Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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lrs68 said:
Let's truly examine the Verse that both Rufus and Roger keep trying to shove down our throats.

20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word.

The Disciples words would have been to the 1st Century Jew and Gentile.

Even the written Gospels are from the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit than the personal words of the Disciples.

So as I have claimed John 17 does not refer to any one of us today.
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Which also means that you deny Jesus' Great Commission commandment.

And BTW...Jesus didn't qualify what he said in v. 20. He placed no time limits in the verse.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
we only know what is revealed in Scripture concerning the hedge that was around Job.

We need to keep in mind that we tend to focus on the physical (that which we can see) and are unaware of the spiritual realm.

Here is a record in 2 Kings 6 which might help explain things we cannot see as far as God protecting us ...

2 King 6:8-17

8 Then the king of Syria warred against Israel, and took counsel with his servants, saying, In such and such a place shall be my camp.

9 And the man of God sent unto the king of Israel, saying, Beware that thou pass not such a place; for thither the Syrians are come down.

10 And the king of Israel sent to the place which the man of God told him and warned him of, and saved himself there, not once nor twice.

11 Therefore the heart of the king of Syria was sore troubled for this thing; and he called his servants, and said unto them, Will ye not shew me which of us is for the king of Israel?

12 And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber.

13 And he said, Go and spy where he is, that I may send and fetch him. And it was told him, saying, Behold, he is in Dothan.

14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

vss 6-10 – the king of Syria warred with Israel and the man of God (the prophet) warned the king of Israel so he escaped the king of Syria and, according to vs 10, the king of Israel escaped more than a couple of times.

vss 11-12 – the king of Syria thought there was a spy in his midst who warned the king of Israel but his men told the king that Elisha the prophet warned the king of Israel.

vss 13-14 – the king of Syria ordered his men to go fetch Elisha ... he sent a "great host" and surrounded the city where Elisha was.

vs 15 – the servant of Elisha saw the Syrians had surrounded the city and was frightened. He went to Elisha ... "Alas! what shall we do"???

vs 16 – Elisha told his servant not to fear ... "for they that be with us are more than they that be with them". The servant could not see the host that was "with them" ... all he saw was the Syrian army which encompassed the city.

vs 17 – Elisha prayed that God would open the eyes of his servant. God honored Elisha's prayer and his servant saw "horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha".

Bottomline ... there are things going on around us of which we are wholly unaware. That is why we are warned in Ephesians 6:12 that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

we need to wake up to the spiritual warfare going on ...





According to Job 1:1, Job was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.





my understanding is that Job lived before the time of Moses.

https://www.gotquestions.org/when-did-Job-live.html





satan was aware of the hedge around Job ...

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job remained steadfast in faith during his time of trial ... Job held on to what he knew from God. Job is a great example to us in our day and time as we go through the trials of this life.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

.
Click to expand...

Job very likely lived before Abraham!
 
Kroogz said:
I didn't say that and no "FWR" on this thread has said that.

You believe. I believe.......We both must be workers for then.......You DO NOT have a special belief.

a=a
1=1
belief=belief
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No, but he has very special, efficacious grace that God gives only to the humble. Faith proceeds from grace.
 
[QUOTE="sawdust, post: 5657303, member: 329358"]No-one here has ever said our believing has saved us so why you must continue to perpetrate the lie, beats me.

It is by the determination of the Lord that He saves believers. It is not our believing that saves but the Lord's determination. It is very easy to understand. If He had not decided to save believers, it wouldn't matter if we believed or not, we would not be saved under those circumstances.

At least have the decency to understand what we are saying and please and stop with this insane "our believing saved us" rubbish. Thankyou.

grace and peace [/QUOTE]

Every FWer here has clearly IMPLIED that ultimately it's their efficacious "freewill" that saved them, since God is merely a potential savior who presents opportunities for every man, woman and child on the planet to become saved.
 
lrs68 said:
Jesus only prayed to the Father.
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Oh...you got me good. Now go and get drunk and celebrate your "I got Rufus" moment.

