Confusion over the "sign" gifts?

GRACE_ambassador · May 13, 2022

Precious friends, Many are still wondering about this difficult doctrine:

“Why Did God Give sign gifts to the early members of The Body Of Christ?...

...Before the Bible was complete, a complete knowledge of God’s will was impossible!
So God gave the early members of the Body of Christ a supernatural gift of knowledge
to tide them over until the Bible was finished...

...There are men on Christian television who claim to have this gift! But you know that
they don’t have the gift of faith because of the definition Paul gives us of the gift of
faith in the very next chapter of this epistle:

'...though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,

and have not charity, I am nothing' (1 Corinthians 13:2)...

...if even an apostle as great as Paul eventually lost his ability to heal the sick, we have
to conclude that no one since him has been given the gift of healing either.” (R. Kurth)

Complete study here: ‘Tis Not the season for giving?

GRACE And Peace...

Oncefallen · May 13, 2022

Guys (and gals) since cessation vs. continuation is always a subject that gets heated I'm going to give fair warning from the start. If you cannot disagree civilly then don't post. Argue the doctrine, not the character of the person with whom you disagree.

Edify · May 13, 2022

Mark 16:17And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
I didn't see any Bible version say, "And these signs will accompany those who believe until the Bible is written."

Blain · May 13, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

Except nowhere in scripture does it say they will cease, nowhere does it even say it was for the first church only either but do you know what it does say many times? anything is possible if you believe, if you have faith,if you ask you will receive things like that. far more scripture supports the gift than it does deny it and faith is the only currency ever asked for to see God move, granted it is a more rare gift but to say no one has had it since Paul simply denies God's way of doing things

SomeDisciple · May 13, 2022

This is silly... the Apostles never had "at will" super-powers; they weren't like the X-men, or Avengers or something. It was always the Holy Spirit doing the miracles.

Blain · May 13, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

Christian avengers assemble!

Edify · May 13, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

Who said they were?

SomeDisciple · May 13, 2022

Edify said:

This is my response to the idea that "Paul eventually lost his ability to heal the sick". He didn't lose the power, because it was never his power to begin with. Just like tongues was "as the Spirit gave the utterance", just like Prophets speak prophecy by the Holy Spirit and not their own will. And the idea that "well, if God stopped working miracles through Paul... he must not be doing miracles by anyone, then" that's not sound logic at all.

Blain · May 13, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

Yes this is why i don't believe in the practicing of the gifts like prophecy. I have seen some teachers tell others to practice prophesying some practice the gifts at will but it is spirit lead not man lead it is not something we have control over what so ever we cannot practice it lose it or gain it by our own means what so ever it has nothing to do with us onoly the spirit

perhaps the argument could be made that the gifts ceased because the spirirt saw no need for them after the first church or since the bible was finnished but that would mean that God said to believe in vain because he said all things were possible with faith and i know someone who recently was cured of a massive kidney stone from her husband praying for her laying his hands on her and leaving to go home he didn't expect her to call him telling him they were gone and that the doctor was baffled.

The gifts aren't gone they just require faith

VARob · May 13, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

Yes, some people have a problem with it.

Where are the manifestations of the Holy Spirit ever called "sign gifts" in the Bible? And why do you believe only the "early members" of the Church had them?

So God could not give revelation to people before the Bible was complete?

Where does the Bible say that the manifestation of a word of knowledge was to "tide them over"?

I don't see the connection. It's true that some people misuse the gifts. They were misused in the first century church, too, which Paul addressed in 1 Cor 14.

Where does the Bible say "Paul eventually lost his ability to heal the sick"?

Why do we "have to" conclude that?

Your link would not open for me.

Edify · May 13, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

This is my response to the idea that "Paul eventually lost his ability to heal the sick". He didn't lose the power, because it was never his power to begin with. Just like tongues was "as the Spirit gave the utterance", just like Prophets speak prophecy by the Holy Spirit and not their own will. And the idea that "well, if God stopped working miracles through Paul... he must not be doing miracles by anyone, then" that's not sound logic at all.

God didn't quit using Paul till he died.

Dino246 · May 13, 2022

The OP has essentially declared that he does not believe in miracles.

