Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?

[brightfame52]

Did Jesus force you to accept salvation?

I don't know what you talking about.

 

[VARob]

Notwithstanding that this is actually only true of one of us,

Logically speaking, either one of us is wrong or both of us are wrong. We both cannot be right.

I have always appreciated that our discourse has always been respectful.

Thanks, same here. I know how these things go. People -rarely- change their beliefs from participation on an internet forum. You just have to go with the flow.

 

[Mem]

Jesus died for the sins of the world, as everyone died or is going to die except anyone other than Jesus died/s for their own sin. Jesus' death is exception in that, going by the law, He should have never died.

My only intention is truth. I am isolating justice so I can understand God more fully so that I can live a life more glorifying to Him.
That God is just has implications. You mention mercy. Can God forgive sins simply because He is merciful. If He is not just the answer is yes. If the answer is no, then a substitutionary payment is necessary...hence, the cross. Forgiveness of sins is predicated upon the justice of God.
It makes no difference to me whether everyone's sins are paid for or not personally. I'm trying to ask objectively, if God is indeed just, what does that mean?

I hesitate to agree to the simplicity of the answers you've suggested.
Jesus died for the sins of the world, as everyone died or is going to die except that anyone other than Jesus died/s because of their own sin. Jesus' death is an exception in that, if going by the law, He should have never died. Is God just in that He required Jesus to die? I suppose, somehow, He must be even if it doesn't seem so at the surface and any quick answer would seem presumptuously premature.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus died for the sins of the world, as everyone died or is going to die except anyone other than Jesus died/s for their own sin. Jesus' death is exception in that, going by the law, He should have never died.



I hesitate to agree to the simplicity of the answers you've suggested.
Jesus died for the sins of the world, as everyone died or is going to die except that anyone other than Jesus died/s because of their own sin. Jesus' death is an exception in that, if going by the law, He should have never died. Is God just in that He required Jesus to die? I suppose, somehow, He must be even if it doesn't seem so at the surface and any quick answer would seem presumptuously premature.

Jesus is a remarkable being. Words fail in human language to do Him justice. But His death is about the assurance that sins were laid to His account. As you have alluded, He Himself committed no sin. So in order for Him to die, sin had to be imputed to Him.
His death isn't a matter of justice, but the greatest demonstration of love that will ever be done. I love the lines from many songs which speak to this:

Amazing love, how can it be
That Thou, my God hast died for me?

See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down.
Did ere' such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

God was never under any obligation to save anyone who has sinned. But, in choosing to do so, He had to do so in accordance with Who He is.
The particular aspect of His justice demanded payment for sin...the soul that sinneth shall surely die. Subsequent revelation has revealed this payment to be an eternity in a place of torment.
It is just of God to allow a substitute for any sinner as long as the substitute paid all that was owed. Since only an eternal being can pay an eternal punishment, the substitute by necessity would need to be God Himself. And that's the very promise God made to Abraham...God will provide Himself a lamb...Gen 22:8.

I never intended to write so much, but I believe when God acts, He does so in accordance with who He is. So when one says that God is just and that He paid for everyone's sin I don't see any inconsistency. But when I understand that there people who are paying for sins that have already been paid for, I do not understand how that is just. And since I know that God is just, I find it inconsistent for Him to act in this manner.
I'm far from knowing everything...particularly when it comes to God. My own personal sense of mercy far outweighs my desire for justice, and I desire all men to be saved. But I am not encumbered with the immutable attribute of justice. And it is far easier to ignore the issue of justice than to try to explain it. But personally, I don't find compatibility between justice and requiring payment for something already paid for. If people do then that will be reflected in what they believe.

 

[Mem]

Jesus is a remarkable being. Words fail in human language to do Him justice. But His death is about the assurance that sins were laid to His account. As you have alluded, He Himself committed no sin. So in order for Him to die, sin had to be imputed to Him.
His death isn't a matter of justice, but the greatest demonstration of love that will ever be done. I love the lines from many songs which speak to this:

Amazing love, how can it be
That Thou, my God hast died for me?

