Discussion on the End Times

[Absolutely]

No pre-trib rapture in Rev 14, none

The scripture below shows the second coming, and the Lords fire in Judgement, nothing new.

Next!

Revelation 14:14-19KJV
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Lol
That's the point
It is During the trib.

You dont see it do you?

Hint
If there is a gathering (the one you missed b4 the over ripe fruit.)....then the dead in Christ rising would not precede the living.

IOW you just proved the rapture CAN NOT be postrib.

Rev 14 has been hidden for years.(a gathering by Jesus DURING THE TRIB)
You heard it here first.
Nobody sees it.

 

[Absolutely]

You don't understand rev 14

It is the gathering of the Jews. Messianic jewish converts.
The gt is Jacob's trouble. (Israel's trouble)
The gentile church is removed pretrib. Then the trib is purposed to gather God's covenant people.
If you miss that. You will never unpack revelation.

 

[Keras]

You don't understand rev 14

It is the gathering of the Jews. Messianic jewish converts.
The gt is Jacob's trouble. (Israel's trouble)
The gentile church is removed pretrib. Then the trib is purposed to gather God's covenant people.
If you miss that. You will never unpack revelation.

You make a lot of personal opinion, with very little scriptural support.

Nowhere does the Bible say the Jews will be gathered, other than at the budding of the fig tree; which was fulfilled in 1948. They now face Judgment. Isaiah 22:1-14
Also, nowhere does the Bible say the Church will be raptured to heaven. It does say; we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Rev 13:10

All the prophets carefully distinguish between Judah and Israel, so to mix them up is error. They will not rejoin until Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled.

Who exactly is God's Covenant people? They cannot be the ones He took the Kingdom from. Matthew 21:43

 

[Absolutely]

You make a lot of personal opinion, with very little scriptural support.

Nowhere does the Bible say the Jews will be gathered, other than at the budding of the fig tree; which was fulfilled in 1948. They now face Judgment. Isaiah 22:1-14
Also, nowhere does the Bible say the Church will be raptured to heaven. It does say; we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Rev 13:10

All the prophets carefully distinguish between Judah and Israel, so to mix them up is error. They will not rejoin until Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled.

Who exactly is God's Covenant people? They cannot be the ones He took the Kingdom from. Matthew 21:43

Read romans
It's all there.

 

[Absolutely]

""You make a lot of personal opinion, with very little scriptural support""

Stop lying

 

[Truth7t7]

You can't approach the word with preconceived notions.i was saved in an amil fellowship. They taught that we are in the mil.
Once I started reading,it was obvious that the rapture was pretrib. and future.
That was 1977.
I have studied ever since.
Studied postrib as well.

I strictly study the rapture through heavens prism,which is bride/groom centered.

If another prism is used then not only will many verses never be placed on the table,but purpose and harmony is lost.

That is why other positions are shallow and mental.
No harmony, so verses are ignored or sidestepped.
Purpose is lost and the pretrib verses are reframed.

Not a good mixture.

Please post your Scripture again concerning the Bride/Groom that you claim projects a pre-trib rapture, please provide your argument.

I don't remember your past posting concerning these claims

 

[GraceAndTruth]

To the point of the original thread:

There are thousands of graduates with a theology degree. Most of them are only prepared to be wolves in sheep clothing. Theological seminaries are both sound and unsound. Princeton has had very solid training. Dallas Theological was founded by Chafer who was a follower of Scofield who designed premillenianism for dummies and dispensationalism. Both are well known and teach polar opposites of each other.

With the light of the Holy Spirit to shine on the truth of scripture, you do well to study on your own, using the bible, a Strong's concordance, writings of Flavius Josephus and a book on the customs and history of bible times. Actually some Jewish web sites offer a lot of information on Old Testament on customs, symbolism, feasts etc.

Posting a lengthy amount of scripture references without the text is lazy and avoiding true discussion. Most of them are probably out of context anyway so would be a waste of time.

Revelation is for study AFTER one has been grounded in the gospels, doctrines and the history offered in the old testament.
.........unless one does that they will be vulnerable to every apostasy and every theory that the minds of fallen man can come up with.

So easy to slide into theories when the theory was from someone you respected. Its up to you to test them by the scriptures.

