God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[tribesman]

this corridors of time things is awful.

Yes and its beyond me why some people yet insist, contrary to this knowledge, that their salvation hangs upon their "decision" to "choose the right" , while still unregenerate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I edited that post and added: Should you yet happen not to agree with it then at least you know more about it.

You were brought up in a calvinist home, weren't you? Correct me if wrong, but that's what I recall. So maybe you don't feel you have the greatest need for studying monergism, since you might know the basics well. Not sure, but this is a general principle: you study up on the matter you wish to discuss. There is no contradiction to this and to always study the Word. OK?

1. I grew up Baptist. I believe they leaned towards calvanism.
2. Why would I want to talk about monergism.. You guys are the one who keeps bringing it up.. Not me. I want to discuss what God says, not what some doctrine says.
3. About the only reason I would have to study it is to find out why people believe it, But I do this for things like mormonism and catholicism.. why would I need to do it here?

Other than that, it's a straw man rhetoric you used. Even your tradition you're into now consists of men who make their interpretations. Much of their sources surely comes from other men, probably some of these sources are even calvinists.

lol. Most of what I believe now I got from what I studied.

I grew up an avid baptist and dispensationalist. It was not listening to men which caused me to change it was studying what it was I was taught that got me to believe what I believe.

What I find funny are all those fence sitters who just like to look at beliefs and doctrines from the outside, never really taking a firm or decisive stand for anything, thinking theology is like a smorgasbord where one can pick and choose after taste. Or that it really doesn't matter...they have their "personal relation" which feels good, so why care about what the father's in the faith fought for, why care about doctrine too much. See? That's the attitude especially among non-denoms.

lol.. do what? you did not listen to what I said.

Arminians fight Osas not because they want actually study it, they do it because they are so anti-calvin they would nbot agree with even one point.. So why study? they say calvanism teaches easy believism. so we all must'

You yourself do this with pre-millinialism.. You always state I believe this, because you have learned a doctrine which says we all believe this, thus I must.

that is the danger of studying and picking a doctrine or belief, and not trying to see truth. Alot of non denoms are non denoms, because no one actually believes everything one denomination teaches.. so why chose to pick on or the other?

Behind every belief, teaching and doctrine there is a succession and history (even for those who claim otherwise). If you want to seriously discuss such at least it should be normal and rational to get a basic and foundational understanding of same. Like you said you've studied RC doctrine, if I recall it right. Otherwise it's more like subjective opinions, our out of the blue opinions. That's all bro.

yes.. this is the problem.. It is subjective if we study doctrines, it makes us pre-biased to follow a man made doctrine, and not look at what scripture says.. As I showed above

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did Moses chose to be chosen and called of his own free will?

What does this have to do with anything? Did moses chose to follow God or not?? Moses did not have to kill that man, he chose to. Moses did not have to follow God. He chose to.

 

[zone]

I agree whole heartedly.
But the point of this thread is who draws us to repentance?
The Bible shows over and over it is God and not ourselves.

again....who are we arguing with here?

Exodus 33:19
He said, "I will cause all My goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim the name Yahweh before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

 

[zone]

2 Tim:2:25
With gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth (I'm trying to be gentle and lead people to the truth so that those of the Reformed faith will repent of their error.)

Phil. 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake (This is the cross Christians have to bear.)

Matt. 16:16-17
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Simon Barjona was being led by the Spirit as true believers are.)

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (The Jews rejected the message of Paul and Barnabas who turned to the Gentiles. The Gentiles rejoiced when they heard they were also part of God's plan of salvation which had been formulated at the foundation of the earth for all who believe.

Two verses earlier we read "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you" This is what Paul and Barnabas were doing, IT WAS NECESSARY, without we hear the word of God we cannot believe. We never heard the word at the foundation of the earth. The apostles were preaching the Gospel of Good News so that all who hear it might believe. Notice the difference between Jew and Gentile, the Jews chose to reject the Gospel even though they were the elect (chosen) while the Gentiles believed and became the elect in Christ who then became destined for Glory AFTER THEY BELIEVED. Notice also that "believing" did not require any 'work.')

Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Only the living can look to Jesus. This shows the folly of the reformed teaching, the unborn, the dead, cannot look to Jesus. It is the believer who is predestined for Glory; they are the elect. This was the plan from the foundation of the earth, that all who believe might be saved.

Notice also the previous verse which tells us how easily we can be tempted by sin. We are told to run the race with patience rather than be tempted away which shows the error of OSAS.)

nearly every passage you posted was written for those who already believe!

