Confusion over the "sign" gifts?

[GRACE_ambassador]

This is the thing in these kinds of discussions. If I may chime in. The definitions of what we are talking about is not the same.

We need to define what exactly the sign were biblically, and also what constitutes a biblical miracle.

Part of the reason I believe the sign gifts have passed and fulfilled there purpose is the difference between what biblically they are and what people call them now.

Precious friend, thanks for chiming in. And please do expound on "Biblical signs
and miracles," so we can "prove ALL things, and hold fast to that which is good!"
(1Th 5:21)

GRACE And Peace...

 

[LoveBrokeThru]

​

...if even an apostle as great as Paul eventually lost his ability to heal the sick, .

"Gifts', means that they originate from God. So, its not actually true to say that "paul could heal".
And there is no Greek Text or English Bible that says that Paul Lost his ability to heal.
So, you made that up, or more then likely, the commentary that you believe is a bible, that lied to you, is where you found this misinformation.

The reason that healing exists, is because Healing is of God, and Christ is God, and Jesus is the Same Yesterday - Forever.

The New Testament says...>"As Jesus IS....so, are the born again....in this World".

"Healing" is not a person who does it....... but its God's creative power manifesting into a situation that needs a miracle of healing.

One more.
Have you ever had a broken bone, or a cut, wound, or burn? ?
Why did it heal?
Its because God is still healing...........and He'll do it for you again........and if you need Him to bring this healing in a bigger way, and perhaps for someone else, then use this verse.

"""Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.""

Why use that one?
Because it does not require you to have faith., it only requires that you and another AGREE together.....and the power of agreement, is easier to achieve, than to try to believe that something you can't see, is going to manifest.

The devil knows that he can talk to your thinking and cause you to doubt, and he'll do it when you need to believe.
So, instead, get a believer and you agree with them, according to that verse, and then just leave it alone, and God will take it from there........and you'll discover that the power of 2, who agree, will cause your faith to fire, ....vs, you trying to work up your faith emotionally.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

And there is no Greek Text or English Bible that says that Paul Lost his ability to heal.
So, you made that up, or more then likely, the commentary that you believe is a bible, that lied to you, is where you found this misinformation.

This is what happens when one does not Prayerfully and Carefully review the:

Complete study here: ‘Tis Not the season for giving?
- - - - - - ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑
Much Less the "wording I used..." IF your accusation is false, how is that

"Love Broke Thru" to Correct me? Just sayin'...

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Evmur]

Precious friends, Many are still wondering about this difficult doctrine:

“Why Did God Give sign gifts to the early members of The Body Of Christ?...

...Before the Bible was complete, a complete knowledge of God’s will was impossible!
So God gave the early members of the Body of Christ a supernatural gift of knowledge
to tide them over until the Bible was finished...

...There are men on Christian television who claim to have this gift! But you know that
they don’t have the gift of faith because of the definition Paul gives us of the gift of
faith in the very next chapter of this epistle:

'...though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,​

and have not charity, I am nothing' (1 Corinthians 13:2)...​

​

...if even an apostle as great as Paul eventually lost his ability to heal the sick, we have
to conclude that no one since him has been given the gift of healing either.” (R. Kurth)

Complete study here: ‘Tis Not the season for giving?

GRACE And Peace...

there's nothing of scripture in this post, just assumptions, it's like you are brainwashed.

 

[wattie]

Precious friend, thanks for chiming in. And please do expound on "Biblical signs
and miracles," so we can "prove ALL things, and hold fast to that which is good!"
(1Th 5:21)

GRACE And Peace...

Well, a first example would be with speaking in tongues.

In Acts 2, the tongues were

*a known language.. with people hearing the gospel in their own language, as God was spreading His truth

*not ecstatic utterances

*a sign for the unbelieving that those who spoke in their language would know their message was from God.

More specifically.. to the Jews as showing the gospel has also gone to the gentiles.

Then if we look at Corinthians.. there are order and decency admonishments from Paul to the church.

I was in a charismatic youth group, and they never abided by those admonishments. From what I saw later and more recently most still dont abide by them.

Of course we are all still flawed, and can never do things perfectly, but most things Ive seen its pretty blatantly not even trying to abide by those admonishments.

 

[VARob]

Well, a first example would be with speaking in tongues.

In Acts 2, the tongues were

*a known language..

Not to the apostles doing the speaking... (1 Cor 14:2).

with people hearing the gospel in their own language, as God was spreading His truth

It does not say they heard the gospel, it says they heard them speaking "the wonderful works of God." And in Acts 10, Cornelius and his family were "magnifying God."

