Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[rogerg]

Exercising faith in the truth/Good News/Christ Jesus, is first always in scripture.

You might want that and say that, but it just ain't so. Those verses beyond all debate clearly say otherwise - you just can't accept it even when it is right in front of your eyes

 

[HeIsHere]

You might want that and say that, but it just ain't so. Those verses beyond all debate clearly say otherwise - you just can't accept it even when it is right in front of your eyes

There is not one verse where regeneration precedes faith, in context, and paying correct attention to the grammatical structure of the sentence.

 

[rogerg]

There is not one verse where regeneration precedes faith in context and paying attention the grammar.

The verses I provided clearly say exactly that and you saying otherwise doesn't make it so. You're trying to dodge, bob and weave, around what is clearly evident and true. When you won't/can't publicly accept the truth, you lose creditability

 

[Genez]

But Jesus did pray to those who would be evangelized by the 11 (and other disciples Jesus had during his first century ministry) and who would come to believe that Jesus was sent by God.

Since you reject the very clear teaching of Jn 17, then you must not consider yourself to be part of that second group for whom Jesus prayed and, therefore, not a believer. And you also, evidently, don't believe that you, as a professing believer, are a son of Abraham since you never answered my question from yesterday.

Your own words and lack of words condemn you!

Your own words and lack of words condemn you!



.​

 

[HeIsHere]

The verses I provided clearly say exactly that and you saying otherwise doesn't make it so. You're trying to dodge, bob and weave, around what is clearly evident and true. When you won't/can't publicly accept the truth, you lose creditability

You did not exegete the verses btw.

 

[Rufus]

What part of these verses do you not comprehend. They are really quite clear. Do you see the "NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE" and "BUT FOR THEM ALSO WHICH SHALL BELIEVE ON ME..." in v20, which is continued in v21 with "THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE"? Do you see the "ALL MAY BE ONE" - that Jesus made no distinction in His prayer between His disciples and those who would believe through them - that they may all be ONE?

Jesus's prayer was for all who would ever believe, not just those particular disciples who were with Him then.

[Jhn 17:20 KJV] 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

[Jhn 17:21 KJV] 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Do you get the impression that FWers are not very fond of Jn 17 because it runs counter to their false gospel!? Take RDBD, as an example. Originally, she told us that Jesus prayed only for the 11. Then she finally had to admit that He did pray for a second group, never thanking me for pointing this truth out, since she's too proud to explicitly and publicly admit to any of her errors.

Then she got on my case for "conflating" Jn 10 with Jn 17. She thought the former chapter was totally irrelevant to Jesus' prayer and how He prayed. She utterly failed to see the very obvious parallels between the two chapters to wit:

Jn 10: Two flocks of sheep (vv. 11, 16). Jn 17: Two groups (vv. 6, 20)
Jn 10: Both flocks given to the Son (v. 29). Jn 17: Both groups given to the Son (v. 24)
Jn 10: Both flocks shall unite and become one flock (v. 16). Jn 17: Both groups shall become one (v. 21).
Jn 10: Jesus gives life for his sheep (v. 10). Jn 17: Jesus gives life to all whom the Father has given to Him (v. 2, 24).
Jn 10: Jesus' sheep know Him (v 14). Jn 17: Those given to Jesus know Him (vv. 7-9).
Jn 10: Jesus' sheep obey/follow Him (v. 6) Jn 17: Those given to Jesus accepted/obeyed His words (vv. 6-9).
Jn 10: Jesus' sheep are eternally secure (vv. 28-29). Jn 17: Those given to Jesus are eternally secure (vv. 9-12, 24)

All the above goes to show that there are none so blind who with their mighty and powerful "freewill" don't want to see God's Truth.

 

[Genez]

You need to learn that imposing your views on people causes people to become uncomfortable, if you could be a good brother then you will take notice to treat people more kindly, which I really shouldn't be having to tell a much older person than me this , if you say your as old as you say you are, you should be mature enough and kind enough by now to talk to people nicely without making loads of false representations, I'm pretty sure Christ makes people kind.and it doesn't take very long for kindness to show in Good people.

Maybe, that was how your mother treated you.

Kindly is not needed for someone who sees no wrong in his wrongdoing....