 

[Keras]

To the point of the original thread:

There are thousands of graduates with a theology degree. Most of them are only prepared to be wolves in sheep clothing. Theological seminaries are both sound and unsound. Princeton has had very solid training. Dallas Theological was founded by Chafer who was a follower of Scofield who designed premillenianism for dummies and dispensationalism. Both are well known and teach polar opposites of each other.

With the light of the Holy Spirit to shine on the truth of scripture, you do well to study on your own, using the bible, a Strong's concordance, writings of Flavius Josephus and a book on the customs and history of bible times. Actually some Jewish web sites offer a lot of information on Old Testament on customs, symbolism, feasts etc.

Posting a lengthy amount of scripture references without the text is lazy and avoiding true discussion. Most of them are probably out of context anyway so would be a waste of time.

Revelation is for study AFTER one has been grounded in the gospels, doctrines and the history offered in the old testament.
.........unless one does that they will be vulnerable to every apostasy and every theory that the minds of fallen man can come up with.

So easy to slide into theories when the theory was from someone you respected. Its up to you to test them by the scriptures.

Thanks G&T, that was my point in this thread OP. That we are all Christians, but have very different views of God's Plans for our future.
What will happen, must pan out in only one way and any wild and unscriptural speculation, such as the floating off to heaven rapture, is just error and leaves people in the dark.
Isn't it obvious to everyone, that there is soon to come; a dramatic change to our civilization? Just a quick look at history, shows that no civilization lasts forever. Our current modern system of bunching up into cities cannot continue, as the infrastructure can't cope and whole countries are now unable to feed their populations.

We ARE told what will happen, we ARE told what we must do to survive the end times, secular people have no idea, but how come so many Christians don't know?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Thanks G&T, that was my point in this thread OP. That we are all Christians, but have very different views of God's Plans for our future.
What will happen, must pan out in only one way and any wild and unscriptural speculation, such as the floating off to heaven rapture, is just error and leaves people in the dark.
Isn't it obvious to everyone, that there is soon to come; a dramatic change to our civilization? Just a quick look at history, shows that no civilization lasts forever. Our current modern system of bunching up into cities cannot continue, as the infrastructure can't cope and whole countries are now unable to feed their populations.

We ARE told what will happen, we ARE told what we must do to survive the end times, secular people have no idea, but how come so many Christians don't know?

You are ohhh soooo wrong:
1.."unscriptural speculation, such as the floating off to heaven rapture, is just error and leaves people in the dark.)

1 Thess 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up** together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
**to be caught up is not a mistranslation, the Greek word harpzo mean to be caught up

2..."What will happen, must pan... " So you are of the Panmillenium group. .....it will all pan out LOL, not a exactly difinitive

3. All Christians are of ONE MIND, the mind of Christ....Phillippians 2:5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
we are to have NO divisions among us but that ye be 1 Cor Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you;

 

[Keras]

You are ohhh soooo wrong:
1.."unscriptural speculation, such as the floating off to heaven rapture, is just error and leaves people in the dark.)

1 Thess 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up** together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
**to be caught up is not a mistranslation, the Greek word harpzo mean to be caught up

2..."What will happen, must pan... " So you are of the Panmillenium group. .....it will all pan out LOL, not a exactly difinitive

3. All Christians are of ONE MIND, the mind of Christ....Phillippians 2:5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
we are to have NO divisions among us but that ye be 1 Cor Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you;

But 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does NOT say people who are alive and remain, [After the Great Tribulation] will be taken to heaven. It says they will be gathered to where Jesus is; initially in the clouds and then to Jerusalem. Paralleled by Matthew 24:30-31
It is a serious addition to that prophecy to think it means going to heaven, not to mention how illogical it is , as Jesus has come down from heaven as verse 16 clearly says.

2/ No, I believe the end times events will happen just as the Prophets have described.
The next prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal; a worldwide disaster that will set the scene for all the rest, from Revelation 7 to 19:11, to take place as Written.

3/ And we are One people, John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6
There is no separate Jewish redemption so as the Church can skive off to heaven, while the Jews get Tribulated. That idea is a lie upon the 'rapture' fable.

 

[Absolutely]

You are ohhh soooo wrong:
1.."unscriptural speculation, such as the floating off to heaven rapture, is just error and leaves people in the dark.)