And by the way, using your logic (If I dare honor your twisted thinking with this term), since you believe Jesus prayed only for the first century believers, then to take that wonky logic to its rightful conclusion, we'd also have to believe that the entire NT is irrelevant to all those born after the first century. Was not the entire NT written by first century believers; and were not their audiences all born in the first century? So, it appears that none of us are believers since Jesus didn't pray for any of us. And I'm not at all surprised you would believe the garbage you spew! Why would you need the prayers of the High Priest of the Christian Faith? You're way above, way too good to need his prayers. After all, you have your god "freewill" that you lean upon.
 
Rufus said:
Which also means that you deny Jesus' Great Commission commandment.

And BTW...Jesus didn't qualify what he said in v. 20. He placed no time limits in the verse.
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Nothing you said remotely removes from the fact the Disciples words and the those who wrote Books are not close to being the same since the writing came from the Inspiration of God and not of themselves.
 
Rufus said:
Oh...you got me good. Now go and get drunk and celebrate your "I got Rufus" moment.

And by the way, using your logic (If I dare honor your twisted thinking with this term), since you believe Jesus prayed only for the first century believers, then to take that wonky logic to its rightful conclusion, we'd also have to believe that the entire NT is irrelevant to all those born after the first century. Was not the entire NT written by first century believers; and were not their audiences all born in the first century? So, it appears that none of us are believers since Jesus didn't pray for any of us. And I'm not at all surprised you would believe the garbage you spew! Why would you need the prayers of the High Priest of the Christian Faith? You're way above, way too good to need his prayers. After all, you have your god "freewill" that you lean upon.
Click to expand...
You say a lot for not saying anything that matters.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
we only know what is revealed in Scripture concerning the hedge that was around Job.

We need to keep in mind that we tend to focus on the physical (that which we can see) and are unaware of the spiritual realm.

Here is a record in 2 Kings 6 which might help explain things we cannot see as far as God protecting us ...

2 King 6:8-17

8 Then the king of Syria warred against Israel, and took counsel with his servants, saying, In such and such a place shall be my camp.

9 And the man of God sent unto the king of Israel, saying, Beware that thou pass not such a place; for thither the Syrians are come down.

10 And the king of Israel sent to the place which the man of God told him and warned him of, and saved himself there, not once nor twice.

11 Therefore the heart of the king of Syria was sore troubled for this thing; and he called his servants, and said unto them, Will ye not shew me which of us is for the king of Israel?

12 And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber.

13 And he said, Go and spy where he is, that I may send and fetch him. And it was told him, saying, Behold, he is in Dothan.

14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

vss 6-10 – the king of Syria warred with Israel and the man of God (the prophet) warned the king of Israel so he escaped the king of Syria and, according to vs 10, the king of Israel escaped more than a couple of times.

vss 11-12 – the king of Syria thought there was a spy in his midst who warned the king of Israel but his men told the king that Elisha the prophet warned the king of Israel.

vss 13-14 – the king of Syria ordered his men to go fetch Elisha ... he sent a "great host" and surrounded the city where Elisha was.

vs 15 – the servant of Elisha saw the Syrians had surrounded the city and was frightened. He went to Elisha ... "Alas! what shall we do"???

vs 16 – Elisha told his servant not to fear ... "for they that be with us are more than they that be with them". The servant could not see the host that was "with them" ... all he saw was the Syrian army which encompassed the city.

vs 17 – Elisha prayed that God would open the eyes of his servant. God honored Elisha's prayer and his servant saw "horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha".

Bottomline ... there are things going on around us of which we are wholly unaware. That is why we are warned in Ephesians 6:12 that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

we need to wake up to the spiritual warfare going on ...





According to Job 1:1, Job was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.





my understanding is that Job lived before the time of Moses.

https://www.gotquestions.org/when-did-Job-live.html





satan was aware of the hedge around Job ...

