Concerning the gift of tongues

[Blain]

Is it not according the teachings from charismatics and Pentecostals that speaking in tongues is the sign, that someone has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
So if someone is not speaking in tongues, then this is the sign that he has not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
But is someone not baptised with the Holy Spirit, he has also not the Holy Spirit.

to be honest I have the holy spirit but since I do not speak in tongues I wonder if there is a difference between having the holy spirit and being baptized in the holy spirit.

 

[Blain]

The rejection of the Pentecostal movement is not a doctrine but an observation.

Just as we reject the claims of Bigfoot-like people roaming the woods, so do we also reject the claims of Pentecostals.

I do not believe in Bigfoot not because of a systemic search of every inch of forest or every claim of a sighting. But the obvious lack of evidence that should be clearly evident is proof enough.

CS1, do you believe in Bigfoot? If not, why not?

I am not swallowing a camel because there is no Pentecostal camel to swallow.

Just claims of a camel.

If the claims of Pentecostalism were true we would all be Pentecostals.

Show me one verse that states that tongues has ceased, and by the way the way you respond in such a nasty manner to people and the fact you don't believe in the gift I would say you are spiritually dry

 

[wattie]

Read 1 Corinthians 14, then look at your comment.

Well, the thing is is the historical context of what Corinth was like. I will check again, but that history adds another layer.

 

[Inquisitor]

1 Corinthians 14:6-11 KJV - Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

So here is showing that tongues people understand is how God wants it

1 Corinthians 14:39: "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues

 

[Inquisitor]

why do you think that is? is the gift of tongues just that rare or is it just so misunderstood that it is not ever used correctly?
With all the fake tongues I have expereienced I would by all means think it is not a gift for today but I have a few times seen and tasted the real thing myself so I know it is real but why is it so rare I wonder?

Why are the gifts rare?

Because nearly all churches are traditional churches.

Traditional churches are not based on sola scripture.

All the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit are available for scripture only churches.

 

[Inquisitor]

Is it not according the teachings from charismatics and Pentecostals that speaking in tongues is the sign, that someone has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
So if someone is not speaking in tongues, then this is the sign that he has not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
But is someone not baptised with the Holy Spirit, he has also not the Holy Spirit.

I think you may be referring to a specific Pentecostal organization.

I have been to more than a few Pentecostal churches and tongues are not a sign of a baptism
in the Holy Spirit. According to the N.T. the gifts are distributed through the members of the church.

Not everyone speaks in tongues nor is everyone a prophet.

There is a far more important point to note in this debate.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

Who said that you must be a Pentecostal to experience the power of the Holy Spirit?

 

[GWH]

The rejection of the Pentecostal movement is not a doctrine but an observation.

Just as we reject the claims of Bigfoot-like people roaming the woods, so do we also reject the claims of Pentecostals.

I do not believe in Bigfoot not because of a systemic search of every inch of forest or every claim of a sighting. But the obvious lack of evidence that should be clearly evident is proof enough.

CS1, do you believe in Bigfoot? If not, why not?

I am not swallowing a camel because there is no Pentecostal camel to swallow.

Just claims of a camel.

If the claims of Pentecostalism were true we would all be Pentecostals.

The problem is that the Bible is unclear regarding the problematic aspects of pentecostalism.
IOW, the pentecostalists do not have one verse in the entire Bible that states :

• The gift of tongues is for today
• The gift of tongues did not stop by the time the bible was completed

Instead, we have Jesus never mentioning tongues and Paul in 1Cor.14:14-15 commending them in one sentence then
condemning them in the next and then in the rest of the chapter condoning them if interpreted. Hence the confusion,
but at least it is clear that tongues are NOT required for salvation NOR the sign of being filled with the Spirit, which is love.

(I note that Inquisitor seems to agree with this view :^)

 

[GWH]

Oops! I meant 1Cor.14:18-19.

 

[GWH]

The problem is that the Bible is unclear regarding the problematic aspects of pentecostalism.
IOW, the pentecostalists do not have one verse in the entire Bible that states :

• The gift of tongues is for today
• The gift of tongues did not stop by the time the bible was completed

Instead, we have Jesus never mentioning tongues and Paul in 1Cor.14:14-15 commending them in one sentence then
condemning them in the next and then in the rest of the chapter condoning them if interpreted. Hence the confusion,
but at least it is clear that tongues are NOT required for salvation NOR the sign of being filled with the Spirit, which is love.

(I note that Inquisitor seems to agree with this view :^)

Oops! I meant 1Cor.14:18-19.

 

[wolfwint]

to be honest I have the holy spirit but since I do not speak in tongues I wonder if there is a difference between having the holy spirit and being baptized in the holy spirit.

So how you have the Holy Spirit, if you are not baptised with the Holy Spirit?

 

[Blain]

So how you have the Holy Spirit, if you are not baptised with the Holy Spirit?

Im just wondering if maybe the baptism of the spirit is not what we have been lead to believe think of how it was in pentecost and think of how Jesus breathed the holy spirit into the apostles they already had the spirit but on pentecost and from then on they were much different full of the spirit and power even to the point where peters shadow was able to heal

so if they had the spirit already but were different when pentecost came then maybe having the spirit and being baptized in it are not the same thing

 

[wolfwint]

I think you may be referring to a specific Pentecostal organization.

