Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yeah. Before I was a Christian I was dating someone who wanted me to go to church with her. I agreed to go and almost ended up in a cult, I think, before I broke free. That actually damaged me a lot for a long time before I finally found myself again. I prefer self-study and/or small group studies now.
I've discovered there's a lot of doctrine in mainline Christianity that just isn't biblical, as far as I can tell.
I've discovered there's a lot of doctrine in mainline Christianity that just isn't biblical, as far as I can tell.
-
2
- Show all
Your error is that you are not bringing in the other scriptures regarding God's wrath. Since God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then the living church cannot enter into that time of wrath because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Therefore, before said wrath takes place, the promise that the Lord made in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess.4:16-17 must take place first to remove the church.
By placing the gathering of the church (rapture) as taking place after the great tribulation when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you are ignoring the scripture regarding our not being appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, as well as other scriptures that show the church being in heaven during the tribulation period.
The elect being gathered by the angels above in red, is not the gathering of the church, but of the great tribulation saints who make it through the great tribulation alive. To be clear, the angels here are gathering living people from all over the earth. These, along with the remnant of Israel are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and who will repopulate the earth.
As long as you continue to leave out other scriptures regarding end-time events, you will always be wrong in your interpretation. You have to bring all of the information in, in order to come to a right conclusion.
You also need to have a better understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath, understanding that His wrath is not for His church.
PS Matthew 24:29-31 has nothing to do with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. They are separate events.
By placing the gathering of the church (rapture) as taking place after the great tribulation when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you are ignoring the scripture regarding our not being appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, as well as other scriptures that show the church being in heaven during the tribulation period.
The elect being gathered by the angels above in red, is not the gathering of the church, but of the great tribulation saints who make it through the great tribulation alive. To be clear, the angels here are gathering living people from all over the earth. These, along with the remnant of Israel are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and who will repopulate the earth.
As long as you continue to leave out other scriptures regarding end-time events, you will always be wrong in your interpretation. You have to bring all of the information in, in order to come to a right conclusion.
You also need to have a better understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath, understanding that His wrath is not for His church.
PS Matthew 24:29-31 has nothing to do with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. They are separate events.
You still can't have the church on the earth during that time, because regardless of what Satan and the beast do, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be taking place throughout that entire time period. Satan getting tossed out of heaven is the result of God's wrath, the 7th trumpet/3rd woe. So, just because he gets mad because he is tossed out of heaven and pursues Israel, is no reason to call that time period Satan's time of wrath. He will be angry during the time of God's wrath, but the entire period, everything that takes place during that time, is God's wrath, not Satan's.
-
2
- Show all
The following is copied from:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-be-in-the-future.200137/page-29#post-4603180
(referring to Matthew 24)
Verses 16-20 comprise the instructions that the Jew-Christians were to follow according to the recognition of what is being illustrated in verse 15.
'When ye therefore shall see...'
[then]
'follow these instructions'
(And don't waste any time doing it.)
There was a three-year seige before the Romans took the city and destroyed the temple.
The Jew-Christians followed the instructions before/as the seige began.
What did they 'see' - before/as the seige began - three years before the temple was ever touched or destroyed - that they instantly recognized as being what was illustrated in verse 15?
hint:
( whoso readeth, let him understand: )
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-be-in-the-future.200137/page-29#post-4603180
(referring to Matthew 24)
Verses 16-20 comprise the instructions that the Jew-Christians were to follow according to the recognition of what is being illustrated in verse 15.
'When ye therefore shall see...'
[then]
'follow these instructions'
(And don't waste any time doing it.)
There was a three-year seige before the Romans took the city and destroyed the temple.
The Jew-Christians followed the instructions before/as the seige began.
What did they 'see' - before/as the seige began - three years before the temple was ever touched or destroyed - that they instantly recognized as being what was illustrated in verse 15?
hint:
( whoso readeth, let him understand: )
This is an excellent documentary on the rapture. It's a little long (2 hours 16 min.), but it's worth watching. It's a very professional production with graphics and illustrations throughout. It takes the pre-wrath position and does a very thorough job of comparing that with pre-trib. Enjoy! 
I listen to some so will reply to that. I believe in the Rapture, the carrying away of the Body of Christ to its eternal setting in glory.