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job remained steadfast in faith during his time of trial ... Job held on to what he knew from God. Job is a great example to us in our day and time as we go through the trials of this life.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

.
Click to expand...
I believe you've miss understood here, a hedge of protection clearly speaks of safeguard a barrier and protection, from evil, where by a person is able to listen to God directly, and then live with God and only God. Job also makes reference that nothing could influence Job whilst job was under that hedge of protection,

God describes job as blameless and upright, which means God knew his heart and Job must have lived a life according to Gods moral principles,

Now I brought the twelve tribes of Israel into it because we see Exactly how God talks to people whilst there under a hedge of protection with him, and how he guides them to live by his moral principles, also this is the connection I was refering to,

Now half of those men became upright and entered the promised land half of them didn't.

Now the half who didn't had a hedge of protection no doubt shielding them l from evil, where by only there own sin could be there own fault, and it was decided that their will could not be changed and God left them in the desert.

So whilst @Genez may say sin is not evil, and satan is only evil who causes sin, it can't be so, because God had a hedge of protection over 600.000 men, protecting them from evil, whilst there corrupted free will continued to take no notice by there own accord.

But the other 600.000 men did take notice. So what caused there will to be changed ?
 
Rufus said:
[QUOTE="sawdust, post: 5657303, member: 329358"]No-one here has ever said our believing has saved us so why you must continue to perpetrate the lie, beats me.

It is by the determination of the Lord that He saves believers. It is not our believing that saves but the Lord's determination. It is very easy to understand. If He had not decided to save believers, it wouldn't matter if we believed or not, we would not be saved under those circumstances.

At least have the decency to understand what we are saying and please and stop with this insane "our believing saved us" rubbish. Thankyou.

grace and peace
Click to expand...

Every FWer here has clearly IMPLIED that ultimately it's their efficacious "freewill" that saved them, since God is merely a potential savior who presents opportunities for every man, woman and child on the planet to become saved. [/QUOTE]

Oh...you FWers do acknowledge that Jesus gets the salvation ball rolling -- He initiates salvation -- He begins the good work -- but He most definitely does not and logically cannot consummate anyone's salvation with his grace that has zero efficacy to it. Therefore, sinners themselves consummate their own salvation by the efficacy of their own "freewill" decision to believe the gospel. If you deny there is efficacy in man's "freewill" then what or who effectuated sinners' salvation?

Tell me: Are you a son of Abraham or a child of the devil?
 
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sawdust said:
Not if you wasted his grace given and refused to believe His truth.
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What's the big deal in wasting ineffectual grace, since it doesn't actually result in faith? FWT theology says God started a good work but doesn't dare interfere with man's sacred "freewill" since man's eternal destiny resides entirely in his own prerogative?
 
rogerg said:
Nope, Rufus, not even that much!
Click to expand...

Thank God, then, that we can count 101% on Jesus' perfect holiness, righteousness and goodness. God does not trust or rely upon anything that is imperfect. If He did, He wouldn't have to direct the steps of mankind by his perfect and holy will.
 
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Rufus said:
Exactly! And here's the real kicker with Jn 17: In order for any FWer to deny the efficacy of God's saving grace, they would have to equally deny the efficacy of the very prayer of their professed High Priest; for Jesus prayed for only those the Father gave to Him. And Jesus clearly said that He wants ALL the Father has given to Him (both flocks of sheep) to be with Him for all eternity! But their insipid, man-glorifying, man- exalting, self-aggrandinizing FWT will not let them believe that their High Priest's prayer has any efficacy to it, since God, as a mere potential savior, only offers oppoturnities to sinners to be with Jesus for all eternity. It's ultimately up to the "freewill" choice of sinners where they want to spend eternity. But thanks to God's precious grace, we don't find any of this filthy FWT garbage in Jesus' prayer.
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And they try to slice and dice it according to the end result they want, purposefully ignoring that Jesus prayed it as ONE integrated prayer from beginning to end. Guess they think we are unable to read and understand it.
 
Rufus said:
How often did Jesus silence his hateful critics? Don't you consider yourself, as a professing believer, to be a son of Abraham?
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"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." ​
​
Romans 8:14​


When a believer is filled and walks in the Spirit he is beyond being a son of Abraham.


"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God."



.​
 
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