Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
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You are quite wrong, I am asserting nothing. There is no need to assert that which is self-evident. We are not living in an age of the miraculous and this fact does not need to be asserted anymore than the existence of gravity needs to be proven by a text book.
You may reason that since the scriptures teach that the physcial supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit was meant to continue unto today then it must be happening. This is your assertion. It is an assertion without merit. An assertion that by definition should not need to be debated.
The pentecostal movement has been more then willing to turn a blind eye to these facts.
You may reason that since the scriptures teach that the physcial supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit was meant to continue unto today then it must be happening. This is your assertion. It is an assertion without merit. An assertion that by definition should not need to be debated.
The pentecostal movement has been more then willing to turn a blind eye to these facts.
This is a very important verse please read verse 33
33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.
When Jesus you shall be my witnesses in Acts 1:8 The Lord had already risen from the dead and was with them 40 days.
The purpose of the empowering of the Holy Spirit is to testify that Jesus has been raised from the Dead and sign and wonders were done to prove that in the Name of Jesus, dead were made live, blind eyes open, lame walked and demons were cast out.
That Power and Testimony of the Risen Lord is still the same today. Jesus is still saving healing filling and calling and confirming
HE has risen, this happens with signs and wonders. No one in the names of Mohammad, Buda, Confucius, staring at your third eyeball sitting in a transcendental meditation position.
None of that will save you or heal you BUT today Jesus can and does. The same God who hates all other false gods who people worship and seek,
Loves to prove HE is the Living God. And Our God stands by HIS word Completely. Those who say, God doesn't heal today or that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today, coward down to these false beliefs and have only the answer of debate that is the only thing they do.
Debate is not testifying that Jesus has risen from the dead. Praying for the sick in His name, seeing those set free from addictions, and those coming to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ is a true witness. Winning a debate has not saved anyone.
Those who are cessationists have no answer to false beliefs other than debate. They think their intellect will win over the lost.
Pual address these types who have a form of godliness BUT DENY THE POWER THEREOF.
Those who continue to receive more knowledge of the word of God, yet, have no victory in winning souls.
Paul said 2Tim 3:5-7
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
They think the perceived level of biblical knowledge is power, yet they do not put what they have learned into practice, only seek the knowledge out of pride and to win debates.
Are they seeing anyone saved in their churches? No, just attracting those who agree with them. Are they seeing those addicted coming off of drugs? no, because they have hospitals for that. Watch any one of these types on youtube, on TV programs You will not see one person coming to know Jesus. They do no altar calls, they don't preach hell because it offends the pews.
Where is the testimony of lives changed? I have not seen it. The real work of the Church is not done on Tv it is done in the local church that has not enough money to do what those Lofty types do in the PowerPoint presentations
which is an oxymoron. They have no power, so what is the point?
I will take Jesus the gifts of the Holy Spirt the full gospel and seeing people saved every Sunday healed and delivered then
the educated debate that does nothing. They are polished brass but full of dead men's bones. Blind leading the blind heading for the ditch.
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AS YOU TOO CANNOT DO THE same. You have an opinion I will leave you with 1cor 12 where Paul said
"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:" this is ver one now I will provide you with the last verse in chapter 14 which is the final response contextually :
"39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order."
This was all said to gentile Christians. Now I know it will be hard but try to use proper exegesis and ask the question what is the authorial intent?
Paul was speaking to the new Church still in it's early founding. He did not say in the opening statement Now concerning spiritual gifts they will stop. He corrected errors so that they could continue to edify, comfort, and exhort the church as a body Just as the Holy Spirit intended them to do.
You are telling everyone here that Those in the early church at Corinthian needed the gifts of the Holy Spirit but we today don't because we have the Bible.
How absurd.
Our very Lord did not do one miracle until HE received the Holy Spirit without measure why? Jesus relied completely upon the Holy Spirt AS Jesus told the US we are to do also in the gospel of John chapter 14 through 16. read it.
Now you think Paul who was blinded on the road to Damascus received his site filled with the Holy Spirit is now saying in 1corthinthians chapter 13 They will stop and not needed anymore once the bibe has been put together?
Why did not Jesus say that? Is Paul more authoritative than Jesus? Or did Jesus just get t wrong and lied to us when HE said
The Holy Spirit will be with YOU and In you! Why did Jesus not say there is coming a day when the Holy Spirit will not do what He has done through ME?
No, He did not say that. Jesus said the very work that I do you shall do also. Jesus said Go out and preach the gospel to every creature. That was said to the Apostles, right? There is not an application to mean us right today?
I guess we should just hand everyone a bible each Sunday and take up an offering and send them home.