1. The Day of the Lord. The word Day in Greek refers to a time period and a specific day. Both will occur. It is a time of God`s judgments, Greek `orge` which expresses wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. (Isa. 26: 21) Thus it is for 6.11 months as the 7 years is cut short. (Matt. 24: 22)
2. Imminent. This is not true. Hebrews tells us to `come together so much the more as you SEE the day approaching. ` (Heb. 10: 23) Also The Lord Jesus Christ DOES KNOW when He will come for He is NOW at the right hand of the Father - in the Godhead. (Heb. 1: 3)
3. Armageddon. This is a few days prior to the 1,260 days (42 months) the A/C rules. (Rev. 13: 5) The 1,290 days are in relation to the Temple cleansing. This will take place after Jesus has revealed Himself to the people of Jerusalem and they then go into mourning. (Zech. 12: 7 - 14) Then they will cleanse the Temple.
If you want more then I will have to listen to more of the tape.
Marilyn.
Hi Gary,
You said -
Question:
If pretrib folks believe that no saint / saved-person / one-who-believes-in-the-Lord-Jesus-Christ will experience any part of the 'Wrath of God' - and - they also believe that the [whole] '7-year tribulation' is the 'Wrath of God' - and - they also believe that there will be [martyred] saints during that tribulation --- isn't there a conflict here???
Yes there are `saints` in the tribulation. The Greek word `hagios,` means sacred, pure, holy one. And that is NOT just for believers in the Body of Christ.
BTW the trib, is cut short from the 7 years, and is 6.11 months.
You said -
Question:
If pretrib folks believe that no saint / saved-person / one-who-believes-in-the-Lord-Jesus-Christ will experience any part of the 'Wrath of God' - and - they also believe that the [whole] '7-year tribulation' is the 'Wrath of God' - and - they also believe that there will be [martyred] saints during that tribulation --- isn't there a conflict here???
Yes there are `saints` in the tribulation. The Greek word `hagios,` means sacred, pure, holy one. And that is NOT just for believers in the Body of Christ.
BTW the trib, is cut short from the 7 years, and is 6.11 months.
Hi Marilyn,
The tribulation period, i.e. the seven years that were prophesied of in Daniel 9:27 will not be shortened.
The seven years is divided up into two 3 1/2 year period, with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven.
When Jesus says, "unless those days were shortened no on would survive," He's saying that if the time period of God's wrath was allowed to go on any longer than that specified time, no one would survive. There is no time being cut off of the seven years.
That seven year period is represented in Revelation as two 1260 day periods, also referred to as 'a time, times and half a time' and as 42 months. Jesus will not return to the earth until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes the time of God's wrath.
The tribulation period, i.e. the seven years that were prophesied of in Daniel 9:27 will not be shortened.
The seven years is divided up into two 3 1/2 year period, with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven.
When Jesus says, "unless those days were shortened no on would survive," He's saying that if the time period of God's wrath was allowed to go on any longer than that specified time, no one would survive. There is no time being cut off of the seven years.
That seven year period is represented in Revelation as two 1260 day periods, also referred to as 'a time, times and half a time' and as 42 months. Jesus will not return to the earth until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes the time of God's wrath.
-
1
- Show all
I should have also said that the Day of the Lord, (time period) starts before the Russian Federation (northern army) comes to the mountains of Israel, BEFORE the 7 years. (Joel 2: 20)
`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; the the DAY OF THE LORD is coming, for it is at hand:....` (Joel 2: 1 ff)
Also in Rev. 15: 1 is says that the wrath of God is COMPLETED, not started.
`...the 7 angels, having the 7 last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is COMPLETE.` (Rev. 15: 1)
`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; the the DAY OF THE LORD is coming, for it is at hand:....` (Joel 2: 1 ff)
Also in Rev. 15: 1 is says that the wrath of God is COMPLETED, not started.
`...the 7 angels, having the 7 last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is COMPLETE.` (Rev. 15: 1)
There is the Jewish understanding and there is Paul's understanding, both will be proved right in their respective times .
It was concerning the day of the Lord that Peter wrote our beloved Paul writes many things which be hard to understand. They didn't understand, they couldn't get their heads around it. Paul had revelation. He understood.
