Christians and the Law of Moses
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What does the world have to do with the unseen things of God?
Persecutions comes along with salvation .It is seen by the first apostle the first martyr, Abel .
The father of lies a mass murderer or serial killer from the beginning. Abel was his first work .plowed him under the corn field out of sight out of mind. The pagan religious foundation . No faith coming from hearing God as did Abel was freely given.
Not having received the promise. His blood cries out to be clothed with the incorruptible .
I am not the teacher. One is our teacher in heaven .We are to call no man on earth teacher.
Can the just letter of the law death signified by Moses be separated from the power of the law, the prophets signified by Elias. The law of faith ?
Are you following the spirit of Catholicism? Caled a law of the fathers?
Can the just letter of the law death signified by Moses be separated from the power of the law, the prophets signified by Elias. The law of faith ?
Are you following the spirit of Catholicism? Caled a law of the fathers?
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Not according to Scripture. You can't pick apart the law of Moses it all stands or falls together. As Paul himself says:
For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 [s]However, the Law is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live [u]by them.” (Galatians 3:9-12)
All of Moses was nailed to the cross. The law spoken of in the Psalms is not the "law" of Moses but the law of Christ. And the law of Christ is not one written on stone tablets and parchment but one that is carved on the heart of every believer. It's statutes are higher and better and it brings life rather than being redirected by sin to minister death.
If you wish to be justified by Moses you must keep every single stitch and tittle. As James says:
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. (James 2:10)
So in your attempt to maintain Moses you do not honor Christ but merely render yourself a lawbreaker.
For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 [s]However, the Law is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live [u]by them.” (Galatians 3:9-12)
All of Moses was nailed to the cross. The law spoken of in the Psalms is not the "law" of Moses but the law of Christ. And the law of Christ is not one written on stone tablets and parchment but one that is carved on the heart of every believer. It's statutes are higher and better and it brings life rather than being redirected by sin to minister death.
If you wish to be justified by Moses you must keep every single stitch and tittle. As James says:
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. (James 2:10)
So in your attempt to maintain Moses you do not honor Christ but merely render yourself a lawbreaker.
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L
Blik, post: 4330533, member: 249025"]If you are going to Christ, and I am not-- as you say, then retirement years devoted to scripture study would be useless. Is your scripture different from mine? Mine has four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, does yours?
you have an interesting choice of words there Blik. You often mention Christ, but I never said you were 'not going to Him'. kindly post the place I said that but I know you won't find it. you reject the NT scripture that tells us plainly that the law no longer applies and that those who insist on following it, albeit in half measures, are under a curse and further, this has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple people, myself included. In fact, it has just recently been pointed out to you yet again in post 48 by a relative newcomer to these forums AND again in post 65. It seems you deny what the word states and choose what you wish to follow for your own pleasure
As far as your personal investment in your 'studies', better to come to grips with it now that you have failed to grasp the truth of the gospel, then waste another number of years following the same unbiblical pursuit of trying to keep the law or portions of the law, which the NT assures saves absolutely NO ONE
I can't remember all your posts but if you believe in the teachings of the main line churches then please ask yourself if your scripture you have tells you about Easter? The KJV interpreted the word Passover as Easter, that doesn't count. Do you find a passage that says the Law is cancelled? Part of the old covenant is obsolete, what of what Moses taught is obsolete? Find where God makes a statement that the Sabbath day He established is cancelled. I don't mean use fleshly reasoning to come up with this but find that statement by the Lord. If He cancelled it scripture would make that statement. We can use a man made day, or even copy the day the pagans used, but that doesn't mean God cancelled what He created.
I believe the gospel as presented in scripture. You can malign what you call main line churches, but when you cross the line and malign the actual gospel as revealed in scripture, then you have begun to preach a different gospel. A gospel that does not glorify Jesus, a gospel that says you still have to follow the law or parts of the law, a gospel, in fact, that the scripture informs us, will PUT YOU UNDER A CURSE!
