Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

[Noteworthy]

The only bias I have is a bias for truth.

I started out with a preconceived idea the pre-tribulation rapture was true. This was mainly because I'd been listening to a bunch of "great minds" who said it true. When I decided to listen to the other side with an open mind and just see what the scriptures actually say about, my mind was changed and I saw the pre-trib position for what it is—a man-made idea.

I'm still open to what pre-tribbers have to say, but so far I haven't heard a convincing argument.

Understood. We believers should never stop learning, studying, growing in faith or seeking The Lord with all our heart, mind and strength. No matter what anyone, or any great mind says, the Scriptures are the final authority. We adhere to The Word of God and the apostles teaching. Which is why we all should strive to share scripture as evidence for what we believe. I hope I have done that clearly.

The rapture is announced by a trumpet call. Trumpets serve two purposes in Hebrew culture. To call to worship or to sound the alarm. There is no trumpet at any other point in Revelation to call the saints home, other than the trumpet in Revelation 4.

Glory to God in the highest.

 

[CS1]

You know there are two ways to be part of the Pretrib Rapture

1. die today you miss the great trib, there is not one day promised to any of us you must be ready today.

2. Jesus calls us up.

There is a great percentage one will die before the Rapture the argument will mean nothing IF today is your last day

 

[ResidentAlien]

The rapture is announced by a trumpet call. Trumpets serve two purposes in Hebrew culture. To call to worship or to sound the alarm. There is no trumpet at any other point in Revelation to call the saints home, other than the trumpet in Revelation 4.

This belief has been a staple of pre-tribbers for a long time. It's so ridiculous I'm a little surprised to hear someone even use it. The trumpet in Revelation 4 isn't the rapture. It's not even close to the rapture. This is one one of those man-made traditions that has been passed on and accepted buy the gullible.

 

[GaryA]

I started out with a preconceived idea the pre-tribulation rapture was true. This was mainly because I'd been listening to a bunch of "great minds" who said it true.

A bunch of "great minds" with a lot of "great imagination" - right?

 

[CS1]

This belief has been a staple of pre-tribbers for a long time. It's so ridiculous I'm a little surprised to hear someone even use it. The trumpet in Revelation 4 isn't the rapture. It's not even close to the rapture. This is one one of those man-made traditions that has been passed on and accepted buy the gullible.

just show the church after chapter four

and tell me that the chapter in the book of Revelation events is not happening, many of them at the same time as other events are happening?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Consider also:

"After this [after these--plural] I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously [/first] heard speak to me like a trumpet [back in chpt 1:10,12,13,17, where Jesus SAID of Himself "I AM the FIRST and the LAST"] was [now] saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” " - Revelation 4:1 bsb


"because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first," - 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ylt

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is your problem right here. You start from a false premise—a premise you no doubt picked up from some "great" scholar—and base everything else off of it rather than simply letting the scripture speak for itself.

Hello RA,

It is not a false premise. I am giving you the scriptural reasons as to why the church cannot go through God's wrath. Regarding Christ Isaiah says the following:

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows;

yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.

But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

===============================================================================

Is the above a false premise? Either the punishment (God's wrath) brought us peace or it didn't! And since we know that it did bring us peace, then we have been reconciled to God through faith in Christ, because God's wrath was already satisfied by the Lord. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. That is not a false premise!

It is also paramount to understanding that there is a difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would experience because of our faith vs. God's coming wrath. It is the latter that we are not appointed to suffer.

By the way, I do not quote scholars or theologians, but I have always done my own studies and will continue to do so. Therefore, everything that I am posting is from my studies in the word of God and not the writings of other men on the word of God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The only bias I have is a bias for truth.

I started out with a preconceived idea the pre-tribulation rapture was true. This was mainly because I'd been listening to a bunch of "great minds" who said it true. When I decided to listen to the other side with an open mind and just see what the scriptures actually say about, my mind was changed and I saw the pre-trib position for what it is—a man-made idea.

I'm still open to what pre-tribbers have to say, but so far I haven't heard a convincing argument.

So by believing the above, you are saying that you do not believe that Jesus satisfied God's wrath on our behalf and that His appearing is not imminent.

The gathering of the church prior to God's wrath being poured out, is not a "man-made idea." It is from scriptural deduction that we under this. As Abraham understood and proclaimed to the Lord, "Far be it from You to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike." This is exactly what the Lord would be doing if He poured out His wrath upon the righteous and wicked alike. Surely you can understand this. And since the majority of the earth's population will be killed by the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then the church cannot be on the earth during the time of His wrath.

