Does man have a libertarian free will?

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Of course He is.

But this is not the point being discussed (and I'm not even referring to the concept of "hardening" when I say this! That's not what I mean when I say this is "not the point being discussed" ).

[For example, I have spoken of John 12:32 a number of times (even in this thread)]

But why would you say a heart even needs to be "hardened" when it is already "a stone" from conception/birth, according to the viewpoint being put forth? (again, may the reader note the CONTEXTS of: Ezek11:4-21,19 ; 36:21-38,26 ; Zech7:8-14,12[and chpt 8]--ALL about "ISRAEL" who'd already had some history behind them)

Look at John 11. These religious leaders saw an undeniable miracle that could not easily deny nor turn a blind eye to. A man had been raised from the dead in their midst. Did they do the right thing and glorify God? No. They sought to kill Him and also Lazarus because he was a witness to that miracle. God was actively hardening their hearts as these miracles took place.

This fulfilled Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;[Matthew 13:13-14]

 

[Magenta]

Look at John 11. These religious leaders saw an undeniable miracle that could not easily deny nor turn a blind eye to. A man had been raised from the dead in their midst. Did they do the right thing and glorify God? No. They sought to kill Him and also Lazarus because he was a witness to that miracle. God was actively hardening their hearts as these miracles took place.

This fulfilled Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;[Matthew 13:13-14]

I do not see that in the text

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I do not see that in the text

The same sun that melts the snow hardens the clay. How else can you explain them seeing a man dead and buried for four days, and they witness him coming to life at this odd Jewish man's(He was an odd man to them, but not us ) command? They could not refute this miracle nor could they turn a blind eye to it. So, instead of doing the right thing and bowing to Him and praising Him for being Immanuel, they sought to have him and Lazarus(a testimony to who He is) murdered. God was hardening their hearts so they could not believe in Him. They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.[Isaiah 44:18] And also Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;[Matthew 13:13-14]

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, this article gives some idea on the problems with "free will" theology.

http://spiritoferror.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Gomes-God-in-Mans-Image-CRJ.pdf

It leads, quite often, to a denial of original sin, imputed righteousness, and justification by faith alone. It leads to pridefulness and boasting.

Note: when I use the phrase "free will", I mean libertarian free will...the idea that God does not affect or change the will or nature of the person in order to accomplish his purposes.

By the way, one of my pastors was a free-willer. The last time I talked to him at lunch, he told me how much freedom he felt knowing that God is basically letting him make his own path in the world. I remember him bringing up open theist gurus like Clark Pinnock and Greg Boyd at one time or another..I'm not sure if it was this lunch appointment or not, but I knew the context of his remarks and the toilet bowl theology he was drinking from.

I don't know how long it was after that, but he fell down the stairs at his home and broke his neck. He was going to the restroom and returned. He mistook the basement door for his bedroom, and stepped into the darkness. He lingered for a while after the accident, but could not move. His wife wouldn't let anyone see him due to the risk of pneumonia, but I asked her to tell him that God is in control.

In fact, I know that God was more than in control. He uses events and choices to guide his children in being conformed to the image of Christ.

However, I wonder if he got past the false teachings of Clark Pinnock and the rest of the "open theist" trash that infiltrates the Church today...I hope so. I think it would be very dark for him if he didn't realize that God was sovereignly operating within his circumstances, and that they had purpose.

My opinion of the writings of Pinnock and other open theists is that they should be used for outhouse toilet paper. They rob some of the confidence they should have in God's sovereignty and provision.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Free Will: Does Salvation Depend on a Person's Choice?

At the time of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther wrote a book entitled, The Bondage of the Will. This book was written against a man named Erasmus and his teaching that man has free-will, that is, the ability to choose whether or not he would be saved. Luther told Erasmus that this question about free-will was the most important issue of the Reformation. He said, "You [i.e., Erasmus] have not worried me with extraneous issues about the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, and such like, trifles rather than issues ... you, and you alone, have seen the hinge on which all turns, and have aimed for the vital spot."

In spite of what Luther wrote, the teaching of Erasmus concerning free-will has become the teaching of most of Protestantism today. Free-will is:

(1) A denial of predestination. Predestination means that God's will (God's choice) determines all things, including who will be saved (Ephesians 1:3-6). Free-will teaches that man's choice is the decisive thing in salvation.

(2) A denial of the biblical truth that saving faith is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10). Free-will teaches that faith is a person's own decision to trust in Christ.

(3) A denial of the truth that Christ died only for His people (Matthew 1:21). Free-will teaches that Christ died for all without exception and that their salvation now depends on their accepting Him, that is, on their "free-will" choice.

Belief in free-will also shows itself in the kind of preaching and evangelism that is most popular today, the kind that begs sinners to accept Christ, that uses altar calls, appeals, decision times, raising of hands, and other such tactics to persuade them to do so. All these things presuppose that a person's salvation depends on his own choice.