Are you just kidding? You have been pointed to the scriptures that state that very thing that you say does not exist. God did not create sin and the law EXPOSES sin. God made a way out of the predicament of all flesh and offered His own Son for a once and forever sin offering and you REFUSE it! God help you. This is as serious as life and death because one is death, the law which no one can keep so therefore it cannot save, and the sacrifice that God provided which does save forever and gives new life even while we are on this earth. You know, I doubt you will keep on hearing this forever because if the gospel falls on deaf ears, if the seed falls on shallow ground or deception covers the eyes, the refusal will become more apparent and the heart will become ever harder while telling itself it is saved and everyone else is wrong.
These interpretations of scripture are all from man using fleshly reason, not from statements of the Lord. The Jews did this. One of their laws was about how far you could go on a Sabbath. They used scripture to back up their decision. Another was to not help a man in trouble on the Sabbath, and scripture tells of that one. You are following men, not God and raking me over the coals, judging and condemning me because I follow what scripture tells me.
Oh the irony and the hypocrisy of this statement above. YOU USE scripture all the time to tell others how wrong they are, how they misunderstand while you do understand. You misquote and you DELIBERATELY twist what is said to you.
Madame, it is YOU that is following error and not those of us who consistently and with obvious patience, although you have proven to dislike our words AND scripture, point out to you what the scriptures of the NT declare, that there is no more sacrifice and no more need to follow the institutions of the Jews in the OT.
If you think there are coals under your feet, I would suggest to you it is the Holy Spirit appealing to you to turn from your error
May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ be glorified in all He has done and in all He has provided
you have an interesting choice of words there Blik. You often mention Christ, but I never said you were 'not going to Him'. kindly post the place I said that but I know you won't find it. you reject the NT scripture that tells us plainly that the law no longer applies and that those who insist on following it, albeit in half measures, are under a curse and further, this has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple people, myself included. In fact, it has just recently been pointed out to you yet again in post 48 by a relative newcomer to these forums AND again in post 65. It seems you deny what the word states and choose what you wish to follow for your own pleasure
As far as your personal investment in your 'studies', better to come to grips with it now that you have failed to grasp the truth of the gospel, then waste another number of years following the same unbiblical pursuit of trying to keep the law or portions of the law, which the NT assures saves absolutely NO ONE
I can't remember all your posts but if you believe in the teachings of the main line churches then please ask yourself if your scripture you have tells you about Easter? The KJV interpreted the word Passover as Easter, that doesn't count. Do you find a passage that says the Law is cancelled? Part of the old covenant is obsolete, what of what Moses taught is obsolete? Find where God makes a statement that the Sabbath day He established is cancelled. I don't mean use fleshly reasoning to come up with this but find that statement by the Lord. If He cancelled it scripture would make that statement. We can use a man made day, or even copy the day the pagans used, but that doesn't mean God cancelled what He created.
I believe the gospel as presented in scripture. You can malign what you call main line churches, but when you cross the line and malign the actual gospel as revealed in scripture, then you have begun to preach a different gospel. A gospel that does not glorify Jesus, a gospel that says you still have to follow the law or parts of the law, a gospel, in fact, that the scripture informs us, will PUT YOU UNDER A CURSE!
Are you just kidding? You have been pointed to the scriptures that state that very thing that you say does not exist. God did not create sin and the law EXPOSES sin. God made a way out of the predicament of all flesh and offered His own Son for a once and forever sin offering and you REFUSE it! God help you. This is as serious as life and death because one is death, the law which no one can keep so therefore it cannot save, and the sacrifice that God provided which does save forever and gives new life even while we are on this earth. You know, I doubt you will keep on hearing this forever because if the gospel falls on deaf ears, if the seed falls on shallow ground or deception covers the eyes, the refusal will become more apparent and the heart will become ever harder while telling itself it is saved and everyone else is wrong.
