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen" (Homer Kent Jr., Hebrews, 217, quoting Theological Dictionary of the NT vol 2, 476).

"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order" (F.

F. Bruce, Hebrews, 279).

"Faith is knowing what is His will toward us; therefore, we hold faith to be the knowledge of God's will toward us" (John Calvin, as quoted by R. McAfee Brown in Is Faith Obsolete?).

"Right faith is a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit" (Wm. Tyndale).

"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . . genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give . . . do not struggle in the power of the will . . . what a mistake to take our belief in God and call of faith . . . Christ, the living word, is our sufficiency . . . (Charles Price, The Real Faith, Logos/publications).

Note: On the distinction between believing (belief), and faith in the Scriptures see Js 2:19; Jn 10:38; Ac 8:13, 26:27,28; Ro 14:2; 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Jn 4:1; also Jn 2:23, 7:31, 12:42 and 4102/pisteuô ("believe").

As in the Gospels, a person's believing (belief) is vital (cf. Heb 11:6). But a personal encounter with Christ (a true connection with Him and His Word) is always necessary for believing ("man's responsibility") to be transformed into faith (which is always and only God's word). See also Mt 8:10,13, 9:22,28,29, 15:28; Ac 20:21; Ro 9:32; Gal 3:9,22.

Summary

Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient. Faith however is always from God and is purely His work (2 Thes 1:11).

Note: The Greek definite article is uniformly used in the expressions "your faith," "their faith" (which occur over 30 times in the Greek NT). This genitive construction with the article refers to "the principle of faith (operating in) you" – not "your faith" in the sense that faith is ever generated by the recipient.

[The meaning of the definite article in this construction is "the principle of faith at work in you," "the operating-principle of faith in them," etc. For examples see: Mt 9:2,22,29; Lk 17:19; Phil 2:17; 2 Pet 1:5, etc.]

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God. Faith is always God's work. Our believing has eternal meaning when it becomes "faith-believing" by the transforming grace of God.

Reflection: Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!

Js 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (NASU).



Word Origin
from peithó
Definition
faith, faithfulness
NASB Translation
faith (238), faithfulness (3), pledge (1), proof (1)
I am not going to respond to this long of a post. Can you shorten it up??

and where do you get your defnitions?

πίστις, -εως, ἡ, (πείθω [q. v.]), fr. [Hes., Theogn., Pind.], Aeschyl., Hdt. down; Sept. for אֱמוּנָה, several times for אֱמֶת and אֲמָנָה; faith; i. e.
1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief, (Plat., Polyb., Joseph., Plut.; θαυμάσια καὶ μείζω πίστεως, Diod. 1, 86); in the N. T. of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with u: Heb. 11:1 (where πίστις is called ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασες, πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων); opp. to εἶδος, 2 Co. 5:7; joined with ἀγάπη and ἐλπίς, 1 Co. 13:13.


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (512–513). New York: Harper & Brothers.

πίστις, ἡ, gen. εως: dat. πίστει, Ion. πίστῑ: Ion. nom. and acc. pl. πίστῑς; dat. πίστισι: (πείθομαι):—trust in others, faith, Lat. fides, fiducia, Hes., Theogn., Att.; c. gen. pers. faith or belief in one, Eur.:—generally, persuasion of a thing, confidence, assurance, Pind., Att.
2. good faith, trustworthiness, faithfulness, honesty, Lat. fides, Theogn., Hdt., Att.
3. in a commercial sense, credit, trust, πίστις τοσούτων χρημάτων ἐστί μοι παρά τινι I have credit for so much money with him, Dem.; εἰς πίστιν διδόναι τί τινι Id.
4. in Theol. faith, belief, as opp. to sight and knowledge, N.T.
II. that which gives confidence: hence,
1. an assurance, pledge of good faith, warrant, guarantee, Soph., Eur.; πίστιν καὶ ὅρκια ποιεῖσθαι to make a treaty by exchange of assurances and oaths, Hdt.; οὔτε π. οὔθʼ ὅρκος μένει Ar.; πίστιν διδόναι to give assurances, Hdt.; διδόναι καὶ λαμβάνειν to interchange them, Xen.:—of an oath, θεῶν πίστεις ὀμνύναι Thuc.; πίστιν ἐπιτιθέναι or προστιθέναι τινί Dem.:—φόβων π. an assurance against fears, Eur.
2. a means of persuasion, an argument, proof, such as used by orators, Plat., etc.


Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon (641). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.



πίστις 4102
In accordance with its common NT usage, πίστις is used of “faith,” “confidence” in a person in such passages as P Strass I. 4138 (c. A.D. 250), when in a legal process a witness is charged—ὡς πρεσβύτης καὶ πίστεως ἄξιος εἰπὲ ἃ οἶδας ἐν τῷ πρά[γματ]ι̣, and P Oxy XIV. 162714 (A.D. 342) διὰ τὴν περὶ ἡμᾶς μετριότητα καὶ πίστις (l. πίστιν), “owing to your clemency to us and confidence in us” (Edd.). In P Lond 23311 (A.D. 345) (= II. p. 273, Chrest. I. p. 68) the editor translates τ̣ῇ σῇ πίστ(ε)ι as apparently = “at your discretion” or “on your own credit.”


Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament (515). London: Hodder and Stoughton.
 
S

Semaj

Guest
This thread appears quite the delirious undertaking..

If God decides everything then this discussion is quite redundant.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
more:

4102. πίστις pistis, pis´-tis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; mor. conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), espec. reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstr. constancy in such profession; by extens. the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Strong, J. (2009). Vol. 1: A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (58). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
you tell me EG.

what are you afraid? Your not able to think for yourself?? I am trying to get you to think. to see where your coming from.