We believe that man's will is in bondage to sin and that he not only cannot do good, but he cannot even want (will) to do it (Romans 8:7-8). Especially he cannot do the greatest good of all, of choosing God and Christ.

We believe, therefore, that man cannot believe in Christ unless it is "given him from above" (John 6:44).

We also believe that not man's will, but God's sovereign and eternal will (predestination) is the decisive thing in salvation (Acts 13:48; Philippians 2:13).

What, then, is the point of preaching the gospel to all? It is "the power of God unto salvation" (Romans 1:16), the way in which God gives faith and repentance to all those whom He has chosen from eternity and redeemed in Christ. May it be that power unto salvation for many!

The Reformation Resurgence

 

[notuptome]

Still beating a dead horse.

God draws but men turn from the Light to the darkness. Adam chose to sin and you must choose to heed to call to salvation. Rebel and perish submit and live.

John 16:8-11 is an experience every born again blood bought believer has experienced. A man willingly turns from his sin or he remains lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[oyster67]

Does man have a libertarian free will?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[Angela53510]

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Out of context! This is a verse directed to the nation of a Israel. It is the promise of God to the Israelites before they enter Israel. It is also warnings to them about what will happen if they don't obey God. It is also about occupying the land and the blessings for obedience. And it was important, because the Israelites forgot God over and over, and they eventually were taken into captivity for Israel in 722 BC, and 586 BC for Judah!

It has nothing to do with salvation, or choosing to be saved.

You will have to do a lot better than that!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Out of context! This is a verse directed to the nation of a Israel. It is the promise of God to the Israelites before they enter Israel. It is also warnings to them about what will happen if they don't obey God. It is also about occupying the land and the blessings for obedience. And it was important, because the Israelites forgot God over and over, and they eventually were taken into captivity for Israel in 722 BC, and 586 BC for Judah!

It has nothing to do with salvation, or choosing to be saved.

You will have to do a lot better than that!

he is pointing out the fact that God told the Israelites to CHOOSE

so choose

the question regards free will

no one mentioned salvation...not even the op in his title

 

[Nehemiah6]

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This corresponds to the saying of Christ regarding the two gates:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13,14)

People literally enter gates because they choose to. The same applies to these metaphorical gates which apply to salvation (life) or damnation (destruction).

 

[Angela53510]

This corresponds to the saying of Christ regarding the two gates:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13,14)

People literally enter gates because they choose to. The same applies to these metaphorical gates which apply to salvation (life) or damnation (destruction).

God gave me a sort of vision, the second year I was a Christian, using Matt 7:13-14. He told me that before, I was on that broad road to destruction, before he saved me. He gave me the desire to repent, or turn around, and then I was in the narrow road which leads to life, or God. I've spent some time on that road sitting, a few times I looked back, and was horrified to see so many people walking eagerly towards hell, but mostly, like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress, I have tried to move forward. The reason, is because I see a bright light ahead, which I know is Jesus.

Jesus saved me, set me on the path, and we have been walking together, for 40 years this May. You do not make a choice to go through the gate. God makes us alive in him, and gives us the ability to repent and follow him. No need for decisional regeneration at all. And lots more reasons to testify and preach the gospel to those who are walking on the broad road to destruction!!

 

[JaumeJ]

The Father gave me a message in a dream the night before I was to receive the Holy Spirit. I believe your vision. Keep those eyes looking forward, anad I will try to do the same. All love in Jesus, Yeshua, j.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Read all of Deut 29-30.

It teaches that ancient Israel didn't have the spiritual equipment needed to obey God.

Deuteronomy 29:4 4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.
(ESV Strong's)

Notice that this heart to understand, eyes to see, and ears to hear is something given by God. They needed regeneration.

Deuteronomy 30:6 6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
(ESV Strong's)

And, in this verse, Moses prophesies that ancient Israel would receive this heart that it needs to obey God.

By the way, while I disagree with dispensationalists and premillennialists, I do agree that a great number of Israelites will be saved just prior to Jesus' return.

 

[NOV25]

No, a man’s will is given, programmed if you will. Man born after the fall is wired for sin, his nature is sin, less he’s been granted faith unto salvation and given a new nature, a new will. At which point the Lord begins a work in him that He will finish, a work of subduing the fallen nature and building up the new nature, the new will, to be about the Fathers business. Either way a man’s will is not his own, this according to scripture that we may see the hand of the Lord and the miraculous work He performs in transforming one who is dead in sin to one who is alive in Christ.

 

[John146]

No, a man’s will is given, programmed if you will. Man born after the fall is wired for sin, his nature is sin, less he’s been granted faith unto salvation and given a new nature, a new will. At which point the Lord begins a work in him that He will finish, a work of subduing the fallen nature and building up the new nature, the new will, to be about the Fathers business. Either way a man’s will is not his own, this according to scripture that we may see the hand of the Lord and the miraculous work He performs in transforming one who is dead in sin to one who is alive in Christ.