This is a self-defeating argument, because he has just raised a horse from the dead... so he can beat it some more.

Blain · May 13, 2022

Dino246 said:

I am currently waiting on a miracle healing to be specific if he doesn't believe in them i will just have to prove him wrong

Amanuensis · May 13, 2022

VARob · May 13, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

The link finally opened for me..

the article said:

They also profit Christians today.

What version of the Bible has the word "soon" in 1 Cor 13:8? And what translation says "once the word of God was complete"?

What makes you think He did?

The author is basing his article on his belief that the gifts were temporary, until the written Bible was complete. That's a common belief for cessationists, but there is nothing in the Bible to support that position.

Amanuensis · May 13, 2022

What is a sign gift and what is the scripture you are using to support calling it that?

For example, we have "These signs shall follow them that believe they will speak with new tongues..." In Mark 16.

Is that the scripture you are referring to when you say "sign gifts?"

There is nothing in that text that says that these signs will follow them until the book of Revelation has been completed.

As a matter of fact doesn't the book of Revelation say something about a couple of witnesses doing some signs and wonders like turning water into blood, sending plagues and fire upon their enemies that try to kill them, all Elijah/Moses style?

So even in the last book of the New Testament to be completed we have a proclamation that signs will still be following those that believe at the end of the world don't we?

Don't watch fakes on TV. That is how you solve that problem. If you don't want to believe that the churches that operate in the Gifts of the Spirit as written about in 1 Cor 12-14 are real, then that is your choice but there is no scripture that says that they have quit or that God planned to take them back. The gifts of God are without repentance.

I will not judge someone's motives for not believing that the gifts of the Spirit are for todays church but I do always ask people to be honest with themselves and ask themselves questions like;

"If the gifts were available for the church today, would I want to exercise them?

Would I want to speak in tongues in my church?

Would I want to interpret tongues in my church?

Would I want to prophesy in my church?

Would I think it was weird? Would I be embarrassed?

Am I glad that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today?

Am I thinking in my heart "Whew! I am so glad they passed away because I would feel really weird trying to give someone a word of knowledge or even laying hands on a sick person. What if they did not get healed?

I would rather just believe that the gifts are not for today, (even if they are, that is why I have not done a thorough study. I don't want to find out I am wrong. God will look over it if I am ignorant and did not know. He won't think it was because I was ashamed of the gifts. If I study and admit that cessationism is not scriptural then I have to ask for the gifts and I don't want any."

This is a hard truth someone might have to face if they want to be honest.

There are some who know that is really the reason they favor cessationism. Not because they have done a thorough study on every verse on the subject but because they want cesssationism to be true so they can feel excused from seeking any spiritual gifts. They are the "I'd rather pass, thank you very much" crowd.

I am not saying you are of that crowd, but I always ask people to examine themselves and make sure that they can honestly answer the question. "If the gifts were available for the church today would I want to ask for them?" And why or why not. If we can find a definite "Yes, I would want whatever the Holy Spirit wanted to give me, and use me, and would not be embarrassed to use that gift in the church even if people thought I was weird" Then we are at a place where we know we can examine the scripture without a bias forcing us to see things that are not there because of another motive.

Aerials1978 · May 13, 2022

Amanuensis said:

What is a sign gift and what is the scripture you are using to support calling it that?

For example, we have "These signs shall follow them that believe they will speak with new tongues..." In Mark 16.

Is that the scripture you are referring to when you say "sign gifts?"

There is nothing in that text that says that these signs will follow them until the book of Revelation has been completed.

As a matter of fact doesn't the book of Revelation say something about a couple of witnesses doing some signs and wonders like turning water into blood, sending plagues and fire upon their enemies that try to kill them, all Elijah/Moses style?

So even in the last book of the New Testament to be completed we have a proclamation that signs will still be following those that believe at the end of the world don't we?

Don't watch fakes on TV. That is how you solve that problem. If you don't want to believe that the churches that operate in the Gifts of the Spirit as written about in 1 Cor 12-14 are real, then that is your choice but there is no scripture that says that they have quit or that God planned to take them back. The gifts of God are without repentance.

