Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[PaulChristensen]

Please be not so merciless with us. We are not the enemy. I suppose we met in heaven. And then all differences are gone. Praise the Lord

I have never seen you as the enemy. When I was with Christianforums.com, I had years of debates with two guys, Swordsman1 and Major1 who were avowed Cessationists. I came to enjoy my debates with them, and I missed them when they were absent from a debate, and when they popped up, it was very welcome. They challenged my views to the max and made me think deeply about what I believed. They were always civil and respectful and I considered them my friends on the forum.

We can still love one another on the forum, regardless of whether we agree or not on our theology. I enjoy it when you guys give me a run for my money, and I give it back just as well. We are never going to agree, I know, but if we did agree on everything, I would find the forum boring. It is the conflict that makes involvement interesting.

I think that when some get personal and nasty, it ruins a thread. I call it kicking the player instead of the ball. But dealing with pelicans like that is what the moderators are for, and I have reported nasty personal posts mainly to save the thread from going down the gurgler.

So, keep firing your salvoes, I can take it, and I can give it back as well.

Blessing to you all

 

[PaulChristensen]

Please be not so merciless with us. We are not the enemy. I suppose we met in heaven. And then all differences are gone. Praise the Lord

By the way, there is a book called "Surprised By the Power Of The Spirit" by Jack Deere. He was an avowed Cessationist Bible teacher who ended up becoming a continuist. You may not agree with his conclusions, but you might find it interesting to read about his journey from one to another, and how he became convinced that the gifts of the Spirit are for today after all.

I'm not recommending the book to change your mind about it, but it might be interesting to read about his reasons for moving from Cessationist to Continuist.

 

[CS1]

At the end we will see. What was for the Lords Glory and what not.
In the bible you can find also the princip, that it is not the majority which justify something right.
Yes, our Debating is nothing in compare that people turn to Christ.
Thats why I will finish here.

in the end you will give account for what you did in the flesh

 

[Aidan1]

By the way, there is a book called "Surprised By the Power Of The Spirit" by Jack Deere. He was an avowed Cessationist Bible teacher who ended up becoming a continuist. You may not agree with his conclusions, but you might find it interesting to read about his journey from one to another, and how he became convinced that the gifts of the Spirit are for today after all.

I'm not recommending the book to change your mind about it, but it might be interesting to read about his reasons for moving from Cessationist to Continuist.

The thing is, you can find this of both of this sides. But thank you for polite Tone.
Be blessed

 

[Aidan1]

in the end you will give account for what you did in the flesh

As we all will do!

 

[Guojing]

If it a fact according to God's Word that the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit were not meant to continue through to day, then show me a clear thread of Scripture that supports that 'fact'.

I think the both of you are not getting his point.

Whatever church you, or CS1 are attending now, do you regularly see the signs that Jesus did to prove to John the Baptist disciples that he is the promised Son of God?

Do you see, Luke 7:22

the blind see,
the lame walk,
the lepers are cleansed,
the deaf hear,
the dead are raised

in whatever church the 2 of you are attending?

What Ronair is saying that, every Christian, if they are being honest, will admit that these don't happen now, not even sometimes.

Now it is of course possible for one to point out some anecdotal evidence of such miracles happening in the rest of the world, but then no one here is denying that God can still do miracles like these.

But what we are saying is that these are no longer happening, on demand, anymore. The era of signs and wonders are put on hold for now, until the Tribulation years.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I think the both of you are not getting his point.

Whatever church you, or CS1 are attending now, do you regularly see the signs that Jesus did to prove to John the Baptist disciples that he is the promised Son of God?

Do you see, Luke 7:22

the blind see,
the lame walk,
the lepers are cleansed,
the deaf hear,
the dead are raised

in whatever church the 2 of you are attending?

What Ronair is saying that, every Christian, if they are being honest, will admit that these don't happen now, not even sometimes.

Now it is of course possible for one to point out some anecdotal evidence of such miracles happening in the rest of the world, but then no one here is denying that God can still do miracles like these.

But what we are saying is that these are no longer happening, on demand, anymore. The era of signs and wonders are put on hold for now, until the Tribulation years.

For interest sake, just let me know this:
If the whole of knowledge about what is going on in churches and missions around the world was in the form of a pizza, and your knowledge amounted to a slice of that pizza, how big would that slice be?
I would very much doubt that your slice of the available knowledge would be very big, in fact it would be quite thin. If that is so, then the rest of the "pizza" would be outside of the bounds of your knowledge. This means that there would be a vast amount of available knowledge about what is happening among Christians around the world that you would not have, and miracles, signs and wonders could be taking place within that vast area where your personal knowledge does not reach.

So, to say definitely that signs, wonders and miracles do not happen in these times is based on a miniscule slice of personal knowledge, so, in that case, you don't have enough knowledge to make a generalized assertion of that nature.

It would be like a small caterpillar climbing up a blade of grass on a suburban lawn and then saying, "I have discovered the world!

 

[Evmur]

I accept cessationism

1 - the completed canon fits with the context of Gods revelation in 1 co 13. Also in Ephesians 4.

2 the death of the apostles also completed the work of the Holy Spirit through sign and ministry gifts

3 the objective experience of signs wonders and miracles now is that they are at least very very rare (since God can still work according to His will they are still possible)

If the gifts were for now we should have clear and obvious biblical signs and wonders etc

1 - It is in the completed canon that we learned about the Gift of the Holy Spirit and what we may receive from Him

2 - The gifts were not only given to apostles, Stephen was a deacon and God did mighty miracles through him. Paul recieved the Holy Spirit through the ministry of Anias a disciple of Damascas

2 - In the western church signs and wonders may not be the normal experience of christian although I would argue that they are not as rare as you suppose. In other parts of the world God is moving with MIGHTY power ... simply because the people believe

 

[Guojing]

For interest sake, just let me know this:
If the whole of knowledge about what is going on in churches and missions around the world was in the form of a pizza, and your knowledge amounted to a slice of that pizza, how big would that slice be?
I would very much doubt that your slice of the available knowledge would be very big, in fact it would be quite thin. If that is so, then the rest of the "pizza" would be outside of the bounds of your knowledge. This means that there would be a vast amount of available knowledge about what is happening among Christians around the world that you would not have, and miracles, signs and wonders could be taking place within that vast area where your personal knowledge does not reach.

So, to say definitely that signs, wonders and miracles do not happen in these times is based on a miniscule slice of personal knowledge, so, in that case, you don't have enough knowledge to make a generalized assertion of that nature.

It would be like a small caterpillar climbing up a blade of grass on a suburban lawn and then saying, "I have discovered the world!

So you are basically saying that you believe signs and wonders are happening in "some place" around the world, but just not anywhere that is verifiable?

Is that your claim?

 

[PaulChristensen]

1 - It is in the completed canon that we learned about the Gift of the Holy Spirit and what we may receive from Him

2 - The gifts were not only given to apostles, Stephen was a deacon and God did mighty miracles through him. Paul recieved the Holy Spirit through the ministry of Anias a disciple of Damascas

2 - In the western church signs and wonders may not be the normal experience of christian although I would argue that they are not as rare as you suppose. In other parts of the world God is moving with MIGHTY power ... simply because the people believe

Absolutely.

 

[Guojing]

2 - In the western church signs and wonders may not be the normal experience of christian although I would argue that they are not as rare as you suppose. In other parts of the world God is moving with MIGHTY power ... simply because the people believe

Can to tell us which country we see Luke 7:22 happening regularly?

 

[PaulChristensen]

So you are basically saying that you believe signs and wonders are happening in "some place" around the world, but just not anywhere that is verifiable?

Is that your claim?

No. I am saying that you cannot say definitely that they are not happening, because you don't have enough knowledge about what is actually happening around the world.

It was like my mother sitting in her lounge and giving her view about something the city council has done. She would say, "Everyone in our city thinks the council is idiotic for doing that." In fact, she would not know that the whole population of the city would be thinking the way she is. In fact, she was projecting her personal opinion on every other person as if they all thought the same. The truth was that she had her opinion and that was all. The reality might have been that she might have been the only person in the whole city who had that opinion about the city council.

If a healing miracle happened in Christchurch New Zealand, and I told you about it, and you asked for verification, my reasonable and realistic answer to you would be, "What right to you have to ask for the verification? Oh, is it just to satisfy yourself? Sorry, not good enough. I don't recognise you as someone who is qualified to receive verification." But if I was reporting the miracle to my local newspaper, then I would have to provide verification because the newspaper would have the right to it if they are to publish it. Therefore I would give reports from medical professionals and witness statements from family and friends to show that the miracle had actually taken place.

 

[Evmur]

So you are basically saying that you believe signs and wonders are happening in "some place" around the world, but just not anywhere that is verifiable?

Is that your claim?

Can you verify any of the mighty miracles in the bible? the testimony comes with power and conviction of the Holy Spirit and that is the proof. If the power and conviction is not present don't believe it.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Can to tell us which country we see Luke 7:22 happening regularly?

Why? Google is a good research tool to find that information for yourself if you really want to find out.

 

[Evmur]

Can to tell us which country we see Luke 7:22 happening regularly?

regularly?

How regularly did Jesus raise people from death? how many did Peter raise from the dead? how many Paul?

... but there have been instances of people being raised from the dead in modern times. Why do you find it incredible that God should raise the dead?

 

[Guojing]

regularly?

How regularly did Jesus raise people from death? how many did Peter raise from the dead? how many Paul?

... but there have been instances of people being raised from the dead in modern times. Why do you find it incredible that God should raise the dead?

I didn't restrict myself to just resurrection, Luke 7:22 contains all the signs that are expected.

John 20:30 30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe[b] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 21:25 states Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

 

[Guojing]

Why? Google is a good research tool to find that information for yourself if you really want to find out.

So was I correct in saying you believe signs and wonders are happening in "some place" around the world, but just not anywhere that is verifiable?

 

[Guojing]

No. I am saying that you cannot say definitely that they are not happening, because you don't have enough knowledge about what is actually happening around the world.

It was like my mother sitting in her lounge and giving her view about something the city council has done. She would say, "Everyone in our city thinks the council is idiotic for doing that." In fact, she would not know that the whole population of the city would be thinking the way she is. In fact, she was projecting her personal opinion on every other person as if they all thought the same. The truth was that she had her opinion and that was all. The reality might have been that she might have been the only person in the whole city who had that opinion about the city council.

If a healing miracle happened in Christchurch New Zealand, and I told you about it, and you asked for verification, my reasonable and realistic answer to you would be, "What right to you have to ask for the verification? Oh, is it just to satisfy yourself? Sorry, not good enough. I don't recognise you as someone who is qualified to receive verification." But if I was reporting the miracle to my local newspaper, then I would have to provide verification because the newspaper would have the right to it if they are to publish it. Therefore I would give reports from medical professionals and witness statements from family and friends to show that the miracle had actually taken place.

If that is the case, then I can understand why ronair and the 2 of you don't see convergence in your discussion.

Alright then.

 

[Guojing]

If a healing miracle happened in Christchurch New Zealand, and I told you about it, and you asked for verification, my reasonable and realistic answer to you would be, "What right to you have to ask for the verification? Oh, is it just to satisfy yourself? Sorry, not good enough. I don't recognise you as someone who is qualified to receive verification." But if I was reporting the miracle to my local newspaper, then I would have to provide verification because the newspaper would have the right to it if they are to publish it. Therefore I would give reports from medical professionals and witness statements from family and friends to show that the miracle had actually taken place.

Let me repeat what I earlier said to you, regarding anecdotal claims like the one you are saying above

Now it is of course possible for one to point out some anecdotal evidence of such miracles happening in the rest of the world, but then no one here is denying that God can still do miracles like these.

But what we are saying is that these are no longer happening, on demand, anymore. The era of signs and wonders are put on hold for now, until the Tribulation years.

 

[Evmur]

I didn't restrict myself to just resurrection, Luke 7:22 contains all the signs that are expected.

John 20:30 30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe[b] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 21:25 states Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Very good Jesus will perform TODAY many other signs in the presence of His disciples that people may believe that Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God and that by believing they may have life through His name.

I suppose if all that Jesus is doing TODAY were written down that even the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

Miracles are the PROOF. Jesus said if you do not believe Me for My words then believe the miracles.

Miracles make some folks hate Him the more.