These interpretations of scripture are all from man using fleshly reason, not from statements of the Lord. The Jews did this. One of their laws was about how far you could go on a Sabbath. They used scripture to back up their decision. Another was to not help a man in trouble on the Sabbath, and scripture tells of that one. You are following men, not God and raking me over the coals, judging and condemning me because I follow what scripture tells me.
Oh the irony and the hypocrisy of this statement above. YOU USE scripture all the time to tell others how wrong they are, how they misunderstand while you do understand. You misquote and you DELIBERATELY twist what is said to you.
Madame, it is YOU that is following error and not those of us who consistently and with obvious patience, although you have proven to dislike our words AND scripture, point out to you what the scriptures of the NT declare, that there is no more sacrifice and no more need to follow the institutions of the Jews in the OT.
If you think there are coals under your feet, I would suggest to you it is the Holy Spirit appealing to you to turn from your error
May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ be glorified in all He has done and in all He has provided
1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law in all He has done and in all He has provided.
This is what Paul says about people who speak against righteousness that is the law: 2 Cor. 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
Romans 7:12 Why the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Acts 3:19 Repent you therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Matt. 5:17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
This is what Paul says about people who speak against righteousness that is the law: 2 Cor. 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
Romans 7:12 Why the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Acts 3:19 Repent you therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Matt. 5:17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
L
all you are doing is posting verses devoid of their place in what else was said. nothing above props up your beliefs at all
as for Matt 5:17, if Jesus fulfilled the law, then why are YOU trying to bring it back?
one of the easiest ways to be led into error, is to take verses out of context in order to attempt to prop up what one personally believes that verse is saying. The Bible is not open to your personal interpretation and as long as you view it that way, you will continue in your error
We are all lawbreakers.
I cannot speak for Blik, but I can say this. When a believer says that they try to be obedient to the commandments it is not for justification.
I am FULLY aware that keeping the ten commandments does not justify me. But Jesus taught to obey the commandments, HE kept all of the commandments and His apostles preached keeping the commandments. Faith without works is dead. The work is obedience. The work is developing the nature of Christ within by the power of the Spirit so that we may become more like Him. Being like HIM, entails obedience to the Father. If you are asked to identify, confess, and repent from your sins, how do you know what sin is in your life if you ignore God's dictionary and explanation of just what sin is? As it is written, sin is the transgression of the law.
To turn away from sin one must own it first. Then fix it. It is not for justification, sanctification or salvation, it is because that what Jesus taught and did, therefore I must.
Finally, the law was not nailed to the cross. Poor exegesis has led to this false doctrine in the denominations of the world.
The death penalty, the curse, was nailed to the cross. Our death sentence was overturned and union with God is now possible.
This cannot be done in one's life if they refuse to accept that the God of Israel expects us to obey Him.
I cannot speak for Blik, but I can say this. When a believer says that they try to be obedient to the commandments it is not for justification.
I am FULLY aware that keeping the ten commandments does not justify me. But Jesus taught to obey the commandments, HE kept all of the commandments and His apostles preached keeping the commandments. Faith without works is dead. The work is obedience. The work is developing the nature of Christ within by the power of the Spirit so that we may become more like Him. Being like HIM, entails obedience to the Father. If you are asked to identify, confess, and repent from your sins, how do you know what sin is in your life if you ignore God's dictionary and explanation of just what sin is? As it is written, sin is the transgression of the law.
To turn away from sin one must own it first. Then fix it. It is not for justification, sanctification or salvation, it is because that what Jesus taught and did, therefore I must.
Finally, the law was not nailed to the cross. Poor exegesis has led to this false doctrine in the denominations of the world.
The death penalty, the curse, was nailed to the cross. Our death sentence was overturned and union with God is now possible.
This cannot be done in one's life if they refuse to accept that the God of Israel expects us to obey Him.
Good heav
My heavens above, now you are preaching scripture is devoid of it's place!
There is scripture telling us the Law of Moses is cancelled, and there is lots of scripture telling us the law is not cancelled. Scripture is correct, it is up to us to discover how both of these scriptures can be true.