I will not judge someone's motives for not believing that the gifts of the Spirit are for todays church but I do always ask people to be honest with themselves and ask themselves questions like;

"If the gifts were available for the church today, would I want to exercise them?

Would I want to speak in tongues in my church?

Would I want to interpret tongues in my church?

Would I want to prophesy in my church?

Would I think it was weird? Would I be embarrassed?

Am I glad that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today?

Am I thinking in my heart "Whew! I am so glad they passed away because I would feel really weird trying to give someone a word of knowledge or even laying hands on a sick person. What if they did not get healed?

I would rather just believe that the gifts are not for today, (even if they are, that is why I have not done a thorough study. I don't want to find out I am wrong. God will look over it if I am ignorant and did not know. He won't think it was because I was ashamed of the gifts. If I study and admit that cessationism is not scriptural then I have to ask for the gifts and I don't want any."

This is a hard truth someone might have to face if they want to be honest.

There are some who know that is really the reason they favor cessationism. Not because they have done a thorough study on every verse on the subject but because they want cesssationism to be true so they can feel excused from seeking any spiritual gifts. They are the "I'd rather pass, thank you very much" crowd.

I am not saying you are of that crowd, but I always ask people to examine themselves and make sure that they can honestly answer the question. "If the gifts were available for the church today would I want to ask for them?" And why or why not. If we can find a definite "Yes, I would want whatever the Holy Spirit wanted to give me, and use me, and would not be embarrassed to use that gift in the church even if people thought I was weird" Then we are at a place where we know we can examine the scripture without a bias forcing us to see things that are not there because of another motive.

With the prophets and apostles, they had an extremely difficult existence. Hated, dishonored, beaten, lonely, and many endured horrible deaths. I find it interesting so many today can claim to have the same abilities, but lack the laden continuity of such a calling.

Nehemiah6 · May 13, 2022

Amanuensis said:

What is a sign gift and what is the scripture you are using to support calling it that? [/QUOTE] Sign gifts were "signs, wonders, and miracles" for the authentication of the Gospel while the apostles were on earth (Hebrews 2:3,4): How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

The key is "God bearing them witness". The Gospel was something new and completely beyond human reasoning. And God wanted the Gospel propagated and also become effective throughout the Roman empire. Thus within less than 400 years the Roman and Byzantine empires became "Christian". and all of Europe was "Christian" for hundreds of years. Therefore it was necessary for unbelievers to see miracles by the hands of those preaching the Gospel after the resurrection of Christ. That would show the power of God both in the miracles and in the Gospel. But after the apostles passed on there were no signs, wonders, and miracles. The Catholic church claimed to be seeing miracles, but the book Counterfeit Miracles by B.B. Warfield debunks that notion.

And that is why they are called "the signs of an apostle". Paul said that he performed these miracles to authenticate his apostleship: I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds [miracles]. (2 Cor 12:11,12)

No doubt some of the companions of the apostles were also able to do miracles. But today, the prayer of faith produces healing (as noted by James), and most of those who claim to be "working miracles" are not actually doing so. Also, today in some areas where God feels it necessary, He performs other miracles through prayer. But miracle workers are not in the churches, otherwise every church would have at least one. And as a result the hospitals would be empty and Christians would be healed of all manners of sicknesses and diseases. There is a difference between God performing miracles as He sees fit (which He does every day), and miracle workers exercising their spiritual gift.

Amanuensis · May 14, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

I think that for the same reasons that these things followed their preaching then we still need these things to follow the Gospel preaching today. Don't you?

Jesus only healed one man at the pool of Bethsaida when it was full of sick folk. Cleaning out hospitals was not something Jesus or Paul did.

For those who believe, these signs will follow them as they GO and Preach the Gospel in great boldness giving testimony to the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. There is no telling what kinds of miraculous signs will follow that believer who actually DOES what Jesus said to do and GOES forth preaching the Full Gospel.

I would rather believe it than doubt it.

ResidentAlien · May 14, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

No wondering here. My position is as it's always been. Scripture doesn't specifically say signs and wonders will cease so we have to evaluate any so-called signs and wonders on their own merit. All I see are lying signs and wonders. This actually was foretold.

Confusion over the "sign" gifts?

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