Does man have a libertarian free will?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Well you ought to study how God relented destroying Israel and raising up a people through Moses because Moses interceded on behalf of those people.

I do not expect you to understand the will of God. Yours is a fatalistic view and not one of hope.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Moses was typological of Jesus, who intercedes for his people continually at the throne of God.

Do you not know this?

Moses led Israel out of bondage to Egypt.

Jesus leads the Church out of bondage to sin.

Try reading Hebrews. One portion talks about how Jesus is "better than" Moses. In fact, the whole theme of Hebrews is about Jesus being "better than" all the other characters of ancient Israel. Some were inferior types of Jesus, and this includes Moses.

God knew that Moses would intercede for Israel. God was busy sanctifying and transforming Moses' character through this incident. He was being conformed to the image of Christ, in essence. The event was a growth experience for Moses, as well as demonstrating this typology for the savvy Bible reader.

God knew all along that Moses would intercede, just like Jesus does on a constant basis, because 1) God was shaping him through this event and 2) God knows the future exhaustively.

Of course, I realize that free-willers often try to twist God into some anthropomorphic (man-like) creature that doesn't know the future. That is part of their extremely heretical open-theism and process theology views.

I am surprised at the lack of understanding amongst free-willers, but I shouldn't be, as part of it involves their inability to view the Bible from an organic perspective. That is one of the reasons I am Reformed.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I covered that point in Post #201 : https://christianchat.com/threads/does-man-have-a-libertarian-free-will.188229/post-4070977


And I asked you directly, if you could address that post, in my post to you, Post #217 (which you haven't... which is not surprising, actually, hate to say ) Just don't try to say that I have "avoided it like the plague"

(I've repeatedly posted that particular post/point [in various threads], and no one ever cares to examine the Scriptures on that! but instead are just content to repeat catch-phrases)

I'm not sure why you think I should take hours to review your posts. They aren't well-structured, and involve presuppositions I don't share, such as dispensationalism a. I don't really care to weed through your stuff.

However, I'm just going to put you on ignore. It isn't that I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you, but I don't have time to sort through your logic in the manner that you attempt to present it.

Yet you take it for granted that I'm going to review everything you post, and make references to posts you've created long ago. You seem to think people should hang onto every word you post.

 

[notuptome]

Who stirred up the Assyrians to attack Israel in Isaiah 10?
Who stirred up Pul and Tilgath-Pilneser to attack Israel in 1 Chronicles 5:26?

God was just as active in the crucifixion of His Son as He is in saving the elect.

God as our Father chastens us because He loves us not to cause us harm.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

The history of Israel show over and over again that God moved to restore Israel and that their election was only when they believed.

Christ went to the cross for the joy that was set before Him. It pleased the Father to bruise Him on our behalf. God withheld nothing and will receive all who are willing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God as our Father chastens us because He loves us not to cause us harm.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

The history of Israel show over and over again that God moved to restore Israel and that their election was only when they believed.

Christ went to the cross for the joy that was set before Him. It pleased the Father to bruise Him on our behalf. God withheld nothing and will receive all who are willing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Again...who stirred up the Assyrians to attack Israel in Isaiah 10?
Who stirred up Pul and Tilgath-Pilneser to attack Israel in 1 Chronicles 5:26?

You didn’t answer these.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

God was just as active in hardening ppl’s hearts as […]

Of course He is.

But this is not the point being discussed (and I'm not even referring to the concept of "hardening" when I say this! That's not what I mean when I say this is "not the point being discussed" ).

[For example, I have spoken of John 12:32 a number of times (even in this thread)]

But why would you say a heart even needs to be "hardened" when it is already "a stone" from conception/birth, according to the viewpoint being put forth? (again, may the reader note the CONTEXTS of: Ezek11:4-21,19 ; 36:21-38,26 ; Zech7:8-14,12[and chpt 8]--ALL about "ISRAEL" who'd already had some history behind them)

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God as our Father chastens us because He loves us not to cause us harm.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

The history of Israel show over and over again that God moved to restore Israel and that their election was only when they believed.