We don’t choose to sin? Where’s the accountability?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

We don’t choose to sin? Where’s the accountability?

haven't you heard? (of course you have but anyway)

Calvinists have created this dodgy belief system that God creates people for hell

amazing isn't it?

even though the Bible plainly and clearly teaches that the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels, dyed in the wool Calvinists will tell you God creates humans for the lake as well....clearly against scripture

but what the hey ho....they are the special chosen after all while the rest of us ask for mercy and forgiveness, they have themselves crashing to the front of the line on motorized clouds of perfection

 

[Whispered]

We don’t choose to sin? Where’s the accountability?

Isn't everyone accountable to Gods rules?

 

[Whispered]

Free Will: Does Salvation Depend on a Person's Choice?

At the time of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther wrote a book entitled, The Bondage of the Will. This book was written against a man named Erasmus and his teaching that man has free-will, that is, the ability to choose whether or not he would be saved. Luther told Erasmus that this question about free-will was the most important issue of the Reformation. He said, "You [i.e., Erasmus] have not worried me with extraneous issues about the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, and such like, trifles rather than issues ... you, and you alone, have seen the hinge on which all turns, and have aimed for the vital spot."

In spite of what Luther wrote, the teaching of Erasmus concerning free-will has become the teaching of most of Protestantism today. Free-will is:

(1) A denial of predestination. Predestination means that God's will (God's choice) determines all things, including who will be saved (Ephesians 1:3-6). Free-will teaches that man's choice is the decisive thing in salvation.

(2) A denial of the biblical truth that saving faith is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10). Free-will teaches that faith is a person's own decision to trust in Christ.

(3) A denial of the truth that Christ died only for His people (Matthew 1:21). Free-will teaches that Christ died for all without exception and that their salvation now depends on their accepting Him, that is, on their "free-will" choice.

Belief in free-will also shows itself in the kind of preaching and evangelism that is most popular today, the kind that begs sinners to accept Christ, that uses altar calls, appeals, decision times, raising of hands, and other such tactics to persuade them to do so. All these things presuppose that a person's salvation depends on his own choice.

We believe that man's will is in bondage to sin and that he not only cannot do good, but he cannot even want (will) to do it (Romans 8:7-8). Especially he cannot do the greatest good of all, of choosing God and Christ.

We believe, therefore, that man cannot believe in Christ unless it is "given him from above" (John 6:44).

We also believe that not man's will, but God's sovereign and eternal will (predestination) is the decisive thing in salvation (Acts 13:48; Philippians 2:13).

What, then, is the point of preaching the gospel to all? It is "the power of God unto salvation" (Romans 1:16), the way in which God gives faith and repentance to all those whom He has chosen from eternity and redeemed in Christ. May it be that power unto salvation for many!

The Reformation ResurgenceView attachment 213144

Some traditions are really giving God very little credit for being God. You're born condemned to be a sinner when we arrive at the age of being accountable for our own free choices. But we're told we're incapable of choosing not to sin, choosing God, even though we are told we choose to sin because it is part of our human nature.
Then we're told we'll suffer everlasting punishment dying as we are; born sinners, condemned to suffer eternally for being one.
Then we're told all of that changes if God decides to let us have the conscious awareness of our fate and coinciding with that, gives us the ability then and only then to save ourselves by believing in the one that, had He not intervened, made us to die condemned.
That never stops sounding elitist to me. "We're special (the elect. So named because God predestined the whole thing) and saved not by our own will nor choice, but because God changed what we were born as so we could be saved from what He preplanned for those He didn't choose to save.

That sounds like elitist men not God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You do not make a choice to go through the gate.

How can you say that when everyone makes a choice to go through any gate? I am sure you have never been compelled to go through any gate. No one is compelled to do so.

And the words of Christ are plain enough, "Enter ye" means YOU ENTER IN AT THE STRAIT (NARROW) GATE. In Luke Jesus says YOU MUST STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate.

The Gospel is to be preached to every creature. But every person must respond to the Gospel after the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit.

WHAT SHALL WE DO TO BE SAVED? ACTS 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[Note: Faith in Christ is implied in "repent"]

 

[7seasrekeyed]

God gave me a sort of vision, the second year I was a Christian, using Matt 7:13-14. He told me that before, I was on that broad road to destruction, before he saved me. He gave me the desire to repent, or turn around, and then I was in the narrow road which leads to life, or God. I've spent some time on that road sitting, a few times I looked back, and was horrified to see so many people walking eagerly towards hell, but mostly, like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress, I have tried to move forward. The reason, is because I see a bright light ahead, which I know is Jesus.

Jesus saved me, set me on the path, and we have been walking together, for 40 years this May. You do not make a choice to go through the gate. God makes us alive in him, and gives us the ability to repent and follow him. No need for decisional regeneration at all. And lots more reasons to testify and preach the gospel to those who are walking on the broad road to destruction!!

that's interesting since you basically discredit what others state about God speaking to them