Does man have a libertarian free will?
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7seasrekeyed
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I would like to understand how God can love sinners so much He sends His only Son to die in our place, but takes joy and glee in creating a whole other class to feed the fire
that is not a loving God
Calvinists portray a false portrait of God in their own image
I will never understand this view because it is demonic and needs no explanation
God is not double minded and does not create sin nor those who sin with no hope of salvation
Calvinists response: “Are we to question God? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?”
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
Calvinists response: “Are we to question God? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?”
right
they are not responsible for anything
helpless little beings to the point God gives them a pass while everyone else must repent and believe
Yes a number in that parable signified by the word; hundred and forty four thousand the chaste virgin bride, the church.
The number no man could count.
The fallen man is a slave to sin, according to Scripture. Read John 8, Romans 6.
But, the Reformed position would be that he freely sins because of his sinful nature. Nature determines behavior. Before salvation, he has a nature that is sinful, and afterwards has been regenerated and has a new nature that wants to pursue God and wants to please him. Obedience is not perfect, but there is a definitive change.
Regardless, though, Adam's sin is imputed to man, and we share corporate guilt for Adam's sin per Romans 5. Many free-willers deny this because it doesn't meet their sense of what is right and what is wrong.
By the way, Romans 9 answers your question. And the answer is, who are you, oh man?
God has definitely consigned everyone over to disobedience, according to Romans 11.
Just for other's information, Pelagians actually deny that man has a sin nature at birth, and this has been consistently condemned as heretical by all Christians. In fact, some of them have even claimed that there have been sinless humans throughout history. Pelagians are not considered Christians.
Calvinists response: “Are we to question God? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?”
It isn't just Calvinists. Arminius understood total depravity, and did not deny original sin.
In fact, you are basically believing non-Christian doctrine.
And, the Reformed position is simply biblical. You are just quoting Romans 9 so, claiming it is just a Reformed position is amusing.
Here it is post 326...
“By the way, Romans 9 answers your question. And the answer is, who are you, oh man?”
The Calvinist private interpretation of Romans 9 is what’s amusing.
It's not a private interpretation..it is simply what Scripture says..but I know that the free willer cannot tolerate this sort of doctrine.
You know, before I became a cultist and a free-willer, I read the Bible and clearly understood election and Reformed theology even before I knew anything about the Reformed movement.
Then the cultist pastor convinced me of open theism and free-willer nonsense.
After I was led out of the cult, I attended groups that still tended to believe free-willer nonsense, only with the concept of justification by faith alone, eternal security and imputed righteousness. But, they still denied that faith is a specific gift given to the believer.
It's only been in the last six years that I encountered Reformed people and learned better theology. It's amazing how little I really understood about Scripture as a free-willer. There are large sections of Scripture that simply do not make sense in a free-willer context.
I've mentioned one section multiple times and NONE of you guys have endeavored to provide an exegesis of it.
This section is 1 Cor 1:26ff.
Everytime I've brought it up, no one has tried to exegete it from a free-willer perspective. That is because they CAN'T.
It is apparent God chooses specific individuals, with less-than-noble characteristics, for salvation, so that his glory can be shown through them more plainly. God repeats that He chose these individuals 3 different times..and he uses salvation language in this context, so it is unmistakeably talking about salvation.
And that pretty well destroys free-willer theology.
And then, you have to deal with John 6, 8, 10, Romans 1-11, and Ephesians 1.
To be honest, I don't see how you guys even read the Bible and make any sense of it in your worldview.
I guess if you're some kind of proof-texter who ignores the surrounding verses and chapters, you might somehow come up with free-willer theology.
By the way, I think it's pretty funny when you guys quote John 3:16 like it's the ultimate silver bullet to Reformed theology.
The problem with your approach in regards to this is that the Reformed know that everyone who believes will be saved..the issue is what causes belief? We believe that God regenerates the person, and causes him to believe and to repent by giving him a new heart. You believe somehow the man with a stony heart dredges up faith and repentance from it.
So, this idea that "whosoever" is a silver bullet to Reformed theology is amusing
It really shows how ignorant free-willers are, when they refer to John 3:16.There’s the problem...causing one to believe is not belief at all. That goes against everything concerning the word believe.
It would seem to work the other way around. The pass is the power enabling them to repent. (comfort one self)
Believing, having heard then turned, and in turn comfort one self that one had acted childish denying doing the will of our loving Father as by grace he calls us.
It is the work of the unseen God working in us. Jesus said to the disciples .It is the work of God working in us that we can believe him not seen . The law of repentance is given in a parable below.
Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.Surely "after" that I was turned, I repented; and "after" that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
Two comforting turnings. (one) Christ who cannot deny the elect turns comforts himself and (2)calls, turning the person back .You could say both comforted by the work of Christs suffering
2 Timothy 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
God changes the nature of the person, giving him a living heart of flesh to replace the stony, dead heart that he possesses. This causes belief. If you want to say, this leads to belief, go ahead. It's the same thing.
The free-willer view claims that the man must produce belief from a heart which is stony and unbelieving. This isn't going to happen.
I've already said this dozens of times and will keep saying it
Decisional regeneration (causing your own regeneration through a free will decision) is simply faulty theology. It puts the cart before the horse.Word we believe.
What word? The word as to the letter of the law that was made to no effect by the oral tradition of spirit of lies:"You shall surely not die".
unconverted mankind having no faith that comes from hearing God. No way or desire to seek after the things of God not seen . The Spirit of Christ reveals its one way ....as it is written with it representing the unseen faith of Christ, in God.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Romans 3:10-11
It helps answer the question in the beginning of the chapter . What if some hear it as it is written and do not believe Him not seen ?
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judgedRomans 3: 3-4
Glad you mentioned the cart before the horse. Let’s see the order in Scripture.
Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
1. Hear the gospel
2. Believe/trust the gospel
3. Receive the Holy Spirit which is God’s seal
We've already been through this.
There is a difference between the sealing of the Holy Spirit and the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration comes before faith and repentance. In fact, it causes faith and repentance.
Being sealed by the Holy Spirit follows faith and repentance.
In your theology, apparently those two are the same thing. Not with us, though.
By the way, aren't you the open theist guy? Are you Pelagian too?
I am not sure because there are so many free-willers on here.
Soooo, you’re saying one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before they believe, but the Holy Spirit hasn’t sealed them yet? Awkward.
This? Nope. Adam’s sin has given us a nature to sin. We will eventually all choose sin. Lost people can choose good. Referring to salvation, the Holy Spirit leads a man through the hearing of God’s word. It is then man’s decision to choose to receive or reject Christ.
Pelagianism, also called the Pelagian heresy, is the Christian theological position that the original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid or assistance.