Christ went to the cross for the joy that was set before Him. It pleased the Father to bruise Him on our behalf. God withheld nothing and will receive all who are willing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No disagreement with your last line, but what makes them willing?

Regeneration. Regeneration changes the nature so the person is willing.

And, it is 100% effective. No one will be saved without being regenerated and that is why they respond in faith and repentance.

Additionally, we believe God chastens every son that he loves, too. Sons.

The rest of mankind does not fall under the covering of Christ, and is subject to his wrath and condemnation.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God as our Father chastens us because He loves us not to cause us harm.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

The history of Israel show over and over again that God moved to restore Israel and that their election was only when they believed.

Christ went to the cross for the joy that was set before Him. It pleased the Father to bruise Him on our behalf. God withheld nothing and will receive all who are willing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yeah, just like God chastened the Amalekites in 1 Samuel 15 by ordering the Israelites to wipe them off the face of the earth.

 

[notuptome]

Moses was typological of Jesus, who intercedes for his people continually at the throne of God.

Do you not know this?

Moses led Israel out of bondage to Egypt.

Jesus leads the Church out of bondage to sin.

Try reading Hebrews. One portion talks about how Jesus is "better than" Moses. In fact, the whole theme of Hebrews is about Jesus being "better than" all the other characters of ancient Israel. Some were inferior types of Jesus, and this includes Moses.

God knew that Moses would intercede for Israel. God was busy sanctifying and transforming Moses' character through this incident. He was being conformed to the image of Christ, in essence. The event was a growth experience for Moses, as well as demonstrating this typology for the savvy Bible reader.

God knew all along that Moses would intercede, just like Jesus does on a constant basis, because 1) God was shaping him through this event and 2) God knows the future exhaustively.

Of course, I realize that free-willers often try to twist God into some anthropomorphic (man-like) creature that doesn't know the future. That is part of their extremely heretical open-theism and process theology views.

I am surprised at the lack of understanding amongst free-willers, but I shouldn't be, as part of it involves their inability to view the Bible from an organic perspective. That is one of the reasons I am Reformed.

Never said God did not know the future. You and I do not know the future but trust Gods word for the future. You still over look the plain fact that God was of a mind to destroy Israel and raise up a new people through Moses. Did Moses change the will of God? Could Moses have chosen to allow God to proceed to destroy Moses? God would have been perfectly righteous to destroy Adam and remove sin from the world in the garden. It is the sovereign will of God that man should choose between good and evil if it were not so God would have changed it long ago.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Of course He is.

But this is not the point being discussed (and I'm not even referring to the concept of "hardening" when I say this! That's not what I mean when I say this is "not the point being discussed" ).

[For example, I have spoken of John 12:32 a number of times (even in this thread)]

But why would you say a heart even needs to be "hardened" when it is already "a stone" from conception/birth, according to the viewpoint being put forth?

I will gladly answer this later, okay? I need to get some sleep. I work night shift and haven’t been in the bed yet. Plus my iPad is down to 3% charge.

 

[notuptome]

No disagreement with your last line, but what makes them willing?

Regeneration. Regeneration changes the nature so the person is willing.

And, it is 100% effective. No one will be saved without being regenerated and that is why they respond in faith and repentance.

Additionally, we believe God chastens every son that he loves, too. Sons.

The rest of mankind does not fall under the covering of Christ, and is subject to his wrath and condemnation.

You have the cart before the horse. We are quickened by the Holy Spirit which is the washing of regeneration the moment we believe not before.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Yeah, just like God chastened the Amalekites in 1 Samuel 15 by ordering the Israelites to wipe them off the face of the earth.

The Amalekites did not believe in Jehovah. They rejected Gods word and served idols. They chose idols over the Living God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You have the cart before the horse. We are quickened by the Holy Spirit which is the washing of regeneration the moment we believe not before.

Agreed!


____________

Good "night" Sackcloth-N-Ashes, rest well!


PS, I'd added : (again, may the reader note the CONTEXTS of: Ezek11:4-21,19 ; 36:21-38,26 ; Zech7:8-14,12[and chpt 8]--ALL about "ISRAEL" who'd already had some history behind them)

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You have the cart before the horse. We are quickened by the Holy Spirit which is the washing of regeneration the moment we believe not before.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

In other words, you believe that a heart of stone can generate faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh.