You are stuck in a cultural mode of certain Brits.

Too polite, to ever get right.​

Come on...
Do as Jesus commanded of men.
Deny self and take up your cross.
God is trying to purge all of us and to transform.
You have been pampered for too long, and want to bring it over into your Christian walk.

There is a time for kindness.
And, a time for making you face yourself.

A time for every purpose under heaven.

.......

 

[rogerg]

Do you get the impression that FWers are not very fond of Jn 17 because it runs counter to their false gospel!? Take RDBD, as an example. Originally, she told us that Jesus prayed only for the 11. Then she finally had to admit that He did pray for a second group, never thanking me for pointing this truth out, since she's too proud to explicitly and publicly admit to any of her errors.

Then she got on my case for "conflating" Jn 10 with Jn 17. She thought the former chapter was totally irrelevant to Jesus' prayer and how He prayed. She utterly failed to see the very obvious parallels between the two chapters to wit:

Jn 10: Two flocks of sheep (vv. 11, 16). Jn 17: Two groups (vv. 6, 20)
Jn 10: Both flocks given to the Son (v. 29). Jn 17: Both groups given to the Son (v. 24)
Jn 10: Both flocks shall unite and become one flock (v. 16). Jn 17: Both groups shall become one (v. 21).
Jn 10: Jesus gives life for his sheep (v. 10). Jn 17: Jesus gives life to all whom the Father has given to Him (v. 2, 24).
Jn 10: Jesus' sheep know Him (v 14). Jn 17: Those given to Jesus know Him (vv. 7-9).
Jn 10: Jesus' sheep obey/follow Him (v. 6) Jn 17: Those given to Jesus accepted/obeyed His words (vv. 6-9).
Jn 10: Jesus' sheep are eternally secure (vv. 28-29). Jn 17: Those given to Jesus are eternally secure (vv. 9-12, 24)

All the above goes to show that there are none so blind who with their mighty and powerful "freewill" don't want to see God's Truth.

Yup, I definitely noticed that too. Not only are they not fond of Jn 17, but they're forced to fight against it tooth and nail to protect their ridiculous, FW belief, with its creditability continually diminishing no matter how absurd and out of touch actual scripture makes it look, nevertheless, in spite of all that, they insist on fighting on.

 

[Rufus]

Your own words and lack of words condemn you!



.​

How often did Jesus silence his hateful critics? Don't you consider yourself, as a professing believer, to be a son of Abraham?

 

[Genez]

The verses I provided clearly say exactly that and you saying otherwise doesn't make it so. You're trying to dodge, bob and weave, around what is clearly evident and true. When you won't/can't publicly accept the truth, you lose creditability

@rogerg... you lost it a long time ago.

 

[HeIsHere]

@rogerg... you lost it a long time ago.

it is very rare, if ever, that they actually exegete scripture in context with attention to the original language and grammatical structure, but they want us to accept their theory as biblical.

 

[Jordon]

Maybe, that was how your mother treated you.

Kindly is not needed for someone who sees no wrong in his wrongdoing....

You are stuck in a cultural mode of certain Brits.

Too polite, to ever get right.​

Come on...
Do as Jesus commanded of men.
Deny self and take up your cross.
God is trying to purge all of us and to transform.
You have been pampered for too long, and want to bring it over into your Christian walk.

There is a time for kindness.
And, a time for making you face yourself.

A time for every purpose under heaven.

.......

I wouldn't go there if I was you, to talk badly about a person's mum, is asking for trouble,

Do you want Trouble ?

You shouldn't assume how any mum treats there son, thats a line you don't cross.

 

[Jordon]

Maybe, that was how your mother treated you.

Kindly is not needed for someone who sees no wrong in his wrongdoing....

You are stuck in a cultural mode of certain Brits.

Too polite, to ever get right.​

Come on...
Do as Jesus commanded of men.
Deny self and take up your cross.
God is trying to purge all of us and to transform.
You have been pampered for too long, and want to bring it over into your Christian walk.

There is a time for kindness.
And, a time for making you face yourself.

A time for every purpose under heaven.

.......