He understood that the Jews were to be diminished as the people of God during the times of the Gentiles. This was something off the map for the Apostles in Jerusalem to understand. They stayed in Jerusalem no matter what because they believed that the Kingdom had begun and was to be rolled out from there, for them it was a straight run until the Lord comes a second time to pour out His wrath upon the unrepentant and to judge the living and the dead.
Paul understood that the church was to be established among the nations. This is what makes the rapture necessary, if the church were not among the nations then all could be gathered to Israel but as it is Israel is diminished and in unbelief still. So before the Lord can pour His wrath upon the unrepentant He must first remove the church.
The devil is gunna fight and as the time draws nigh he is going to pull out all the stops. To him the signal is Israel, he KNOWS that this is where the throne of Christ will be. When he sees the temple being re-built he will unleash a Furious onslaught against all religion in a bid to to establish himself as god of this world. This he will do through Antichrist.
This is the Great Tribulation.
It was concerning the day of the Lord that Peter wrote our beloved Paul writes many things which be hard to understand. They didn't understand, they couldn't get their heads around it. Paul had revelation. He understood.
He understood that the Jews were to be diminished as the people of God during the times of the Gentiles. This was something off the map for the Apostles in Jerusalem to understand. They stayed in Jerusalem no matter what because they believed that the Kingdom had begun and was to be rolled out from there, for them it was a straight run until the Lord comes a second time to pour out His wrath upon the unrepentant and to judge the living and the dead.
Paul understood that the church was to be established among the nations. This is what makes the rapture necessary, if the church were not among the nations then all could be gathered to Israel but as it is Israel is diminished and in unbelief still. So before the Lord can pour His wrath upon the unrepentant He must first remove the church.
The devil is gunna fight and as the time draws nigh he is going to pull out all the stops. To him the signal is Israel, he KNOWS that this is where the throne of Christ will be. When he sees the temple being re-built he will unleash a Furious onslaught against all religion in a bid to to establish himself as god of this world. This he will do through Antichrist.
This is the Great Tribulation.
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the church.
1. In Revelation 3:10, Jesus tells The Church "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (The Tribulation), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
2. The absence of any mention of the church in the rest of Revelation indicates that it is not on earth during the Tribulation. There are sixteen references to the church in Revelation 1-3, whereas chapters 6-18, which cover the Tribulation, do not mention The Church once.
3. The extensive use of O.T. language and symbols in chapters 4-18 is an indication of Israel, not The Church. This is understandable since the church age is the time of the Gentiles, whereas the Tribulation is the time of Jacob’s trouble or the seventieth week of Daniel, determined by God for His dealings with Israel. Some of these O.T. symbols are the tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, the altar, elders, censers, cherubim, seals, trumpets and plagues.
4. There is much similarity between the events of Revelation 4:1-2 and other scriptural teaching on the rapture, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet… which said, Come up hither, … And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
No single reason listed above is sufficient in itself to insist that Revelation 4:1-2 refers to The Rapture of The Church. When, however, all of them are considered together, I am inclined to believe that this inference can rightly be made.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
For some reason, an important ingredient is the trumpet. This is echoed in the following verses.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
That instantaneous translation is the blessed hope of The Bride.
Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"
Some are expecting the Tribulation; some are anticipating Armageddon; some are looking for The Beast and the False Prophet. Had that been the anticipation of the Apostle Paul, he hardly could have written concerning the "blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ," for it gives no one joy to think of living through the conflagration of Armageddon, nor is it a blessing to anticipate life under the iron fist of the Beast.
But what about that trumpet that Paul spoke of? The phrase, "The Trump Of God" is significant, for in the Old Testament the trumpet was used for two things - to summon to battle and to summon to worship.
After the church age is covered in Revelation chapters 1-3, John writes (Revelation 4:1-2) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
See it? Trumpet then heaven. This is where the "catching away" or "rapture" of The Bride occurs in the Revelation timetable. It cannot happen during chapter six or seven because there is no trumpet mentioned there. Revelation 4:1 begins with “After this”. After what? After the church age discussed in chapters 1-3.