The Lord does not punish the righteous with the wicked and will therefore remove the church from the earth prior to said wrath.

 

[rayzor]

what is the part about god getting revenge for the saints?&Like get out of her so you are punished with her.And that god will pay her back double for what she did two the saints?Is that dif?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This question is for the pre-trib folks.

Got any answers?

["pre-tribbers" are not ignoring your question, GaryA ]



I addressed that point back in my Post #239 --a post directed to you, even --(under the 4th of 6 "bullet points" I made in that post):

https://christianchat.com/threads/documentary—7-pretrib-problems-and-the-prewrath-rapture.200942/post-4637780

[...] (parallel SEAL #5) "[Matt24:9] Then shall they deliver YOU [tho being believers-in-Me] up to be afflicted, and shall KILL YOU [tho being believers-in-Me]; and YE [believers-in-Me] shall be hated of all the nations FOR MY NAME'S SAKE"--My view is, just because the SEALS are included in the time-period involving "wrath" does NOT mean that God's wrath is directly against ALL who will EXIST on the earth during that time-period (many people will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"

[Lk21:36 applies directly TO THEM, being DURING those Trib yrs], and they will indeed "suffer" many things during that specific, future, LIMITED time-period); IOW, ALL of Matt24:3-Matt25 is covering what will occur FOLLOWING "our Rapture";

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"the beginning of birth PANGS" / "SEALS" (they are equivalent) are included in what Rev1:1 calls "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1]

(NOT things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 years, as the Historicist viewpoint has it)






[1Th5:2-3 the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... this is the "ARRIVAL" of the DOTL time-period... Jesus spoke of this in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ('a certain one' bringing deception)--i.e. SEAL #1... at the START of the "7 yrs" (aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period)]

 

[rayzor]

Zec 13:9
um .And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is our God.....Is that 2 replace the 1/3 that fell from heaven?

 

[DavidTree]

"And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time."

In Revelation 12, Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth is the result of the 7th trumpet. When Satan is cast to the earth, the woman/Israel flees into the wilderness where she is cared for, for 1260 days, which puts Satan and his angels being cast out as taking place from the middle of that seven year period and covers the last 3 1/2 years. Therefore, since the 7th trumpet takes place in the middle of the seven years, then the previous seals and other six trumpets would have to take place during the first 3 1/2 years.

It's elementary my dear Watson

Here is an easy way to make $1,000

$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.

*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.

Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements

Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture

Rules are set forth by the Moderator = the Lord Jesus Christ.

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19
Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.

ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

 

[Jackson123]

2 Timothy 4:3

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;”

If I have choice I like to hear pre trib easier no need Cary the cross

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"the beginning of birth PANGS" / "SEALS" (they are equivalent) are included in what Rev1:1 calls "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1]

(NOT things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 years, as the Historicist viewpoint has it)

[1Th5:2-3 the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... this is the "ARRIVAL" of the DOTL time-period... Jesus spoke of this in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ('a certain one' bringing deception)--i.e. SEAL #1... at the START of the "7 yrs" (aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period)]

^ and speaking of "the day of the Lord" time-period (which Paul talked about false conveyors PURPORTING "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" 2Th2:2), Paul goes on to explain why it IS NOT, IN VERSE 3:


"3 that day [the time-period FROM VERSE 2] will not be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [the noun-event Paul ALREADY REFERRED to back IN VERSE 1]..."





[Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-from EVERY..." (present up in Heaven BEFORE the opening of the FIRST SEAL, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, etc... at the START of the DOTL time-period)]

 

[DWR]

just show the church after chapter four

and tell me that the chapter in the book of Revelation events is not happening, many of them at the same time as other events are happening?

Show me "the church" before chapter 4.
I see seven individual local churches, but not "the church".

 

[CS1]

Show me "the church" before chapter 4.
I see seven individual local churches, but not "the church".

sure Jesus speakss to them in Chater 1-3 Seven of them. NOw please answer my question.

 

[BryanPaul]

It's quite odd, all the Christians of different denominations (in England) that I've asked about pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib ect. have just looked blankly at me and said "What's that?"

 

[DWR]

sure Jesus speakss to them in Chater 1-3 Seven of them. NOw please answer my question.

You folks like to say "the church" not being mentioned after chapter 4 is proof of a pre-trib "rapture of the church".
My point is that "the church" is not mentioned before or after.

 

[CS1]

You folks like to say "the church" not being mentioned after chapter 4 is proof of a pre-trib "rapture of the church".
My point is that "the church" is not mentioned before or after.

well I just provide REV chapter 1 - 3 where Jesus is Speaking to the Chruches LOL