I decided to search until I found the answer to that. It took months, but I discovered that they are both true. It is in discovering what the "Law of Moses" meant to Paul and why it means something different in today's world and in the world of Paul. Scripture backs my findings.
There is scripture telling us the Law of Moses is cancelled, and there is lots of scripture telling us the law is not cancelled. Scripture is correct, it is up to us to discover how both of these scriptures can be true.
I decided to search until I found the answer to that. It took months, but I discovered that they are both true. It is in discovering what the "Law of Moses" meant to Paul and why it means something different in today's world and in the world of Paul. Scripture backs my findings.
L
you are so far past reason that you are trying to tell us that when I or someone else (because we both know you have been told the same by others.) states that scripture should not be taken out of context, you scramble it to mean we are saying scripture is devoid of its place?
this is remarkable in its' error but may explain why you reach the conclusions that you do, or at least partly explain.
the law is FULFILLED!!! no one said cancelled. it does not apply to believers in Christ but certainly does apply to those who are not saved. however, if you put yourself back under the law, having accepted Christ, then, you have cursed yourself with death
you cannot have both Christ and dinker around with law keeping
Paul as a Jew, believed the law held sway over his life and he as a Jew, was answerable to that law. However, when he became a Christian, he wrote the book of Galatians, among quite a few other letters or now books as we call them, he asked the Galatians who had bewitched them that they now were returning to their fleshly works when they had started by the Holy Spirit, see Galatians 1 for that truth
you are actually the one who is scrambling the very clear words of the New Testament which is the New Covenant in Christ Jesus
Christians are not a part of the Old Covenant and if someone thinks they are a part of that, then they need to repent and turn from that error because God will not have filthy human works as a part of His perfect salvation plan
It's what we're obedient to that matters. Blik, if I understand him, is obedient to the law of Moses thinking that it is the law that is in force. To be obedient to that covenant is to treat the blood of the covenant as unholy as if Jesus' work on the cross accomplished nothing.
Jesus' commandments are not the 613 laws in Sinai, they're not even the 10 commandments. The covenant of law that brought the death sentence was nailed to the cross, as I said though for full treatment of this requires far more than can be accomplished on a forum like this.
I do not in any way deny obedience, in fact I've been in an ongoing discussion with several members over on the Not By Works thread stating exactly that. But what we are to be obedient to is not the covenant God made with the Israelites in exchange for being their exclusive sovereign. That covenant has been terminated and a new one inaugurated that allows the true heirs of Abraham into the kingdrom, a kingdom that is united by faith.
If your obedience is to the law of Moses it is not with Christ, but with the law that ministers death. It is not obedience leading to life, but obedience that leads to death since returning to the law is reviving the old creation and allowing sin to take hold once again. Obey Christ and live, or follow the law to condemnation. Those are the options.
Jesus' commandments are not the 613 laws in Sinai, they're not even the 10 commandments. The covenant of law that brought the death sentence was nailed to the cross, as I said though for full treatment of this requires far more than can be accomplished on a forum like this.
I do not in any way deny obedience, in fact I've been in an ongoing discussion with several members over on the Not By Works thread stating exactly that. But what we are to be obedient to is not the covenant God made with the Israelites in exchange for being their exclusive sovereign. That covenant has been terminated and a new one inaugurated that allows the true heirs of Abraham into the kingdrom, a kingdom that is united by faith.
If your obedience is to the law of Moses it is not with Christ, but with the law that ministers death. It is not obedience leading to life, but obedience that leads to death since returning to the law is reviving the old creation and allowing sin to take hold once again. Obey Christ and live, or follow the law to condemnation. Those are the options.
you have to separate the covenant from the ten commandments. if you assume they are the same when you read scripture, it would create a misunderstanding. perhaps this is where many have been misled. false doctrine has lumped the entire left side of the bible together as superfluous. Rightly divide the Word. Jesus' commandments were exactly what is taught through the ten commandments. the ten commandments define LOVE. Love for God, love for others. He preached it, obeyed it, lived it, and taught His apostles to do the same. The came 'out of' Judaism, being sanctified by the final sacrifice, the blood of the Lamb. They kept the gospel that was first taught to them. So did much of the 1st-century congregations. But paul warned there were already false prophets among them. He warned to keep the faith that once was taught. He is speaking of the gospel of the Kingdom, which is what Jesus preached. That teaches that once we believe, there is work to do to prepare for the kingdom.
It is how I put my faith to work. By searching His word and seeing how He wants me to live. My King is my example. He obeyed the Law, kept the feasts, observed the Sabbath and His disciples did too. So shall I.
It is how I put my faith to work. By searching His word and seeing how He wants me to live. My King is my example. He obeyed the Law, kept the feasts, observed the Sabbath and His disciples did too. So shall I.
While the 10 commandments certainly are in line with God's heart, they were explicitly a part of the giving of the Sinai covenant and were the lynchpin for all the rest of the 603 laws laid out in the rest. They are not in force as the 10 commandments, but as you mention Jesus did illuminate the Spirit behind them and heightened them beyond the level at which they were presented.
Nothing I've said has been to diminish the importance of reading and understanding the Old Testament, in fact I agree a lot of what's wrong with modern theology is a lack of understanding of the Old Testament in its own terms.
Sinai is not an eternal law, it came into being at one point and while long lasting its usefulness reached its end when it brought sin to the full at the cross. It does help to reveal the eternal law of God, but it is a law external to us whereas Christ's law is internal. Christ's law not only deals with the actions but also with the intentions and is based not on precepts but on the person of Christ. Christ didn't merely obey the laws of Sinai, and as I said earlier there is some argument as to whether he actually broke the Sabbath or if He merely broke the halakah but what's clear is He never once was out of step with God's eternal law.
To obey Christ is to be a disciple, but again returning to Moses is not obedience to Christ but treating the blood which purifies and seals us as an unholy thing.
Nothing I've said has been to diminish the importance of reading and understanding the Old Testament, in fact I agree a lot of what's wrong with modern theology is a lack of understanding of the Old Testament in its own terms.
Sinai is not an eternal law, it came into being at one point and while long lasting its usefulness reached its end when it brought sin to the full at the cross. It does help to reveal the eternal law of God, but it is a law external to us whereas Christ's law is internal. Christ's law not only deals with the actions but also with the intentions and is based not on precepts but on the person of Christ. Christ didn't merely obey the laws of Sinai, and as I said earlier there is some argument as to whether he actually broke the Sabbath or if He merely broke the halakah but what's clear is He never once was out of step with God's eternal law.
To obey Christ is to be a disciple, but again returning to Moses is not obedience to Christ but treating the blood which purifies and seals us as an unholy thing.
When I say Sinai I mean the entire covenant, all of the laws including the 10 commandments, all of the benefits of obedience to those laws, the exclusive claim on God of the Israeli people, the curses that were earned for breaking the covenant. These things were limited to a people living in a place in time.
God's word absolutely is eternal, but the laws governing the theocracy of Israel are only eternal in the spirit that inspired them. We can grow in our understanding of God by studying them as a historical revelation but they have no effect since there is no longer a nation of Israel that fits with the Biblical Israel.
God has made several covenants, the 3 most significant to us being the one with Abraham which was unconditional and brought the promise, then was Sinai which served as the instrument, and finally we have the new covenant that serves as the realization of the promises and was inaugurated with the blood of Christ and will be culminated when the new Jerusalem descends from the clouds.
God's word absolutely is eternal, but the laws governing the theocracy of Israel are only eternal in the spirit that inspired them. We can grow in our understanding of God by studying them as a historical revelation but they have no effect since there is no longer a nation of Israel that fits with the Biblical Israel.
God has made several covenants, the 3 most significant to us being the one with Abraham which was unconditional and brought the promise, then was Sinai which served as the instrument, and finally we have the new covenant that serves as the realization of the promises and was inaugurated with the blood of Christ and will be culminated when the new Jerusalem descends from the clouds.
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