I have been to more than a few Pentecostal churches and tongues are not a sign of a baptism
in the Holy Spirit. According to the N.T. the gifts are distributed through the members of the church.

Not everyone speaks in tongues nor is everyone a prophet.

There is a far more important point to note in this debate.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

Who said that you must be a Pentecostal to experience the power of the Holy Spirit?

Maby then they change their teaching, because the teaching is false.
Which started with Azusa Street and Agnes Ozman. The beginning of the Pentecostal movement. All pentecostal churches have their beginning there.
Btw later then the charismatic movement startet. So only pentecostals ore charismatics teach and practice this.
Today you find this teaching in almost all denominations, because this charismatic teaching attracts many believers who searching wonders and special feelings in their life. In my church this is taught in secret. Not on the pulpit. They do not practice it, but they have many contacts to pentecostal and charismatic churches where it is practised. Its strange, they defend this teaching, but not practice it.

 

[Blain]

Maby then they change their teaching, because the teaching is false.
Which started with Azusa Street and Agnes Ozman. The beginning of the Pentecostal movement. All pentecostal churches have their beginning there.
Btw later then the charismatic movement startet. So only pentecostals ore charismatics teach and practice this.
Today you find this teaching in almost all denominations, because this charismatic teaching attracts many believers who searching wonders and special feelings in their life. In my church this is taught in secret. Not on the pulpit. They do not practice it, but they have many contacts to pentecostal and charismatic churches where it is practised. Its strange, they defend this teaching, but not practice it.

what is the difference between pentecostals and charismatics?

 

[wolfwint]

Im just wondering if maybe the baptism of the spirit is not what we have been lead to believe think of how it was in pentecost and think of how Jesus breathed the holy spirit into the apostles they already had the spirit but on pentecost and from then on they were much different full of the spirit and power even to the point where peters shadow was able to heal

so if they had the spirit already but were different when pentecost came then maybe having the spirit and being baptized in it are not the same thing

What is with Thomas? He was not there when Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the apostles?

 

[Blain]

What is with Thomas? He was not there when Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the apostles?

I'm not sure really but the simple fact that the apostles had the spirit already and then at pentecost were much different seems to imply there is a difference

 

[wolfwint]

what is the difference between pentecostals and charismatics?

The Pentecostals have their own churches.
Charismatics infilt existing churches/denominations.

 

[wolfwint]

I'm not sure really but the simple fact that the apostles had the spirit already and then at pentecost were much different seems to imply there is a difference

Well but this was only happend with the apostles which had anyway a special Status. You dont find this later reportet.
Neither in Acts 2 in the upperroom nor in Acts 8, 10 ore 19.

 

[Blain]

The Pentecostals have their own churches.
Charismatics infilt existing churches/denominations.

do they have similar beliefs or are they different in doctrines? I have been accused of being a charismatic but honestly never understood what that is exactly but it soundd like a bad thing to be called

 

[Blain]

Well but this was only happend with the apostles which had anyway a special Status. You dont find this later reportet.
Neither in Acts 2 in the upperroom nor in Acts 8, 10 ore 19.

do you mean the spirit being breathed into someone?

 

[Lamar]

Well, you have no excuse then for the way you post in such a nasty manner as you know the Bible talks about controlling the tongue.



I have clearly said it is the Holy Spirit who has the power; again, I never said I had any power so why do continue with this deliberate attempt to say I think I have power?

You are a small and very petty individual who continues to hate on me and that's fine. No one is able to stop God or stop the work of
His Spirit.

The Bible exposes those who do not love the truth while you claim to know more than scripture. You could say all that you have said without the name calling and accusations but you did not do so. It seems you might think that you have some kind of power to continue ranting on and at this point it's boring. You offer zero scripture to back up what you say so I don't think you should be taken seriously, but kind of like those gnats people slap at the beach.

I Corinthians 14

14 Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people, but to God; for no one understands, but [b]in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for edification, [c]exhortation, and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but rather that you would prophesy; and greater is the one who prophesies than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edification.


6 But now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophecy, or of teaching? 7 Yet even lifeless instruments, whether flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp? 8 For if the trumpet produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? 9 So you too, unless you produce intelligible speech by the tongue, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will just be talking to the air. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of [d]languages in the world, and none is incapable of meaning. 11 So if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be unintelligible to the one who speaks, and the one who speaks will be unintelligible [e]to me. 12 So you too, since you are eager to possess [f]spiritual gifts, strive to excel for the edification of the church.


13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue is to pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive. 15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing with the mind also. 16 For otherwise, if you bless God [g]in the spirit only, how will the one who occupies the place of the [h]outsider know to say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you are saying? 17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. 18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 nevertheless, in church I prefer to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Congratulations. Scripture itself contests your beliefs. I'm not bothering to reply to you again as you have nothing worthy to respond to in how you attack and bluster and again, sans any proof. You are not really attacking me though. It is scripture you deny.

Trust and Obey is not attacking scripture. He is pointing out your error on this issue.

You have refused to show any verses that support your claim to personally practice this gift.

The best you have done is to show that many in the New Testament had this ability and nothing more.

All Christians accept that this happened.

Speaking in tongues is a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
It is a event not meant to be defended by scripture but instead actually witnessed.

Tongues are not a act of faith but a bodily act of the Holy Spirit. You do not need faith to witness tongues.

Attempting to defend a ongoing tangible event with something written 2000 years ago is a sign that the event is bogus.