1 Thess 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up** together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
**to be caught up is not a mistranslation, the Greek word harpzo mean to be caught up

2..."What will happen, must pan... " So you are of the Panmillenium group. .....it will all pan out LOL, not a exactly difinitive

3. All Christians are of ONE MIND, the mind of Christ....Phillippians 2:5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
we are to have NO divisions among us but that ye be 1 Cor Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you;

Rev 14 has Jesus gathering ripe fruit from the earth.

How do you get the gall to speak about Him so disrespectfully?

 

[Absolutely]

Please post your Scripture again concerning the Bride/Groom that you claim projects a pre-trib rapture, please provide your argument.

I don't remember your past posting concerning these claims

The dimension of the bride?
Groom?
Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



Matt25
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The parable of the wedding guests
mat 22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:


Jesus first miracle at a wedding

Mark 2:20
But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Luke 5:34
And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Revelation 18:23
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

and the last sentences of the bible the bride cries out;
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

the bible ends with the bride calling to the groom

Heaven calling for and longing for the bride

That is my center for all end times study

 

[Truth7t7]

The dimension of the bride?
Groom?
Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



Matt25
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The parable of the wedding guests
mat 22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:


Jesus first miracle at a wedding

Mark 2:20
But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Luke 5:34
And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Revelation 18:23
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

and the last sentences of the bible the bride cries out;
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

the bible ends with the bride calling to the groom

Heaven calling for and longing for the bride

That is my center for all end times study

In All Seriousness, And In Love

I really don't see any connection to a pre-trib rapture and your verses provided.

 

[Absolutely]

But 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does NOT say people who are alive and remain, [After the Great Tribulation] will be taken to heaven. It says they will be gathered to where Jesus is; initially in the clouds and then to Jerusalem. Paralleled by Matthew 24:30-31

Nope
Jesus vividly paints a much different picture
mat 25
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

not even a hint of white horses or a destroyed planet with dead bodies.
the scene is total peacetime.

the wedding chamber is ALWAYS in or adjacent to the fathers house.
.....that would be heaven.

vivid,vivid depiction of the pretrib rapture

 

[Absolutely]

In All Seriousness, And In Love

I really don't see any connection to a pre-trib rapture and your verses provided.

Thank you
we can all benefit from your christ likeness.
XXOO

mat 25
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

pretrib rapture
half the church left behind
(worthy vs unworthy)

 

[Absolutely]

In All Seriousness, And In Love

I really don't see any connection to a pre-trib rapture and your verses provided.

1) Combine mat 25
2) The last supper dialogue
And
3) The first miracle at a wedding

"you saved the best for last"
2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

We can all draw our own conclusions
I see;
The first miracle...it had to be the first because in heaven "the first is last"
The grapes are ripe fruit (NOT BARLEY OR WHEAT)
Wedding....it was a wedding
Both Jesus and the bridegroom are connected to the wine


ok,,,,now,,,,why is any of this significant?

Because,,,and i pondered this for years.....WHY WERE THE 144K FIRSTFRUITS?????(rev 14)

Because firstfruits PRECEDES main harvest. So there has to follow a main harvest.
bingo
Jesus on a cloud gathering ripe fruit.(again rev 14)

We see the jew (the best FRUIT / WINE) (gathered last)
The first wedding dimension Cana / last wedding dimension "CANA".
The jew is the last to come to the feast.
Rev 14 has the 144k in heaven as firstfruits
Those gathered BY Jesus on a cloud are RIPE FRUIT (not wheat or barley harvest)

Rapture DURING THE GT of the jewish believers.
The Jew is the recipient of the gt. (jacobs trouble) That trouble makes messianic Jewish converts(ripe fruit gathered)

 

[Absolutely]

Fun fact
Cana means "reed"
First miracle at jewsish wedding in the setting of "reeds"

Matthew 11:7
And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
The jews accepting the messiah as their messiah during the gt

uncanny the flow of the spirit.

 

[Absolutely]

till he send forth judgment unto victory.

i swear I just now noticed that.
HHHMMMMMM

 

[Absolutely]

till he send forth judgment unto victory.

That will preach

 

[Absolutely]

Plot twist
"grace and truth" leaves a nasty red ex .

"grace and truth" lol