*not ecstatic utterances

Right. Tongues is never called "ecstatic utterances" in the Bible. That's a term made up by people who basically do not understand what speaking in tongues is. It is a derogatory term.

*a sign for the unbelieving

Yes, speaking in tongues is, or should be, a sign to unbelievers. Unfortunately, many just mock, as some of the Jews did on the day of Pentecost.

that those who spoke in their language would know their message was from God.

Where is that in the Bible?

More specifically.. to the Jews as showing the gospel has also gone to the gentiles.

That was not until later, in Acts 10. But you are right, when Peter and those with him heard Cornelius and his family speaking in tongues, it was proof to them that Cornelius and his family were born again.

Then if we look at Corinthians.. there are order and decency admonishments from Paul to the church.

Agreed.

I was in a charismatic youth group, and they never abided by those admonishments. From what I saw later and more recently most still dont abide by them.

Unfortunately this is true. It does not mean speaking in tongues has ceased, it means people need to pay more attention to the Bible.

Of course we are all still flawed, and can never do things perfectly, but most things Ive seen its pretty blatantly not even trying to abide by those admonishments.

That is unfortunate. There are people who try and follow the instruction of Paul.

 

[jb]

Confusion over the "sign" gifts?

For those interested, you can find a bit of a study Here on the gifts of the Spirit...

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

...There are men on Christian television who claim to have this gift! But you know that
they don’t have the gift of faith because of the definition Paul gives us of the gift of
faith in the very next chapter of this epistle:

"...though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing" (1 Corinthians 13:2)...

there's nothing of scripture in this post, just assumptions, it's like you are brainwashed.

Sorry, my bad:

"...though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,
and have not charity, I am nothing" (1 Corinthians 13:2)

So, this is not in your Bible?

I thank God that I am brain - "washed By The Water Of The Word" (Eph 5:26)

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Evmur]

Sorry, my bad:

"...though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,
and have not charity, I am nothing" (1 Corinthians 13:2)

So, this is not in your Bible?

I thank God that I am brain - "washed By The Water Of The Word" (Eph 5:26)

GRACE And Peace...

Yah but you can't just append a scripture to a pile of disconnected assumptions and proclaim that you have made a doctrinal argument.

You begin that "we know...that God gave sign gifts to early members of the body of Christ" you are implying that these signs were limited to the early church ... an assumption

That knowledge was given until completion of the bible .... even though the chiefest writer of the NT asserted that he saw as through a glass darkly and that he only knew in part ... a massive assumption

That Paul "lost" the gift of healing even though right up to the 27th chapter of Acts we see him practically healing every disease in the Isle of Malta ... massive assumption.

OK let's check to see whether you've been brainwashed here.

When you imbibed these doctrines were you strapped to a chair?
did someone shine an incredibly bright light in your eyes?
Was a deep sonorious voice played for hours and hours with or without electric shocks "i am cessationist, I am cessationist"

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Confusion over the "sign" gifts?

For those interested, you can find a bit of a study Here on the gifts of the Spirit...

Thanks. Maybe a touch above a "bit" - let's Scripturally Examine this little bit,
as - IF we don't get the "Holy Spirit" Doctrine Correct - then the "gifts" will also
be Incorrect, Correct?:

"Some will still insist that the first part of this verse in 1Cor.12v13. is speaking of the baptism IN the Spirit, they say that the Greek word "eis," translated in the King James Version as "into," shows that all Christians are baptised IN the Holy Spirit at conversion..." (9 gifts)

Some of us have Never "insisted on baptism IN the Spirit at conversion"! So,
this is an error, Right Out of the gate! Notice 1 Corinthians 12:13 Correctly
(And @Evmur, Notice The Scriptures we are brain - "Washed In BY The Word!"):

"For BY ONE Spirit are we all Baptized Into ONE Body, ​

whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond​

or free; and have been all made to drink into ONE Spirit."​

​

1) This "Baptism BY The Holy Spirit" has zip, zilch, nada, ZERO to
do with water regeneration "Into The [Spiritual] Body Of Christ!"
(Confirmed BY Ephesians_4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4) Baptized Into Christ IS Conversion, Correct?