Guess Paul was wrong to say 1cor 1:21
1 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
That is why Paul Said in Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
And in Acts chapter 4:33
33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.
That same Power is still doing what it has always done. As Long as Jesus is preached the death burial and resurrection God will save and still confirm His word with signs and wonders.
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No, I am very much right. You said we are not living in the miraculous(wherein the Bible does it say that>?) is like Joe Biden saying we have no crisis at the border.
The word of God does not say the Holy Spirit has stopped gifting people today. You will not take one's witnesses of seeing the miraculous, and you don't accept what the bible says yet those like you try to assert your opinion in 1cor 13:8-10 that that says they have stopped. Wrong!
I am still waiting for you to show the Verse and chapter where it says God doesn't do it anymore.
None of you can. You have some allegorical translation of 1cor 13:8-10 One verse in the whole Bible. yet you scoff and mocked the recording of many verses of supernatural working of the Holy Spirit in the believer that is for today.
Please, if you have NO Biblical response as I have provided I am not wanting to hear your opinion.
The word of God does not say the Holy Spirit has stopped gifting people today. You will not take one's witnesses of seeing the miraculous, and you don't accept what the bible says yet those like you try to assert your opinion in 1cor 13:8-10 that that says they have stopped. Wrong!
I am still waiting for you to show the Verse and chapter where it says God doesn't do it anymore.
None of you can. You have some allegorical translation of 1cor 13:8-10 One verse in the whole Bible. yet you scoff and mocked the recording of many verses of supernatural working of the Holy Spirit in the believer that is for today.
Please, if you have NO Biblical response as I have provided I am not wanting to hear your opinion.
Actually, I did provide you Biblical scripture of the empowering of the Holy Spirit. And why they are for today and why they have not stopped.
You really have bais of those you disagree with. By your so-called standard of those who are pentacostel and the gift of the Holy Spirt as you say started in Topeka and Azusa, why do you then accept those of the reformation which were well after the Apostolic Age and the Bible canonization? Could not the RCC make the same foolish claims you have made about Pentecostals?
Why should we even consider Luther or John Calvin then? What a hypocrite.
You really have bais of those you disagree with. By your so-called standard of those who are pentacostel and the gift of the Holy Spirt as you say started in Topeka and Azusa, why do you then accept those of the reformation which were well after the Apostolic Age and the Bible canonization? Could not the RCC make the same foolish claims you have made about Pentecostals?
Why should we even consider Luther or John Calvin then? What a hypocrite.
One final thing, I know that you and also 800 000 000 and more Pentecostals and charismatics cant agree with my post.
But, I never deneyed that God is doing miracles and healings today. I believe and trust the word of God, since I became Christian without doubting ore questioning the word of God.
What i am not trusting is man made doctrine, which I cant find in the bible., ore is Puzzled together according manwisedom.
But, I never deneyed that God is doing miracles and healings today. I believe and trust the word of God, since I became Christian without doubting ore questioning the word of God.
What i am not trusting is man made doctrine, which I cant find in the bible., ore is Puzzled together according manwisedom.
Yes, you have, you don't agree that you have seen it up to your satisfaction so it must not be. You say you trust the word of good but yet you do not act upon it? Who is supposed to do what you read in the Word of God? If not you? Don't be hearers only but doers of the word. If you have an issue with man-made doctrine as you say then why do you not have the same standard for the reformers huh>? Were their doctrines from the word of God or man-made? You are biased.
13million of us thank you very much, All Glory to God.
13million of us thank you very much, All Glory to God.
Well, this thread is about cessationism vs. Continuationism and not about denominations ore Reformer.
I dont believe that any denomination ore Reformer was/is to 100% right in their teaching. ( except me 😉)
Btw, i dont know to which wing of pentacostalism you belong, but the number of thise believe in this teaching about the Holy Spirit ( which began in Topeka with the first person)is minimum 800 Mill. worldwide.
I dont believe that any denomination ore Reformer was/is to 100% right in their teaching. ( except me 😉)
Btw, i dont know to which wing of pentacostalism you belong, but the number of thise believe in this teaching about the Holy Spirit ( which began in Topeka with the first person)is minimum 800 Mill. worldwide.
th example is the same. you are suggesting the pentacostel doctrine was not taught in the earlier Church nor as TULIP. of course you would think the Calvinist are 100% right, you have a bias. I don't know what wing of Calvinist you belong to, they have ultra and extreme even racist ones. The teaching of the Holy Spirit did not being in Topeka Jesus taught on the Holy Spirit in John chapter 14 -16 Paul did also. Yes Pentecostals are the fastest-growing church today and doing great things for the lord. You have issues with TV personalities go right ahead. We are feeding the hungry and preaching to those who are bound by drugs and seeing the lost saved. The local paper and local news tell of the great work we are doing in the name of Jesus. What are you and the frozen chosen doing? name-calling and debate. I do not claim to be 100% right either, but the empowering of the Holy Spirit real and for today because HE is needed more now than ever before.