The next trumpet in the book is Revelation 9:14, "Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates." That's no rapture; it’s a battle cry.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
1. In Revelation 3:10, Jesus tells The Church "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (The Tribulation), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
2. The absence of any mention of the church in the rest of Revelation indicates that it is not on earth during the Tribulation. There are sixteen references to the church in Revelation 1-3, whereas chapters 6-18, which cover the Tribulation, do not mention The Church once.
3. The extensive use of O.T. language and symbols in chapters 4-18 is an indication of Israel, not The Church. This is understandable since the church age is the time of the Gentiles, whereas the Tribulation is the time of Jacob’s trouble or the seventieth week of Daniel, determined by God for His dealings with Israel. Some of these O.T. symbols are the tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, the altar, elders, censers, cherubim, seals, trumpets and plagues.
4. There is much similarity between the events of Revelation 4:1-2 and other scriptural teaching on the rapture, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet… which said, Come up hither, … And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
No single reason listed above is sufficient in itself to insist that Revelation 4:1-2 refers to The Rapture of The Church. When, however, all of them are considered together, I am inclined to believe that this inference can rightly be made.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
For some reason, an important ingredient is the trumpet. This is echoed in the following verses.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
That instantaneous translation is the blessed hope of The Bride.
Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"
Some are expecting the Tribulation; some are anticipating Armageddon; some are looking for The Beast and the False Prophet. Had that been the anticipation of the Apostle Paul, he hardly could have written concerning the "blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ," for it gives no one joy to think of living through the conflagration of Armageddon, nor is it a blessing to anticipate life under the iron fist of the Beast.
But what about that trumpet that Paul spoke of? The phrase, "The Trump Of God" is significant, for in the Old Testament the trumpet was used for two things - to summon to battle and to summon to worship.
After the church age is covered in Revelation chapters 1-3, John writes (Revelation 4:1-2) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
See it? Trumpet then heaven. This is where the "catching away" or "rapture" of The Bride occurs in the Revelation timetable. It cannot happen during chapter six or seven because there is no trumpet mentioned there. Revelation 4:1 begins with “After this”. After what? After the church age discussed in chapters 1-3.
The next trumpet in the book is Revelation 9:14, "Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates." That's no rapture; it’s a battle cry.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
-
1
- Show all
Hello again,
You are mixing prophesies. The 2,300 days, is about 6 1/3 years. This prophecy was fulfilled before the birth of Christ, during the reign of king Antiochus IV (Epiphanes). Antiochus desecrated the temple in Jerusalem and severely persecuted the Jews from about September 171 BC to December 165 BC. When Antiochus died, the Jews purified and rededicated the temple, just as Daniel had predicted. These events are commemorated in the celebration of Hanukkah. In short, the 2,300 days has already been fulfilled and the seven year period is still future.
Don't you think that if God knew that if no one would survive His wrath, that He would have given the correct number up front instead of cutting it short after he specified the time as being seven years in length?
You are mixing prophesies. The 2,300 days, is about 6 1/3 years. This prophecy was fulfilled before the birth of Christ, during the reign of king Antiochus IV (Epiphanes). Antiochus desecrated the temple in Jerusalem and severely persecuted the Jews from about September 171 BC to December 165 BC. When Antiochus died, the Jews purified and rededicated the temple, just as Daniel had predicted. These events are commemorated in the celebration of Hanukkah. In short, the 2,300 days has already been fulfilled and the seven year period is still future.
Don't you think that if God knew that if no one would survive His wrath, that He would have given the correct number up front instead of cutting it short after he specified the time as being seven years in length?
The only bias I have is a bias for truth.
I started out with a preconceived idea the pre-tribulation rapture was true. This was mainly because I'd been listening to a bunch of "great minds" who said it true. When I decided to listen to the other side with an open mind and just see what the scriptures actually say about, my mind was changed and I saw the pre-trib position for what it is—a man-made idea.
I'm still open to what pre-tribbers have to say, but so far I haven't heard a convincing argument.
I started out with a preconceived idea the pre-tribulation rapture was true. This was mainly because I'd been listening to a bunch of "great minds" who said it true. When I decided to listen to the other side with an open mind and just see what the scriptures actually say about, my mind was changed and I saw the pre-trib position for what it is—a man-made idea.
I'm still open to what pre-tribbers have to say, but so far I haven't heard a convincing argument.
-
1
- Show all