Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Logically speaking, either one of us is wrong or both of us are wrong. We both cannot be right.
Thanks, same here. I know how these things go. People -rarely- change their beliefs from participation on an internet forum. You just have to go with the flow.
Jesus died for the sins of the world, as everyone died or is going to die except anyone other than Jesus died/s for their own sin. Jesus' death is exception in that, going by the law, He should have never died.
I hesitate to agree to the simplicity of the answers you've suggested.
Jesus died for the sins of the world, as everyone died or is going to die except that anyone other than Jesus died/s because of their own sin. Jesus' death is an exception in that, if going by the law, He should have never died. Is God just in that He required Jesus to die? I suppose, somehow, He must be even if it doesn't seem so at the surface and any quick answer would seem presumptuously premature.
I hesitate to agree to the simplicity of the answers you've suggested.
Jesus died for the sins of the world, as everyone died or is going to die except that anyone other than Jesus died/s because of their own sin. Jesus' death is an exception in that, if going by the law, He should have never died. Is God just in that He required Jesus to die? I suppose, somehow, He must be even if it doesn't seem so at the surface and any quick answer would seem presumptuously premature.
Jesus is a remarkable being. Words fail in human language to do Him justice. But His death is about the assurance that sins were laid to His account. As you have alluded, He Himself committed no sin. So in order for Him to die, sin had to be imputed to Him.
His death isn't a matter of justice, but the greatest demonstration of love that will ever be done. I love the lines from many songs which speak to this:
Amazing love, how can it be
That Thou, my God hast died for me?
See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down.
Did ere' such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?
God was never under any obligation to save anyone who has sinned. But, in choosing to do so, He had to do so in accordance with Who He is.
The particular aspect of His justice demanded payment for sin...the soul that sinneth shall surely die. Subsequent revelation has revealed this payment to be an eternity in a place of torment.
It is just of God to allow a substitute for any sinner as long as the substitute paid all that was owed. Since only an eternal being can pay an eternal punishment, the substitute by necessity would need to be God Himself. And that's the very promise God made to Abraham...God will provide Himself a lamb...Gen 22:8.
I never intended to write so much, but I believe when God acts, He does so in accordance with who He is. So when one says that God is just and that He paid for everyone's sin I don't see any inconsistency. But when I understand that there people who are paying for sins that have already been paid for, I do not understand how that is just. And since I know that God is just, I find it inconsistent for Him to act in this manner.
I'm far from knowing everything...particularly when it comes to God. My own personal sense of mercy far outweighs my desire for justice, and I desire all men to be saved. But I am not encumbered with the immutable attribute of justice. And it is far easier to ignore the issue of justice than to try to explain it. But personally, I don't find compatibility between justice and requiring payment for something already paid for. If people do then that will be reflected in what they believe.
I can't seem to follow your logic, but I think I now see at least one place where our understanding of justice fails to converge. You've understood an eternity in a place of torment as the justice demanded, yet Jesus was not eternally tormented for our sin. He suffered, yes, and then He died...that was the full extent of the payment as I see it. So if you're right, then Jesus didn't entirely pay the penalty and there remains some torment into infinity.
Actually, I believe Jesus did pay any eternity in hell for each believer. That's why it had to God Himself who made the payment. Created beings are not capable of making an eternal payment for themselves, let alone anyone else. Jesus, being God, is able to pay an eternal punishment...even in a short period of time.
If something is still owed, everyone still merits hell.
My intention in participating in these discussions is to characterize an iron by which others may sharpen their wits on. And I cannot begrudge you your conscience if I value the liberty to express my own.
False teaching. This is teaching salvation conditioned on works, the action of a man.
So anything short of "fatalistic determination" - (God zaps certain individuals with saving faith in Christ and they have no choice in the natter) is works salvation according to you? What is your gospel message? Cross your fingers and hope you get zapped? Only a few lucky robots will be saved?
The individual did not want the payment. They desire bondage, the world.
Sure. But you gave a perfectly good answer to a question I didn't ask. Would you care to answer the question I did ask?
Umm... yes that would be Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, whose influence of interpretation (wrongly, I might add) still exists to this day and is ubiquitous.
Whenever we condition salvation on something we do, it's salvation by your works! We officially depart from grace salvation.
So your answer to my questions is YES. You believe that we are simply zapped with saving faith by (fatalistic determination) with no choice in the matter.
op: Does God Desire The Salvation Of ALL mankind?:
Absolutely! And The Precious BLOOD Of The LORD Jesus Christ Is:
ALL-Sufficient For Forgiveness Of ALL sin, receiving God's ETERNAL Salvation!
Condition? simple, humble Full-heart "belief" - some are asking/wondering:
How can A Loving And Merciful God Then Make "those in UNbelief Pay for"
a second time, what has Already Been "Paid For" By Christ, On The Cross?
Is not God A Just God?
Is God’s Mercy not Shown through His Justice?
methinks this may not be answerable to our finite minds until we
meet The Infinite One, and "ask Him In Eternity"? Because Of
"What Saith The Scripture?":
Php_4:6 "Be careful [anxious] for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."
Amen.
I am not worried about "God's Part In all this," just concerned about "my part,"
in faith, pleasing God:
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
Absolutely! And The Precious BLOOD Of The LORD Jesus Christ Is:
ALL-Sufficient For Forgiveness Of ALL sin, receiving God's ETERNAL Salvation!
Condition? simple, humble Full-heart "belief" - some are asking/wondering:
Asking:
How can A Loving And Merciful God Then Make "those in UNbelief Pay for"
a second time, what has Already Been "Paid For" By Christ, On The Cross?
Is not God A Just God?
Isa_45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel
together: Who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it
from that time? have not I The LORD? and there is no God else beside
Me; A Just God And A Saviour; there is none beside Me.
Is God’s Mercy not Shown through His Justice?
methinks this may not be answerable to our finite minds until we
meet The Infinite One, and "ask Him In Eternity"? Because Of
"What Saith The Scripture?":
Isa_55:8 "For My Thoughts are not your thoughts,
Neither are your ways My Ways, Saith The LORD."
Although, there is, in this life?: Php_4:6 "Be careful [anxious] for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."
Amen.
I am not worried about "God's Part In all this," just concerned about "my part,"
in faith, pleasing God:
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
So Jesus died for our sin having no sin of HIs own. He is buried and the test of His righteousness continues as the spirit of death commences in its attempt to hold Him. I'm imagining the spirit of death encompassing His body circumambulating it seeking out a weakness by which it could make claim and then begin its process of decay while becoming increasingly frustrated finding none even after having been given three days to do so.... Certainly, the burial factors into the consideration of the offering, as well as the resurrection is, along with His death.
Amen! After forgiveness, the evil one may "bring my sins up," but I do not
resurrect my sins, Since Christ "LEFT them Behind," Eternally Buried in the tomb!
Hallelujah! RICH Blessings!!
You are right that there are things about an infinite being that a finite mind cannot come to through it's own endeavor. And by definition, infinity comes with no end, so neither will we come to the end of God. And God also says their are secret things which are not disclosed. But He also says it is the honor of kings to search out a matter. And God is disposed to reveal things to His people because in doing so we enjoy Him more and He is glorified in our enjoyment of Him.
So I run as to win leaving the outcome to God.