Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
- Thread starter ronair
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You are correct. There is no teaching in the New Testament supporting tongues being the initial evidence of the baptism with the Spirit. That doctrine that some Pentecostal churches hold comes from the three examines shown in the book of Acts where tongues accompanied the baptism with the Spirit. But when we look at other teaching by Paul we see that the crucial evidence of the baptism with the Spirit is a transformed heart and life. If a person professes Christianity and shows no evidence of a transformed heart and life, all he might have is religion and not be genuinely converted to Christ, which also includes the baptism with the Spirit.
The belief that this is no longer the day of miracles comes from the philosophy of Aristotle, the pagan Greek, who said that if it can't be shown through empirical evidence then it is not real. This is the basis of modern science, and has also corrupted many branches of modern theology. Plato's opinions also has influenced the church. He said that the spiritual side of man is more important than the physical. It is this philosophical thinking that has influenced the church to prefer spiritual healing over physical healing.
Many church goers fail to appreciate how the philosophy of these two pagan Greek philosophers have greatly affected the church's thinking about the supernatural and divine healing. Therefore, Cessationism is not based in the Bible at all. It is based on Aristotle and Plato, both pagan Greek philosophers. This is why we don't see the miraculous in most of our churches. They prefer the thinking of pagan Greeks instead of God's Word.
Are you suggesting that I need to provide a "clear thread of Scripture" that proves or disproves a claimed ongoing event?
Are you honestly asking this question? Think really hard about this. Are you that blind to the emperor's nakedness?
It would be absurd of me to demand a "clear thread of Scripture" from you that proves the opposite as well.
How would you respond to a Catholic who wanted a "clear thread of Scripture" that proves their claim of transubstantiation is not real? What verses state that the bread and wine from the priest is not real flesh and blood?
Your argument is baseless and unreasonable.
I'm sorry you don't comprehend the connection. You are speaking about denominations who came out of the Revival in 1901-1914.
And it is not the first as you wrongly suggest. If you had understood you would know it was going on for years well before 1906. There is much documentation of moves of God it was NOT until it BEcame a Movement that there was an issue.
Again you need to learn how to understand the full history of what you don't know but are saying what you were told. I am a certified pentacostel minister, and that did not save me as tongues did not either. The teaching of "initial evidence" is what is seen in scripture.
You may not like it but even the BAPTIST DO NOT HAVE ISSUE WITH US ACCEPT ONENESS WHICH I AM NOT. You have issues with those who are clowns on TV take it up with them. The Holy Spirit is alive and well and working in the Body of Christ and HE has not stopped.
You and others keep saying " that not the topic " yet it was you who brought up "Initial evidence" how does that work in the topic?
it was you who said:
"I don't believe that any denomination ore Reformer was/is to 100% right in their teaching. ( except me
)"That is a very prideful arrogant comment.
This is the teaching of Aristotle, the pagan Greek philosopher, which is the basis of modern science.
I think there is a greater faith in Aristotle and Plato in your church than there is in the Word of God, even though you assert that you have faith in the unseen God of the Bible. But the same "God of the Bible" inspired "These signs shall follow those who believe; they will cast out devils, speak with new tongues, lay hands on the the sick and they shall recover." So if your church doesn't support the gift of tongues, casting out of demons, and divine healing, then your faith is in the god of Aristotle and Plato and not the God of the Bible.
If you can't show me a clear thread of Scripture that shows that the supernatural signs and wonders were not meant to accompany the preaching of the gospel right through to the end of the church age, which is still in the future, then your argument has no foundation.
By the way, Catholics can show through the actual words of Jesus that support their belief that transubstantiation is real. That is the way they interpret it.
But there is absolutely nothing to show that miracles, signs and wonders were ever meant to be temporary. But there is a lot more support in Scripture for continuation of the miracles and supernatural gifts of the Spirit as part of the Church age right through to the second coming of Christ.
Ok:
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall
vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when That Which Is Perfect Is Come, then
that which is in part shall be done away.
I studied and saw three choices?:
(1) The end of ALL evil, And, A "perfect" New Heavens and New earth is come?
(2) At the Second Advent, The "perfect" King of kings, JESUS CHRIST, is come?
(3) God Has Magnified HIS {"perfect"?} Word Above All Of HIS {"perfect"?} Name!
(Psalms 138 : 2 KJB!)
+
God Closes The "perfect"{?} canon of HIS Pure, Inspired, Infallible, And Profitable
Word, Preserving IT for All generations (Psalms 12 :6-7 KJB!), and IT Is Come?
IF I dare "quote Scriptures" pertaining to this matter, instead of Scriptural correction,
I am accused of perverting THEM! {This is a BIBLE Discussion Forum, Correct?}
I humbly forgive the accuser, but, I still have this:
IF God's Preserved, Pure, Inspired, Infallible, And Profitable Word is NOT
"That Which Is PERFECT, And Has Come," then pray tell, what is it?
IF IT is Imperfect, then HOW can I know and trust In The Truth?
Am I Missing Something?
Be Blessed!
you know it was these lofty types that left the faith of the church because they were embarrassed by the acts of some. They gave up the power for intellect and they were very vindictive too. Charles Darwin betrayed the faith and lost his mind because of Romans chapter one.
There was a reason why Darwin said " The sight of a feather in a peacock's tail, whenever I gaze at it, makes me sick!"
why? because looking at testified that God is alive and the creator he was told about in seminary. But Human reasoning and axes to grind cause him to betray the faith and rely on the carnal mind.
A Bunch of dead men speaking in dead churches to dead people. Because they know better than God. Fools!!!
According your statement I am wrong, Correct?I'm sorry you don't comprehend the connection. You are speaking about denominations who came out of the Revival in 1901-1914.
And it is not the first as you wrongly suggest. If you had understood you would know it was going on for years well before 1906. There is much documentation of moves of God it was NOT until it BEcame a Movement that there was an issue.
Again you need to learn how to understand the full history of what you don't know but are saying what you were told. I am a certified pentacostel minister, and that did not save me as tongues did not either. The teaching of "initial evidence" is what is seen in scripture.
You may not like it but even the BAPTIST DO NOT HAVE ISSUE WITH US ACCEPT ONENESS WHICH I AM NOT. You have issues with those who are clowns on TV take it up with them. The Holy Spirit is alive and well and working in the Body of Christ and HE has not stopped.
You and others keep saying " that not the topic " yet it was you who brought up "Initial evidence" how does that work in the topic?
it was you who said:
"I don't believe that any denomination ore Reformer was/is to 100% right in their teaching. ( except me
That is a very prideful arrogant comment.
Then show me please ( not only saying) where and when Christians taught and practised what Agnes Ozman expierienced. Please before 1900.
Then tell me which denomination, which church is 100 % right in their understanding and teaching of the bible.
There is non, this is simply an fact. Nothing more.
Very interesting post. I will say God's word was and is perfect from Genesis to REV the moment the Holy Spirit inspired men of old to write it.
But the bible which means books is just that on a table IF one doesn't apply what it says to their life. faith comes by hearing the Word and obeying it. it is God who chose the foolishness of preaching to save the lost.
The word of God is pure, good, holy, true, and right. But it is just a Book until it is acted upon by faith.
Ps 119:9-11
9. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed (obeying) thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Jesus said to Love the Lord thy God with ALL and your neighbor as yourself. And that is a big stretch of and interpretation of 1cor chapter 13:8-10
You just need to read the remaining unit chapter in 12 to 14 and you will see:
39 ".Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order. "
IF you are right that 1cor 13:8-10 means the canonization of the bible Paul ended his context on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit which he was speaking to the gentile church NOT JEWS only, his last instruct was it will stop so expect it to be done away with right?
Nope, something so important as the Word of God paul just threw that our the window and said
"FORBID NOT SPEAKING IN TONGUES", LOL. I bet you all lost your minds over that one huh?
The problem with that theory is that signs and wonders accompanying the preaching of the Gospel is part and parcel of the "perfect" Scriptures. The "perfect" Scriptures quote Jesus as saying that He will send the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) Who will represent Him and remain with them until the end of the Age, But the Holy Spirit did not depart from the church at the end of the Apostolic Age, so He could not have been talking about that. Also, the way that Paul taught about the gifts of the Spirit, he taught that they were integral part and parcel of the Holy Spirit, that they are His 'tools of trade'. There is no mention that these 'tools' were to be withdrawn at the end of the Apostolic age. Paul had no idea of any "canon" of Scripture. He didn't think that what he was writing to the Corinthians was actually adding to the Scriptures he already had.
So to say that the settling of the canon of Scripture caused tongues and prophecy to cease, is contradictory in itself, because of the reasons I have just stated.
Aristotle might say that what cannot be empirically proved is not real, but he was a pagan Greek, and the pagan Greeks treated the Christian gospel as foolishness.
It is interesting that cessationists rubbish Pentecostals and Charismaitcs, but I haven't been an integral part of the Pentecostal or Charismatic movement since 1978, and yet I still pray in tongues and pray for sick people when I get an opportunity. It is because I could see no reason to stop, because these things are not church-based. They are Bible-based. In fact, one of my most powerful intercessions in tongues which saved a woman's life in a British hospital, 12,000 miles from NZ, was when I was an elder in a non-Charismatic Presbyterian church where no one prayed in tongues but me.
When I left my last Charismatic church in 1978, I wondered if my speaking in tongues would cease, but it didn't, and that's when I realised that it was not a "Pentecostalist" gift, but a Bible one.
I believe that cessationists grieve the Holy Spirit through unbelief, and that is why they don't see anything of the supernatural gifts. Their "Gospel" is based on words without power, and they can only gain converts through persuasive words of man's wisdom and Bible bashing. It is no wonder that very few of their converts remain very long, and the children of cessationist parents, even though they were brought up in the church through childhood, actually leave the church and the Christian faith when they leave their parents' home.
I want to make the point that the "perfect" Scriptures are the Greek and Hebrew originals penned by the actual authors. What we have are copies and translations which are by no means absolutely perfect. Even the KJV which is view as "God breathed" by some, was translated from the Latin Vulgate, which was translated by Jerome. It has been shown to have quite a number of imperfections, which have been corrected by more modern translations such as the New American, and Amplified versions.
But because the originals have now been lost through the passage of time, the earliest copies we have date from the 4th Century. So we no longer hold the perfect originals of Scripture. Therefore the "perfect" Scriptures cannot apply to the translations we now have.
again I will tell you to also show men wherein your 13:8-10 the give will be done away with.
Now on to your question SO Paul in 1cor chapter 12 - 14 are not good enough for you on the teaching of the gifts o f the Holy Spirt?
You want me to move past the Bible and into a later time where it was talked to what Tongues are the initial evidence of one who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit outside the word of God?
That is a false narrative and strawman. The teaching is from the Book of Acts as the events unfolded in Acts 2, Acts 10:44-46,and chapter 19
in the early church fathers you will see those like :
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus: he said
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
ORIGEN 253 AD who said :
"On "Therefore one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret" (1 Corinthians 14:13)]: If the one who speaks in tongues does not have the power to interpret them, others will not understand, but he will know what he was moved by the Spirit to say. When this is understood by others as well, there will be fruit from it. Here, as elsewhere, we are taught to seek the common good of the church." COMMENTARY ON 1 CORINTHIANS
HILARY OF POITIERS 359 AD
JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (d. 407), HOMUIESONICOIDNTHMNS He said :
Wherefore then did the apostles receive it [the gift of tongues] before the rest? Because they were to go abroad everywhere. And as in the time of building the tower the one tongue was divided into many; so then the many tongues frequently met in one man, and the same person used to discourse both in the Persian, and the Roman, and the Indian, and many other tongues, the Spirit sounding within him: and the gift was called the gift of tongues because he could all at once speak diverse languages.
PELAGIUS (414), LEITER W DEMETRIAS
said :
"The Holy Spirit fills the soul, like air coming into musical pipes, and the finger of God touches the hearts of his saints like the strings of a harp. When he was poured forth upon the apostles and the community of believers on the day of Pentecost, as he had promised by the Lord, why was it that the Holy"
EUSEBIUS OF EMESA 359 AD
CYRIL OF JERUSALEM 389 AD
JULIAN OF ECCLANUM 450AD
LEO THE GREAT 416AD
and on and on it goes until the crusade and the establishment of the empirical church and the dark ages where it seems God was not moving. From the Bible, both Old and new the Holy Spirit worked in the lives of the people of God and continued as the early church fathers recorded. And God still moved on people in every time, generation, and century as HE does today.
I look forward to your one-liner and great rebuttal.
There was a time the pentcaostel denominations were unlearned and made mistakes, I'm sure that happened with the Disciples and the early church fathers, and the Reformers; they will not admit it. But today we have seminaries, Bible schools, and very good teachers.
And that is very troubling to those on the other side. That is why they try to demonize us and lambast us because Biblically they are not overly knowliedgble as they once were. SO they watch clowns on TV and try to make those types part of all Pentecostals, it will not work anymore. We are people of the word and God has helped us. We don't need to win this debate but we are winning souls for Jesus.
I am not going to say that because although there are what is known as "copiest discrepancies" because of fallible man, God still is able to keep His word. His word is inerrant and infallible. Although there is a minor issue God has provided enough special revelation from what we call the bible for :
- Appropriate worship
- and righteous living
Not God. We are still saved by what we call the gospel that can be seen in the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NLT, AMP, NASB, ESV, and the living Bible. God is able to keep his word in any translation that was committed to him in the origin of it. God honors His word.
No, I think he is asking just that and your pride will not allow you to see that. Transubstantiation who !!!! = means water and wine become the real body and blood of Jesus.
well, in contrast to The Apostles, those in Cornellious house, and the Christians and Paul met on the way All spoke in tongues or prophesied. The RCC just got that wrong about the Lord's Supper
. Whereas the empowering of the Holy Spirit is seen in both the Old and New Testament . how about dat?
Non of them all you mentioned taught it ( even Paul not) and expierienced it. ( except Paul)
I suppose you dont see the different between the gift of speaking in tongues ( which not everybody got- according Paul) and the speaking in tongues as evidence for beeing baptised with the Holy Spirit. Which is taught and expierienced in Topeka first.
And I asked for a proof for the last.