YOu have faith in your intellect and your own knowledge of the word of God that is not faith. the reformers did what we did, looked at the word of God, and ask WHY is the RCC not following the word of God. You are just like those in the past, the reformers were addressing. They too told the reformers no need to study the word of God we will give it to you. You are doing the very same thing.
You create division out of selected names for times of the Church Like the Modern age, yet you will not even address the dark age when God was silent and not moving at all until revival came. Which reformers many of them documented empowerment of the Spirit.
You leave that out why? Because your Topka bais is blown out of the water IF those at Topeka and Azusa asked why can we have what Martin Luther had and others like him in the information, the great awakening,
1ST CENTURY NEW TESTAMENT REVIVAL
THE 18TH CENTURY REVIVAL IN EUROPE
19TH CENTURY REVIVALS
THE FINNEY REVIVALS
THE HOLINESS REVIVAL
many great men came out of this and many great churches were built yet you deny the history that is well seen before 1906 and 1914?
YOu have faith in your intellect and your own knowledge of the word of God that is not faith. the reformers did what we did, looked at the word of God, and ask WHY is the RCC not following the word of God. You are just like those in the past, the reformers were addressing. They too told the reformers no need to study the word of God we will give it to you. You are doing the very same thing.
You create division out of selected names for times of the Church Like the Modern age, yet you will not even address the dark age when God was silent and not moving at all until revival came. Which reformers many of them documented empowerment of the Spirit.
You leave that out why? Because your Topka bais is blown out of the water IF those at Topeka and Azusa asked why can we have what Martin Luther had and others like him in the information, the great awakening,
1ST CENTURY NEW TESTAMENT REVIVAL
THE 18TH CENTURY REVIVAL IN EUROPE
19TH CENTURY REVIVALS
THE FINNEY REVIVALS
THE HOLINESS REVIVAL
many great men came out of this and many great churches were built yet you deny the history that is well seen before 1906 and 1914?
"No, I am very much right"
You are entitled to your opinion.
You said we are not living in the miraculous(wherein the Bible does it say that
Neither I nor the Bible are bound to prove a negative to you.
is like Joe Biden saying we have no crisis at the border.
Wrong, there is much evidence (prima facie) to support the existence of a crisis on the border.
The word of God does not say the Holy Spirit has stopped gifting people today.
Nor does it have to "say" it in order to be true, something you cannot grasp. BTW we are talking about the physical supernatural "gifting" that the Pentecostals claim.
You will not take one's witnesses of seeing the miraculous, and you don't accept what the bible says yet those like you try to assert your opinion in 1cor 13:8-10 that that says they have stopped. Wrong!
Your assertion is one of prima facie. You do not present "witnesses" to a claim that is self-evident, unless of course your claim is false.
I am still waiting for you to show the Verse and chapter where it says God doesn't do it anymore.
Again, neither I nor the Bible needs to prove what is not happening. Your understanding of the verses is wrong as much as the flat-earth Christians are misunderstanding their verses. Your inability to present a prima facie case is proof of this.
None of you can. You have some allegorical translation of 1cor 13:8-10 One verse in the whole Bible. yet you scoff and mocked the recording of many verses of supernatural working of the Holy Spirit in the believer that is for today.
I do not use 1st Cor. 13:8-10 to prove or disprove anything that is an issue of prima facie. This is simply a case of refusing to admit that the emperor is naked.
Please, if you have NO Biblical response as I have provided I am not wanting to hear your opinion.
Your demand for a biblical answer to a prima facie question is but a strawman attempt to avoid the issue. So if you have no response as to why your assertion is not self-evident then I suggest you are purposely blind.
You are entitled to your opinion.
You said we are not living in the miraculous(wherein the Bible does it say that
Neither I nor the Bible are bound to prove a negative to you.
is like Joe Biden saying we have no crisis at the border.
Wrong, there is much evidence (prima facie) to support the existence of a crisis on the border.
The word of God does not say the Holy Spirit has stopped gifting people today.
Nor does it have to "say" it in order to be true, something you cannot grasp. BTW we are talking about the physical supernatural "gifting" that the Pentecostals claim.
You will not take one's witnesses of seeing the miraculous, and you don't accept what the bible says yet those like you try to assert your opinion in 1cor 13:8-10 that that says they have stopped. Wrong!