See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down.
Did ere' such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

God was never under any obligation to save anyone who has sinned. But, in choosing to do so, He had to do so in accordance with Who He is.
The particular aspect of His justice demanded payment for sin...the soul that sinneth shall surely die. Subsequent revelation has revealed this payment to be an eternity in a place of torment.
It is just of God to allow a substitute for any sinner as long as the substitute paid all that was owed. Since only an eternal being can pay an eternal punishment, the substitute by necessity would need to be God Himself. And that's the very promise God made to Abraham...God will provide Himself a lamb...Gen 22:8.

I never intended to write so much, but I believe when God acts, He does so in accordance with who He is. So when one says that God is just and that He paid for everyone's sin I don't see any inconsistency. But when I understand that there people who are paying for sins that have already been paid for, I do not understand how that is just. And since I know that God is just, I find it inconsistent for Him to act in this manner.
I'm far from knowing everything...particularly when it comes to God. My own personal sense of mercy far outweighs my desire for justice, and I desire all men to be saved. But I am not encumbered with the immutable attribute of justice. And it is far easier to ignore the issue of justice than to try to explain it. But personally, I don't find compatibility between justice and requiring payment for something already paid for. If people do then that will be reflected in what they believe.

I can't seem to follow your logic, but I think I now see at least one place where our understanding of justice fails to converge. You've understood an eternity in a place of torment as the justice demanded, yet Jesus was not eternally tormented for our sin. He suffered, yes, and then He died...that was the full extent of the payment as I see it. So if you're right, then Jesus didn't entirely pay the penalty and there remains some torment into infinity.

 

[Cameron143]

I can't seem to follow your logic, but I think I now see at least one place where our understanding of justice fails to converge. You've understood an eternity in a place of torment as the justice demanded, yet Jesus was not eternally tormented for our sin. He suffered, yes, and then He died...that was the full extent of the payment as I see it. So if you're right, then Jesus didn't entirely pay the penalty and there remains some torment into infinity.

Actually, I believe Jesus did pay any eternity in hell for each believer. That's why it had to God Himself who made the payment. Created beings are not capable of making an eternal payment for themselves, let alone anyone else. Jesus, being God, is able to pay an eternal punishment...even in a short period of time.
If something is still owed, everyone still merits hell.

 

[Mem]

Actually, I believe Jesus did pay any eternity in hell for each believer. That's why it had to God Himself who made the payment. Created beings are not capable of making an eternal payment for themselves, let alone anyone else. Jesus, being God, is able to pay an eternal punishment...even in a short period of time.

My intention in participating in these discussions is to characterize an iron by which others may sharpen their wits on. And I cannot begrudge you your conscience if I value the liberty to express my own.

 

[Cameron143]

My intention in participating in these discussions is to characterize an iron by which others may sharpen their wits on. And I cannot begrudge you your conscience if I value the liberty to express my own.

That may be the nicest way of saying you disagree with my sentiments I have had the pleasure to experience.

 

[brightfame52]

The Gift of salvation
And the (payment) atoning blood of Jesus Christ
Are there for us to accept/receive at the point of repentance/a contrite heart.

Satan will certainly accuse God if he does not give us a choice.

God is a gentleman, he does not force his gift on anyone.

False teaching. This is teaching salvation conditioned on works, the action of a man.

 

[mailmandan]

False teaching. This is teaching salvation conditioned on works, the action of a man.

So anything short of "fatalistic determination" - (God zaps certain individuals with saving faith in Christ and they have no choice in the natter) is works salvation according to you? What is your gospel message? Cross your fingers and hope you get zapped? Only a few lucky robots will be saved?

 

[John146]

I got that part.
Now I'm asking about justice. If I borrow $100 dollars and the terms of repayment are that the loan is repayed in a week or I go to jail. Both parties agree. Someone during that time repays the loan on my behalf so the terms of the agreement are fulfilled. Would it be just if I am still put in jail?

The individual did not want the payment. They desire bondage, the world.

 

[Cameron143]

The individual did not want the payment. They desire bondage, the world.

Sure. But you gave a perfectly good answer to a question I didn't ask. Would you care to answer the question I did ask?

 

[HeIsHere]

Untrue. Bible is not Calvinism. The contextual scripture teachings are not made void by the false accusations of Calvinism.

By the by, John Calvin was preceded by others who rightly divided the word of truth.

It's Bible not Calvin.

Umm... yes that would be Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, whose influence of interpretation (wrongly, I might add) still exists to this day and is ubiquitous.