No. God regenerates the person, giving them the heart of flesh that is necessary to respond in faith and repentance.

All the benefits of the atonement are applied at this point, from beginning to end. And there is no room for boasting.

I hate to break it to those guys who gleamed with pride when their Sunday school teacher showered praise on them for accepting Jesus into their little child hearts, both failing to glorify God in their defective theologies.

 

[notuptome]

In other words, you believe that a heart of stone can generate faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh.



No. God regenerates the person, giving them the heart of flesh that is necessary to respond in faith and repentance.

All the benefits of the atonement are applied at this point, from beginning to end. And there is no room for boasting.

I hate to break it to those guys who gleamed with pride when their Sunday school teacher showered praise on them for accepting Jesus into their little child hearts, both failing to glorify God in their defective theologies.

In all your great theological wisdom I should have thought you able to distinguish between figurative and literal language in the bible.

If God operated as you claim He does everything would have been consummated millennia ago.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Never said God did not know the future. You and I do not know the future but trust Gods word for the future. You still over look the plain fact that God was of a mind to destroy Israel and raise up a new people through Moses. Did Moses change the will of God? Could Moses have chosen to allow God to proceed to destroy Moses? God would have been perfectly righteous to destroy Adam and remove sin from the world in the garden. It is the sovereign will of God that man should choose between good and evil if it were not so God would have changed it long ago.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

He not only knows the future; he works within the believer to transform him and to cause him to will and to do his good pleasure.

Philippians 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Don't you think he was doing that with Moses?

You have a very limited view of how God is working with man, due to your free-willer theology.

I don't know if you have kids, but did you ever test your children's progress through situations?

God was working within Moses, who was a type of Jesus, and displaying his intercessor qualities for all who read to see. He knew exactly what Moses would do. He knows it, because he was working within Moses to create these qualities.

I don't really see how free-willers could be oblivious to the obvious typology and implications of it.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In all your great theological wisdom I should have thought you able to distinguish between figurative and literal language in the bible.

If God operated as you claim He does everything would have been consummated millennia ago.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

How so, seeing as some of his elect may not even be born yet? How could God consummate his plan of redemption, with all the means that he has planned in advance, if the fullness of time has not been reached to utilize them?

Or, are you back to the same old canard that God doesn't use means to accomplish the end, and does not have his own timeline?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You have the cart before the horse. We are quickened by the Holy Spirit which is the washing of regeneration the moment we believe not before.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

By the way, I have no issue with regeneration occurring at the very moment of belief, or T- 1 millisecond with T being the point of faith and repentance, but logically the regeneration occurs prior to faith and repentance, because the heart of flesh is the cause.

And the man has a heart of stone until the moment of regeneration. Faith and repentance cannot be regenerated from it.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In all your great theological wisdom I should have thought you able to distinguish between figurative and literal language in the bible.

If God operated as you claim He does everything would have been consummated millennia ago.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

My point is that both should be glorifying God if they have a proper theology, not the child or themselves.

I imagine many free willer Sunday school teachers cut a notch on their six guns whenever this occurs, as if it is some accomplishment of theirs, without thinking about glorifying God for the kid's salvation, or teaching the child to glorify him.

 

[notuptome]

How so, seeing as some of his elect may not even be born yet? How could God consummate his plan of redemption, with all the means that he has planned in advance, if the fullness of time has not been reached to utilize them?

Or, are you back to the same old canard that God doesn't use means to accomplish the end, and does not have his own timeline?

Hearts of stone literal or figurative language?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

My point is that both should be glorifying God if they have a proper theology, not the child or themselves.

I imagine many free willer Sunday school teachers cut a notch on their six guns whenever this occurs, as if it is some accomplishment of theirs, without thinking about glorifying God for the kid's salvation, or teaching the child to glorify him.

You have an attitude of suspicion. Likely because you cannot trust yourself. You accuse people of doing what your heart desires to do.

Adam had free will to sin against God. Man has a responsibility to choose to receive Christ as Savior because man cannot save himself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger