Christians and the Law of Moses

[lenna]

Is there a difference between the covenant God made with Noah and his children and the one God made with the Hebrews through Moses?

there are three main covenants and several others

there are the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant and the NEW Covenant made through the blood of Jesus and others but these are the main ones

people should know that as it is basic Bible 101 and probably most do, but then we have the addendum folks who just cannot get over the fact that they cannot earn salvation

 

[lenna]

I agree, the law is much more than guidance, but it is also much more than law.

I don't think there is universal understanding of what the Lord means by nailed t the cross. Sin has no power to kill through what Christ did, but what scripture tells us is law still is to have a very powerful force in our life. When we give ourselves to Christfor forgiveness, we take on His spirit, and we cannot have our affections on both sin and Christ. The law explains His spirit in human form. When people say it is cancelled, it is a misinterpretation of what has happened.

well, it would probably true for you to state the law is also much more than law because that is what you have made it to be in your own life; it is apparently your choice to do that

Paul states he is dead to the law and you are overwriting his words

you are giving yourself more credibility than an Apostle which indicates you either have no use for Paul or you think you a greater Apostle

15We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile ‘sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, does that make Christ a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18If I rebuild what I have already torn down, I prove myself to be a lawbreaker.

19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God. 20I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the law, Christ died for nothing. Galatians 2

Galatians was written to people who started to follow after the flesh rather than the Spirit. Following after law is following after the flesh and the law indicated .

We do not 'take on' Jesus spirit either. We receive the Holy Spirit, the same One that Jesus said the Father would send after He, Jesus, returned to the Father.

All that I wrote can be found exactly in scripture as I wrote it so I conclude that you either do not put any credence in the words of Paul, quite a few lawkeepers do not, OR you do not understand what he wrote.

It can only be one or the other.

When people say it is cancelled, it is a misinterpretation of what has happened

I just proved otherwise from the quote from the book of Galatians. It seems you are doing the misinterpreting

 

[Blik]

what I said is clearly written as I described it and clearly twisted and fabrications inserted by you when you thought you had to respond

post 10
Jesus fulfilled the law. All of it.

The OT is the foundation of the Bible, but the NT is the fine edifice built upon it.

you are digging at the basement and damaging the building, or actually just confusing things

you responded with post 11

I think you are distorting God's word by misinterpreting the word fulfill.

God promised blood he gave on the altar for atonement and later salvation from our sin, and Jesus fulfilled that promise. By saying fulfill, it does not say cancelled, but now is in full force the opposite of cancelled.

The OT is more than the first chapters of a book of life, it gives an explanation of all Christ did. By snubbing your nose on that, it is not ignoring what is in the basement, it is ignoring Christ and the explanation of what He fulfilled.

CLEARLY, you have misrepresented what I said.

1. I said the OT is the foundation for the NT. YOU referred to a few chapters in Genesis as though I had said that when referred to the ENTIRE Old Testament

2. Fulfilled does not mean cancelled as you try to infer I said that; what is cancelled is the debt we owed for our sins to be forgiven AND above your personal objections, that means JESUS pleased God in all that He did, the law was never broken by Him and His blood alone atones for sin and no amount of law keeping or emphasis helps that along

3. you insult me and say I am snubbing my nose on the OT. AFTER I have said it is the foundation of the NT.

you do not deserve consideration here if you cannot even respond in a truthful manner to what others write. you CONSISTENTLY fabricate and distort what others say and LIE and say we have ignored Jesus while you lie about what is being said by others

And I know you are distorting God's word and adding to it men's decisions that are against God's decisions. But you and I are just what God calls men, God will judge us. In the meantime we are joined in Christ.

 

[Blik]

God is Holy and just and the covenants God makes with us are also ALL just and Holy. God told us to cut flesh as a sign we belong to Him, and God said to be sure meat we eat isn't from garbage as a sign to keep holy food for our minds, but now God gave something new to tell us about His laws and those things are obsolete.

That does NOT mean that His covenants are not holy and good and everlasting. To say they are not is opposing God your creator.

 

[Bbrdrd]

God is Holy and just and the covenants God makes with us are also ALL just and Holy. God told us to cut flesh as a sign we belong to Him, and God said to be sure meat we eat isn't from garbage as a sign to keep holy food for our minds, but now God gave something new to tell us about His laws and those things are obsolete.

That does NOT mean that His covenants are not holy and good and everlasting. To say they are not is opposing God your creator.

While this topic is far too expansive for full treatment on a forum like this, the Mosaic covenant was never actually promised to be eternal and was always conditioned on Israel keeping their end.

All of the 10 commandments are re-stated in the gospels and other places in the New Testament except the Sabbath, though, and we are still under the law of Christ. This is an eternal law as it existed prior to any covenants being made and will exist into eternity due as it is fundamental to God's nature. Many mistake the statutes and precepts of the Mosaic covenant for this law, but it is not the same thing.

The Mosaic covenant brought us awareness of sin through consciousness of the law and through the fulfillment of that covenant righteousness was revealed in Jesus who obeyed God's law perfectly, yet there are instances where it can be argued He violated the letter of the law while embodying its spirit.

Understanding Paul's writings in context with Old Testament themes reveals the Mosaic covenant never was intended to bring righteousness in its own sake but to bring sin to its full sinfulness in condemning the Righteous. Yet righteousness was revealed in the resurrection as God demonstrated the injustice of the cross would not stand.

 

[lenna]

And I know you are distorting God's word and adding to it men's decisions that are against God's decisions. But you and I are just what God calls men, God will judge us. In the meantime we are joined in Christ.

no Blik. I am protecting others from your lies and distortion. You have lied and misrepresented me and you distort and now you call God into action.

Remember you said that

No Blik we are not joined in Jesus because you preach a different Jesus than the one in the Bible

 

[Blik]

While this topic is far too expansive for full treatment on a forum like this, the Mosaic covenant was never actually promised to be eternal and was always conditioned on Israel keeping their end.

All of the 10 commandments are re-stated in the gospels and other places in the New Testament except the Sabbath, though, and we are still under the law of Christ. This is an eternal law as it existed prior to any covenants being made and will exist into eternity due as it is fundamental to God's nature. Many mistake the statutes and precepts of the Mosaic covenant for this law, but it is not the same thing.

The Mosaic covenant brought us awareness of sin through consciousness of the law and through the fulfillment of that covenant righteousness was revealed in Jesus who obeyed God's law perfectly, yet there are instances where it can be argued He violated the letter of the law while embodying its spirit.

Understanding Paul's writings in context with Old Testament themes reveals the Mosaic covenant never was intended to bring righteousness in its own sake but to bring sin to its full sinfulness in condemning the Righteous. Yet righteousness was revealed in the resurrection as God demonstrated the injustice of the cross would not stand.

We are differing in understanding. I don't believe that God has taken back any promise or covenant God ever made, including the Mosaic. There are things that Moses told the Israelites to do. They were a wild bunch and Egyptians had escaped Pharaoh with them and God was training them to be His people. Some of the training is obsolete, it is what Paul spoke of.

All the law can be explained by the word love. Every law that is eternal and part of the covenant that is eternal has love. The blessings and curses promised are true today, for we have eternal blessings in salvation and we also need to pay (go to jail) for our sins on this earth. The salvation system took care of atonement that later became salvation, so the curses told of in this covenant had nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Bbrdrd]

We are differing in understanding. I don't believe that God has taken back any promise or covenant God ever made, including the Mosaic. There are things that Moses told the Israelites to do. They were a wild bunch and Egyptians had escaped Pharaoh with them and God was training them to be His people. Some of the training is obsolete, it is what Paul spoke of.

All the law can be explained by the word love. Every law that is eternal and part of the covenant that is eternal has love. The blessings and curses promised are true today, for we have eternal blessings in salvation and we also need to pay (go to jail) for our sins on this earth. The salvation system took care of atonement that later became salvation, so the curses told of in this covenant had nothing to do with salvation.

While you may not believe it, it's clear in the Scripture that Moses' covenant was a conditional one. The promise is specifically to the nation of Israel and was sealed by circumcision. The promises of the Sinai covenant were not eternal, but explicitly linked to a people that no longer exist living in a land they no longer possess. And the curses of that covenant were earned, with God giving the divorce decree in Jeremiah and enacting the curse of dispersion.
This was never re-established, as is evidenced by the fact that the presence of God did not return to the 2nd temple. The Israelites did everything they could in their power and developed a new identity but the divorce was all but final. And it became completely final with the nailing of Jesus to the cross which nailed the exclusive covenant with the tribes of Israel and Judah to it bringing it to completion.
It is finished, the covenant divorce finalized and a new, better covenant replacing it. The veil is torn and now those who are in covenant with God are in a covenant of promise rather than performance. God is our God because we submit to be transformed by Him and He lives in us no longer in a temple.
A lot of what the Sinai covenant accomplished has been seriously misunderstood Everything about it is inferior to that which is present now, and to cling to it is to place yourself under a curse.

 

[Blik]

While you may not believe it, it's clear in the Scripture that Moses' covenant was a conditional one. The promise is specifically to the nation of Israel and was sealed by circumcision. The promises of the Sinai covenant were not eternal, but explicitly linked to a people that no longer exist living in a land they no longer possess. And the curses of that covenant were earned, with God giving the divorce decree in Jeremiah and enacting the curse of dispersion.
This was never re-established, as is evidenced by the fact that the presence of God did not return to the 2nd temple. The Israelites did everything they could in their power and developed a new identity but the divorce was all but final. And it became completely final with the nailing of Jesus to the cross which nailed the exclusive covenant with the tribes of Israel and Judah to it bringing it to completion.
It is finished, the covenant divorce finalized and a new, better covenant replacing it. The veil is torn and now those who are in covenant with God are in a covenant of promise rather than performance. God is our God because we submit to be transformed by Him and He lives in us no longer in a temple.
A lot of what the Sinai covenant accomplished has been seriously misunderstood Everything about it is inferior to that which is present now, and to cling to it is to place yourself under a curse.

Our misunderstanding is pretty deep.

I feel certain that Israel was always open to all men who accepted the one true God. Scripture states this many time, that God was speaking to all men. Israel is still open to us. So the conditional covenants are given to us--hate and we bring on curses in this life, love and we bring on rewards.

Scripture is history, but there is always a spiritual message for us in the history. Israel must be thought of in this way to truly understand. We need to know about Israel the nation, it is truth. But Israel is a spiritual message to all of us, always was.

 

[Batyah]

Our misunderstanding is pretty deep.

I feel certain that Israel was always open to all men who accepted the one true God. Scripture states this many time, that God was speaking to all men. Israel is still open to us. So the conditional covenants are given to us--hate and we bring on curses in this life, love and we bring on rewards.

Scripture is history, but there is always a spiritual message for us in the history. Israel must be thought of in this way to truly understand. We need to know about Israel the nation, it is truth. But Israel is a spiritual message to all of us, always was.

Is it not repeatedly stated that we are to be considered grafted into the tree? This is the spiritual Israel of God. The church God began in the wilderness. Whether of Hebrew descent or biologically from one of the twelve tribes or ethnically belonging to one of the other nations (also known as a gentile), once you commit to serving and worshipping the God of Israel, then you have to know who the God of Israel is. Confessing and accepting the Blood of the Passover Lamb is the first step to salvation.

I'm reminded of the verse, 'not all who from Israel ARE Israel.' That tells me that God is speaking of a different Israel than the physical nation of peoples from one of the twelve tribes of Jacob. The Messiah said He came for the lost sheep of Israel. He was not strictly speaking of unbelieving jews. He was speaking of harvesting what He planted, spiritual Israel. When the scripture says to bless Israel and pray for Israel, it was not speaking of the geo-political state formed around Jerusalem in 1948 called Israel. It was speaking of His Israel. Those who were His. and to reject THAT Israel is to reject the God of the Bible.
Let's keep in mind Blik that the gate is narrow. The Word says the WHOLE WORLD is deceived. Surely that wasn't talking about just all the 'non-christians.'

Sometimes it's good to just kick the dust from your feet and move on sister.
See ya around.

 

[iamsoandso]

there are three main covenants and several others

there are the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant and the NEW Covenant made through the blood of Jesus and others but these are the main ones

people should know that as it is basic Bible 101 and probably most do, but then we have the addendum folks who just cannot get over the fact that they cannot earn salvation

Then in Scripture is the NC, an, new covenant made with all of mankind or only to the Israelite's... https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/15.htm ?

 

[Bbrdrd]

Our misunderstanding is pretty deep.

I feel certain that Israel was always open to all men who accepted the one true God. Scripture states this many time, that God was speaking to all men. Israel is still open to us. So the conditional covenants are given to us--hate and we bring on curses in this life, love and we bring on rewards.

Scripture is history, but there is always a spiritual message for us in the history. Israel must be thought of in this way to truly understand. We need to know about Israel the nation, it is truth. But Israel is a spiritual message to all of us, always was.

No misunderstanding, you're simply twisting Scripture to your own demise. If the covenant with Israel was not exclusive then there would be no need for passages such as Matthew 21:33-45 and Matthew 22:1-14.

The promises and benefits of Sinai were inferior to those of the new covenant and chasing the old covenant merely brings its curse upon you. You cannot serve two masters.

 

[Blik]

Is it not repeatedly stated that we are to be considered grafted into the tree? This is the spiritual Israel of God. The church God began in the wilderness. Whether of Hebrew descent or biologically from one of the twelve tribes or ethnically belonging to one of the other nations (also known as a gentile), once you commit to serving and worshipping the God of Israel, then you have to know who the God of Israel is. Confessing and accepting the Blood of the Passover Lamb is the first step to salvation.

I'm reminded of the verse, 'not all who from Israel ARE Israel.' That tells me that God is speaking of a different Israel than the physical nation of peoples from one of the twelve tribes of Jacob. The Messiah said He came for the lost sheep of Israel. He was not strictly speaking of unbelieving jews. He was speaking of harvesting what He planted, spiritual Israel. When the scripture says to bless Israel and pray for Israel, it was not speaking of the geo-political state formed around Jerusalem in 1948 called Israel. It was speaking of His Israel. Those who were His. and to reject THAT Israel is to reject the God of the Bible.
Let's keep in mind Blik that the gate is narrow. The Word says the WHOLE WORLD is deceived. Surely that wasn't talking about just all the 'non-christians.'

Sometimes it's good to just kick the dust from your feet and move on sister.
See ya around.

When I said that it is repeatedly stated that in the OT God was speaking to all men I am referring to the times God state his directions were for both Jews and gentiles. To check me on this use you concordance to look up strangers.

I truly think that when God speaks to us in scripture every single verse is true historically (except parables) and can be taken literally, but all literal verses have a spiritual, and even a hidden meaning. I don't think that God ever did anything that didn't include loving and wanting the gentiles to accept Him. I think that is especially true of all scripture about the escape from Egypt.

I once went on a special study retreat for my painting hobby, and most of the others were Jewish. As we became friends they were amazed when I told them we worshipped the same God, and that I knew of Moses.

 

[Blik]

No misunderstanding, you're simply twisting Scripture to your own demise. If the covenant with Israel was not exclusive then there would be no need for passages such as Matthew 21:33-45 and Matthew 22:1-14.

The promises and benefits of Sinai were inferior to those of the new covenant and chasing the old covenant merely brings its curse upon you. You cannot serve two masters.

If you are correct that all the promises of the Lord under Moses is all inferior and believe all the old covenants are to bring curses, then all humanity is in serious trouble.

I trust the Lord as Holy and good, made of love the same yesterday and today. I don't believe in an unholy God. I also don't believe in a God that judges according to the nationality parents. God created the Hebrew race to show his ways to the nations, and I truly believe the Lord includes me as a gentile, and has always wanted to include gentiles.

 

[Bbrdrd]

If you are correct that all the promises of the Lord under Moses is all inferior and believe all the old covenants are to bring curses, then all humanity is in serious trouble.

I trust the Lord as Holy and good, made of love the same yesterday and today. I don't believe in an unholy God. I also don't believe in a God that judges according to the nationality parents. God created the Hebrew race to show his ways to the nations, and I truly believe the Lord includes me as a gentile, and has always wanted to include gentiles.

The promises of the old covenant are all inferior and always have been. The life promised at Sinai is not eternal life but a comfortable mortal life, the land promised is fertile land in this life rather than the new Jerusalem that comes down at the end of Revelation, the communion with God was with a veil separating men from Him. All of the promises of the old covenant will perish, but the promise of the new is Jesus eternally.

I trust the same things you mention, and agree it was always God's plan to include gentiles in the promises to Abraham. But the Sinai covenant was not the realization of the promises to Abraham but the means to its realization. It was a tool intended for a purpose, a purpose that has been revealed and as such it has been rendered needless. Today all that's left of Sinai is its curses and any who seek to live under that covenant treat the blood of the new covenant as unholy and trample the Son of God underfoot.

You do not honor God by living under Moses but instead despise Jesus' mission and ministry.

 

[Blik]

The promises of the old covenant are all inferior and always have been. The life promised at Sinai is not eternal life but a comfortable mortal life, the land promised is fertile land in this life rather than the new Jerusalem that comes down at the end of Revelation, the communion with God was with a veil separating men from Him. All of the promises of the old covenant will perish, but the promise of the new is Jesus eternally.

I trust the same things you mention, and agree it was always God's plan to include gentiles in the promises to Abraham. But the Sinai covenant was not the realization of the promises to Abraham but the means to its realization. It was a tool intended for a purpose, a purpose that has been revealed and as such it has been rendered needless. Today all that's left of Sinai is its curses and any who seek to live under that covenant treat the blood of the new covenant as unholy and trample the Son of God underfoot.

You do not honor God by living under Moses but instead despise Jesus' mission and ministry.

Living under Moses is living under Christ, The atonement system was all about Christ, not animal blood. See Lev. 17:11. Moses was saved under this system, see Matt 27:52-53.

You need books on history to back up scripture and find out what the "Law of Moses" meant at the time of Paul.

In order to find the facts of what is obsolete of the old covenant you must search scripture for what Moses taught that we don't use and need any more. Certainly, that is not all that Moses taught.

If what you say about the teaching of Moses is true, then many of the psalms would not be true, for they tell of a God very different from the God you tell of.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Living under Moses is living under Christ...

More nonsense from you since you have absolutely no understanding of Christ and His finished work of redemption.

 

[Blik]

no Blik. I am protecting others from your lies and distortion. You have lied and misrepresented me and you distort and now you call God into action.

Remember you said that

No Blik we are not joined in Jesus because you preach a different Jesus than the one in the Bible

If you are going to Christ, and I am not-- as you say, then retirement years devoted to scripture study would be useless. Is your scripture different from mine? Mine has four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, does yours?

I can't remember all your posts but if you believe in the teachings of the main line churches then please ask yourself if your scripture you have tells you about Easter? The KJV interpreted the word Passover as Easter, that doesn't count. Do you find a passage that says the Law is cancelled? Part of the old covenant is obsolete, what of what Moses taught is obsolete? Find where God makes a statement that the Sabbath day He established is cancelled. I don't mean use fleshly reasoning to come up with this but find that statement by the Lord. If He cancelled it scripture would make that statement. We can use a man made day, or even copy the day the pagans used, but that doesn't mean God cancelled what He created.

These interpretations of scripture are all from man using fleshly reason, not from statements of the Lord. The Jews did this. One of their laws was about how far you could go on a Sabbath. They used scripture to back up their decision. Another was to not help a man in trouble on the Sabbath, and scripture tells of that one. You are following men, not God and raking me over the coals, judging and condemning me because I follow what scripture tells me.

 

[Blik]

More nonsense from you since you have absolutely no understanding of Christ and His finished work of redemption.

I am judged and condemned by the main line church. Christ was condemned for speaking the truth of the Lord. The world does not accept scripture, they accept what is of the flesh.

 

[garee]

Wrong. The Old Testament is made up of the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. The New Testament is separate from those three.

The law is in respect to the old before the time of reformation before the veil was rent. .

The law and the prophets or with the prophets. The two witness of God.

Two represents the witness of God. Like the father and the Son. . one God. The law signified by Moses death the letter and or again with the prophets. Prophets are those who come with the gospel as the power of the law of faith. Using Elijah as a figure introducing the new testament an extension or continuation of the Old . The law cannot divided from its self .

The unseen, Moses and Elijah together, the two witness protect the integrity of the law of God, the Bible.

The teaching Master or power that works in a believer..

Many time in a parable Christ hid the spiritual understanding from the apostles to help teach them how to walk by His faith working in them to hear God .Each time he uses the same two witnesses

Luke 9:32-34 King James Version (KJV) But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

In another parable (no man can serve "Two Masters" Christ refuting necromancy those who seek after the dead to commune with the living like the Catholic Patron saints the Bible calls workers with a familiar spirit.

Luke16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Twice the Holy Spirit emphasizes the law of faith to those who sought after anther Master. Therefore they did not hear the gospel and believe God not seen . . .no salvation.

Luke16:29:31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Wrong. The word of God will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8).

Yes, his promises last forever. But the letter of the law death and the suffering it causes the pangs of hell will be cast into the lake of fire. It will not rise up and condemn through corruption another entire creation .

The things of death will not be remembered or ever come to mind forever more.

Those two witness will be silenced according to Revelations for a short period when Satan is loosed to deceive all the nations as he did before the first century reformation when the veil was rent.. Then the end the last day will come

Many examples of the one source of Christin faith. The law of God, the Bible.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, (he unseen law of faith) did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Together making one perfect law the just and the justifier. Apart from each they can do nothing to raise the dead