 

[brightfame52]

So anything short of "fatalistic determination" - (God zaps certain individuals with saving faith in Christ and they have no choice in the natter) is works salvation according to you? What is your gospel message? Cross your fingers and hope you get zapped? Only a few lucky robots will be saved?

Whenever we condition salvation on something we do, it's salvation by your works! We officially depart from grace salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Whenever we condition salvation on something we do, it's salvation by your works! We officially depart from grace salvation.

So your answer to my questions is YES. You believe that we are simply zapped with saving faith by (fatalistic determination) with no choice in the matter.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

op: Does God Desire The Salvation Of ALL mankind?:
Absolutely! And The Precious BLOOD Of The LORD Jesus Christ Is:

ALL-Sufficient For Forgiveness Of ALL sin, receiving God's ETERNAL Salvation!
Condition? simple, humble Full-heart "belief" - some are asking/wondering:

I think a deep dive is needed on this.

I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong.

Asking:

How can A Loving And Merciful God Then Make "those in UNbelief Pay for"
a second time, what has Already Been "Paid For" By Christ, On The Cross?

Is not God A Just God?

Isa_45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel​

together: Who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it​

from that time? have not I The LORD? and there is no God else beside​

Me; A Just God And A Saviour; there is none beside Me.​

Is God’s Mercy not Shown through His Justice?

methinks this may not be answerable to our finite minds until we
meet The Infinite One, and "ask Him In Eternity"? Because Of
"What Saith The Scripture?":

Isa_55:8 "For My Thoughts are not your thoughts,​

Neither are your ways My Ways, Saith The LORD."​

​

Although, there is, in this life?:

Php_4:6 "Be careful [anxious] for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."

Amen.

I am not worried about "God's Part In all this," just concerned about "my part,"
in faith, pleasing God:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

 

[Mem]

So Jesus died for our sin having no sin of HIs own. He is buried and the test of His righteousness continues as the spirit of death commences in its attempt to hold Him. I'm imagining the spirit of death encompassing His body circumambulating it seeking out a weakness by which it could make claim and then begin its process of decay while becoming increasingly frustrated finding none even after having been given three days to do so.... Certainly, the burial factors into the consideration of the offering, as well as the resurrection is, along with His death.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Certainly, the burial factors into the consideration of the offering

Amen! After forgiveness, the evil one may "bring my sins up," but I do not
resurrect my sins, Since Christ "LEFT them Behind," Eternally Buried in the tomb!

Hallelujah! RICH Blessings!!

 

[Cameron143]

op: Does God Desire The Salvation Of ALL mankind?:
Absolutely! And The Precious BLOOD Of The LORD Jesus Christ Is:

ALL-Sufficient For Forgiveness Of ALL sin, receiving God's ETERNAL Salvation!
Condition? simple, humble Full-heart "belief" - some are asking/wondering:


Asking:

How can A Loving And Merciful God Then Make "those in UNbelief Pay for"
a second time, what has Already Been "Paid For" By Christ, On The Cross?

Is not God A Just God?

Isa_45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel​

together: Who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it​

from that time? have not I The LORD? and there is no God else beside​

Me; A Just God And A Saviour; there is none beside Me.​

Is God’s Mercy not Shown through His Justice?

methinks this may not be answerable to our finite minds until we
meet The Infinite One, and "ask Him In Eternity"? Because Of
"What Saith The Scripture?":

Isa_55:8 "For My Thoughts are not your thoughts,​

Neither are your ways My Ways, Saith The LORD."​

​

Although, there is, in this life?:

Php_4:6 "Be careful [anxious] for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."

Amen.

I am not worried about "God's Part In all this," just concerned about "my part,"
in faith, pleasing God:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

You are right that there are things about an infinite being that a finite mind cannot come to through it's own endeavor. And by definition, infinity comes with no end, so neither will we come to the end of God. And God also says their are secret things which are not disclosed. But He also says it is the honor of kings to search out a matter. And God is disposed to reveal things to His people because in doing so we enjoy Him more and He is glorified in our enjoyment of Him.
So I run as to win leaving the outcome to God.

 

[brightfame52]

So your answer to my questions is YES. You believe that we are simply zapped with saving faith by (fatalistic determination) with no choice in the matter.

You see what I posted!