Matt. 16:16-17
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Simon Barjona was being led by the Spirit as true believers are.)

what?
Peter's was THE FIRST divinely revealed profession of who Jesus truly was.
he had just been called!

led by the Spirit?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

both.
we got the gift, and we do the work (it's painful) of unpacking it.
the GIFT is finding out how badly we need to be forgiven.

Amen.

Yet scripture says everyone knows this, thus no one has an excuse.

Thus what separates those who know this and repent, and those who know this and do not repent?

 

[Abiding]

Yes and its beyond me why some people yet insist, contrary to this knowledge, that their salvation hangs upon their "decision" to "choose the right" , while still unregenerate.

Can you explain what the purpose was that God talked to Cain?
Or Why but most importantly how did Adam sin?

 

[tribesman]

What does this have to do with anything?

Much of what is spoken here: free will in spiritual matters (man or God choosing man's destiny) and saving faith before regeneration, for example.

Moses did not have to follow God. He chose to.

Do you believe he was regenerate or unregenerate when he followed God?

 

[zone]

Amen.

Yet scripture says everyone knows this, thus no one has an excuse.

Thus what separates those who know this and repent, and those who know this and do not repent?

i dunno EG...their good faith?
something in them?

you tell me bud

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes and its beyond me why some people yet insist, contrary to this knowledge, that their salvation hangs upon their "decision" to "choose the right" , while still unregenerate.

Choose right? where do you get this? If we could choose right, we would not need to be saved. we could just choose to do right.

It is not choosing right. It is choosing to allow someone to save you, instead of denying you need saved, or trying to save yourself.

Contrary to this knowledge, you have a man forgiven of his sin and made right, before he has faith.. which is against scripture.

 

[zone]

Can you explain what the purpose was that God talked to Cain?
Or Why but most importantly how did Adam sin?

Mike, these people spoke directly to God Himself. they knew Him.
directly.
He spoke to Cain face to face (or in some other direct manner).

 

[Abiding]

 

[tribesman]

Amen. Yet scripture says everyone knows this, thus no one has an excuse.

No, scripture does not say that everyone (in the sense every-person-that-ever-lived-or-ever-will-live) knows that.

Thus what separates those who know this and repent, and those who know this and do not repent?

The person and work of Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[Abiding]

Mike, these people spoke directly to God Himself. they knew Him.
directly.
He spoke to Cain face to face (or in some other direct manner).

I spose i dont understand what that has to do with it.
My question was why? Why did God talk to Cain, an unregenerate according to some.
Why did God mislead Cain and tell him he had a free will to operate?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Much of what is spoken here: free will in spiritual matters (man or God choosing man's destiny) and saving faith before regeneration, for example.

So lets look at a doctrine of man and not Gods word? Forgive me, but this in itself is a strawman!

The argument is not man choosing outside of Gods will, neither of us believe this. The argument is how a man is saved. And when. You have a man saved before he has faith.




Do you believe he was regenerate or unregenerate when he followed God?[/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So lets look at a doctrine of man and not Gods word? Forgive me, but this in itself is a strawman!

The argument is not man choosing outside of Gods will, neither of us believe this. The argument is how a man is saved. And when. You have a man saved before he has faith.

Do you believe he was regenerate or unregenerate when he followed God?

Follow God? Did he get saved by following God?

 

[zone]

Just to make the comment that my faith in Doctors is nothing to boast about and neither is my faith in the Great Physician anything to boast about either, rather it is an acknowledgement of my own inadequacy and the need to ask for help.

who is doing the calling?
and did He say He was calling everyone?
NO

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Romans 3:10
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

tell me....who is being called and who isn't?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i dunno EG...their good faith?
something in them?

you tell me bud

Good faith? How can faith be a good work of a person? Again, Did a person do anything to earn that faith? Who's work are they trusting in? there own work or the work of God? Faith is not even a work, if it was, Paul would not have separated faith and works.

 

[zone]

Good faith? How can faith be a good work of a person? Again, Did a person do anything to earn that faith? Who's work are they trusting in? there own work or the work of God? Faith is not even a work, if it was, Paul would not have separated faith and works.

okay....but what did you mean here then bud?

Amen.

Yet scripture says everyone knows this, thus no one has an excuse.

Thus what separates those who know this and repent, and those who know this and do not repent?

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

 

[PS]

so we are gods?
our decision caused the Big God to do OUR WILL?

ask Abiding to tell you about God's Character - how He can not possibly learn something He did not already know.
He has to rehearse creation to find out who will love Him?

this corridors of time things is awful.

I agree.

Remember it is those He FOREKNEW who he predestined. (Rom 8:29) These are the believers who are predestined as and when they believe, like now.

To those who do not believe i.e. the wicked, he says, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:23) These are not predestined for Glory. (They are predestined -- for hell)