2) Also, This "Baptism BY The Holy Spirit" is Never to be Confused
With The Other Baptism, WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out BY CHRIST,
For "power, signs, and wonders" (Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8,
Mark 16:17-18; Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)

Thus, the following "straw man" argument/false accusation/interpretation/
[OMN] Changing God's UNchangeable Word, fails:

(9 gifts)"...Paul is stating that even in the Corinthian church, baptism in water and baptism in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues, was the norm. Those who resist this pattern are more rebellious than the rebellious Corinthians. There is nothing sacrosanct about the translation of the Greek "eis," it can be translated as "for," "unto," "in relation to," "towards," as well as "in" or "Into." e.g. "for the remission of sins." Mt.3v11. Mk.1v4. Lk.3v3. Acts.2v38. 19v3-5. In the A.V. "eis" is translated in over 10 different ways. Olaf M. Norlie gives a good interpretation of this verse in his translation, "And by one Spirit we have through (WATER?) baptism been made members of one Body- Jews and Greeks alike, slave and free,- and all have been given to drink at one Source, and the one Spirit." (9 gifts of HS) my Emphasis

There is NO such animal as "baptism IN or OF the Spirit" anywhere in Scripture!

Thus the Confusion of the gifts will Continue until someone agrees WITH
Scripture, As "It Is WRITTEN," And Also studied As The Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!" (2 Timothy 2:15) Amen?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Evmur]

Confusion over the "sign" gifts?

Thanks. Maybe a touch above a "bit" - let's Scripturally Examine this little bit,
as - IF we don't get the "Holy Spirit" Doctrine Correct - then the "gifts" will also
be Incorrect, Correct?:

"Some will still insist that the first part of this verse in 1Cor.12v13. is speaking of the baptism IN the Spirit, they say that the Greek word "eis," translated in the King James Version as "into," shows that all Christians are baptised IN the Holy Spirit at conversion..." (9 gifts)

Some of us have Never "insisted on baptism IN the Spirit at conversion"! So,
this is an error, Right Out of the gate! Notice 1 Corinthians 12:13 Correctly
(And @Evmur, Notice The Scriptures we are brain - "Washed In BY The Word!"):

"For BY ONE Spirit are we all Baptized Into ONE Body, ​

whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond​

or free; and have been all made to drink into ONE Spirit."​

​

1) This "Baptism BY The Holy Spirit" has zip, zilch, nada, ZERO to
do with water regeneration "Into The [Spiritual] Body Of Christ!"
(Confirmed BY Ephesians_4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4) Baptized Into Christ IS Conversion, Correct?

2) Also, This "Baptism BY The Holy Spirit" is Never to be Confused
With The Other Baptism, WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out BY CHRIST,
For "power, signs, and wonders" (Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8,
Mark 16:17-18; Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)

Thus, the following "straw man" argument/false accusation/interpretation/
[OMN] Changing God's UNchangeable Word, fails:

(9 gifts)"...Paul is stating that even in the Corinthian church, baptism in water and baptism in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues, was the norm. Those who resist this pattern are more rebellious than the rebellious Corinthians. There is nothing sacrosanct about the translation of the Greek "eis," it can be translated as "for," "unto," "in relation to," "towards," as well as "in" or "Into." e.g. "for the remission of sins." Mt.3v11. Mk.1v4. Lk.3v3. Acts.2v38. 19v3-5. In the A.V. "eis" is translated in over 10 different ways. Olaf M. Norlie gives a good interpretation of this verse in his translation, "And by one Spirit we have through (WATER?) baptism been made members of one Body- Jews and Greeks alike, slave and free,- and all have been given to drink at one Source, and the one Spirit." (9 gifts of HS) my Emphasis

There is NO such animal as "baptism IN or OF the Spirit" anywhere in Scripture!

Thus the Confusion of the gifts will Continue until someone agrees WITH
Scripture, As "It Is WRITTEN," And Also studied As The Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!" (2 Timothy 2:15) Amen?

GRACE And Peace...

Did you ever hear the term carnal christians? Paul makes it plain that some walk and move and have their being in the Spirit while others, though saved, walk as men of the flesh.

When Paul speaks about the Body of Christ he doesn't speak about it in the same terms that you do. He speaks about the Body of Christ almost exclusively in terms of gifts of the Holy Spirit and ministries and functions.

I BELIEVE in the Body of Christ, but it is not functioning as a body.

If the Body of Christ is not operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit then it is operating only as a fleshly body. Saved without a doubt, made spiritual but not filled with the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit but not baptized in Him.

It has always been so in the church. You would not have to read Spurgeon for long before you realized that he recognised that not many of his hearers knew the Holy Spirit as streams of living water.

You've got to be where Christ is in His church.

It is no use to be where He was 2 or 3-5 hundred years ago ... the camp has moved on, move with it or perish in the wilderness.

And we are not espousing new doctrines, but BIBLE doctrines, not new truths but age old truths.