Your assertion is one of prima facie. You do not present "witnesses" to a claim that is self-evident, unless of course your claim is false.
I am still waiting for you to show the Verse and chapter where it says God doesn't do it anymore.
Again, neither I nor the Bible needs to prove what is not happening. Your understanding of the verses is wrong as much as the flat-earth Christians are misunderstanding their verses. Your inability to present a prima facie case is proof of this.
None of you can. You have some allegorical translation of 1cor 13:8-10 One verse in the whole Bible. yet you scoff and mocked the recording of many verses of supernatural working of the Holy Spirit in the believer that is for today.
I do not use 1st Cor. 13:8-10 to prove or disprove anything that is an issue of prima facie. This is simply a case of refusing to admit that the emperor is naked.
Please, if you have NO Biblical response as I have provided I am not wanting to hear your opinion.
Your demand for a biblical answer to a prima facie question is but a strawman attempt to avoid the issue. So if you have no response as to why your assertion is not self-evident then I suggest you are purposely blind.
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Prima facie is a common term for "at first sight", it is very useful when dealing with physical or legal claims. Learned it in college and have seen many claims both debunked and proven by it. Prima facie was presented by Jesus when asked to prove His claim of being the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 3:16) and Moses and Aaron being sent by God (Exodus 7:8;13).
The "context" of 1st Cor. 13:8-10 has nothing to do with the physcial claims that are being presented by the Pentecostals. As a matter of fact, no scripture has any bearing on issues of prima facie. Prima facie is physical evidence of claims of physcial events. I can not make this any clearer.
I go to a church based on faith without sight, a blessed one as Jesus told Thomas. No miracles, supernatural events or healings, just faith in the unseen God of the Bible. If you go to a church based on claims of physical supernatural manifestations without evidence then you a part of a false church.
The "context" of 1st Cor. 13:8-10 has nothing to do with the physcial claims that are being presented by the Pentecostals. As a matter of fact, no scripture has any bearing on issues of prima facie. Prima facie is physical evidence of claims of physcial events. I can not make this any clearer.
I go to a church based on faith without sight, a blessed one as Jesus told Thomas. No miracles, supernatural events or healings, just faith in the unseen God of the Bible. If you go to a church based on claims of physical supernatural manifestations without evidence then you a part of a false church.
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it does with the doctrine of Cessationism. I am not part of a false church and I would appreciate you suggesting such I do not doubt your faith you will not insult mine here. I will not standby and tolerate it. You are free to leave anytime you like.
If the 1cor 13:8-10 could be substantiated, the claims of initial evidence would be mote. The very point of the signature text for those who believe the gifts are no longer for today is 1cor 13:8-10. For one to discredit the doctrine of initial evidence you must provide how 1cor 13:8-10 is saying the gifts are done away with because that which is "perfect" has come.
My question is very much vailed yet you result in insults and foolish remarks. Most of those who suggest I'm part of a false church like to blasphemy The Holy Spirit. You may not agree with the teaching that doesn't make one false. No more than being a Calvinist makes all racist.
If the 1cor 13:8-10 could be substantiated, the claims of initial evidence would be mote. The very point of the signature text for those who believe the gifts are no longer for today is 1cor 13:8-10. For one to discredit the doctrine of initial evidence you must provide how 1cor 13:8-10 is saying the gifts are done away with because that which is "perfect" has come.
My question is very much vailed yet you result in insults and foolish remarks. Most of those who suggest I'm part of a false church like to blasphemy The Holy Spirit. You may not agree with the teaching that doesn't make one false. No more than being a Calvinist makes all racist.
Why you dont read my post?
Show me where in the churchhistory it was taught that
SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS THE PROOF/EVIDENCE THAT SOMEONE IS BAPTISED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT?
In all the revivals ( what is a New Testament revival?) this was not practised/expierienced.
The first Person was Agnes Ozman in Topeka.
And the pentecostal Movement is celebrate this as beginning of the pentecostal movement. All pentecostals, even the Oneness pentecostals had their beginning there.
And again, I was not talking about Martin Luther ore Calvin. Im no Lutheran and no Calvinist. There teachings has nothing to do with this thread.
Show me where in the churchhistory it was taught that
SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS THE PROOF/EVIDENCE THAT SOMEONE IS BAPTISED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT?
In all the revivals ( what is a New Testament revival?) this was not practised/expierienced.
The first Person was Agnes Ozman in Topeka.
And the pentecostal Movement is celebrate this as beginning of the pentecostal movement. All pentecostals, even the Oneness pentecostals had their beginning there.
And again, I was not talking about Martin Luther ore Calvin. Im no Lutheran and no Calvinist. There teachings has nothing to do with this thread.