You have these ideas that you only have to be kind when it suits, why is that ? I only see that attitude in people who have either been miss treated, or there just mean in nature

What's your excuse ?

 

[Rufus]

Yup, I definitely noticed that too. Not only are they not fond of Jn 17, but they're forced to fight against it tooth and nail to protect their ridiculous, FW belief, with its creditability continually diminishing no matter how absurd and out of touch actual scripture makes it look, nevertheless, in spite of all that, they insist on fighting on.

Exactly! And here's the real kicker with Jn 17: In order for any FWer to deny the efficacy of God's saving grace, they would have to equally deny the efficacy of the very prayer of their professed High Priest; for Jesus prayed for only those the Father gave to Him. And Jesus clearly said that He wants ALL the Father has given to Him (both flocks of sheep) to be with Him for all eternity! But their insipid, man-glorifying, man- exalting, self-aggrandinizing FWT will not let them believe that their High Priest's prayer has any efficacy to it, since God, as a mere potential savior, only offers oppoturnities to sinners to be with Jesus for all eternity. It's ultimately up to the "freewill" choice of sinners where they want to spend eternity. But thanks to God's precious grace, we don't find any of this filthy FWT garbage in Jesus' prayer.

 

[HeIsHere]

Exactly! And here's the real kicker with Jn 17: In order for any FWer to deny the efficacy of God's saving grace, they would have to equally deny the efficacy of the very prayer of their professed High Priest; for Jesus prayed for only those the Father gave to Him. And Jesus clearly said that He wants ALL the Father has given to Him (both flocks of sheep) to be with Him for all eternity! But their insipid, man-glorifying, man- exalting, self-aggrandinizing FWT will not let them believe that their High Priest's prayer has any efficacy to it, since God, as a mere potential savior, only offers oppoturnities to sinners to be with Jesus for all eternity. It's ultimately up to the "freewill" choice of sinners where they want to spend eternity. But thanks to God's precious grace, we don't find any of this filthy FWT garbage in Jesus' prayer.

Wrong.

 

[Rufus]

I tell them there is nothing anyone can do to make themselves saved - that Christ alone is the Savior, and that man is not. That is what Savior means - that He is the one who saves. If you believe you can do something to save yourself, then you simply don't believe Christ is the Savior - it ain't complicated and we've tried to explain this simple truth to you before .... but unfortunately, without success. You can't have it both ways - He is the Savior and is solely the one who saves, or you don't really believe that He is, no middle ground!

Aw, 'cmon! Not even a tiny, microscopic scintilla of synergism whereby man's "freewill" can be squeezed in?

 

[Rufus]

Wrong.

If you believe the elect's High Priest's prayer was totally efficacious, then how can you not believe in the efficacy of God's saving grace? Heck...you don't even believe, as a professing believer, that you're a daughter of Abraham for crying our loud!

 

[Rufus]

Hi Tex ... there is a term abounding in this thread ... "FWer" or "free willer" or words to that effect. All definitions of the term provided so far fail to accurately describe what is believed by those who are referred to as "FWer" or "free willer".

on the other hand, there is the term "calvinist" or "calvie" which those who are referred to by that term claim they are not "calvinist".

however ... between all the name-calling and argumentation, there are some solid gold nuggets of truth ... just have to ferret them out ...

if you hang more than a nanosecond, learning is available.

.

Just not from FWers, Tex.

And welcome to the 'hood.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

my understanding here Job was a man like all other men that where born into a fallen nature,.that God the father provided a hedge of protection for.

Which I feel we really should try to understand what that means,

we only know what is revealed in Scripture concerning the hedge that was around Job.

We need to keep in mind that we tend to focus on the physical (that which we can see) and are unaware of the spiritual realm.

Here is a record in 2 Kings 6 which might help explain things we cannot see as far as God protecting us ...

2 King 6:8-17

8 Then the king of Syria warred against Israel, and took counsel with his servants, saying, In such and such a place shall be my camp.

9 And the man of God sent unto the king of Israel, saying, Beware that thou pass not such a place; for thither the Syrians are come down.

10 And the king of Israel sent to the place which the man of God told him and warned him of, and saved himself there, not once nor twice.

11 Therefore the heart of the king of Syria was sore troubled for this thing; and he called his servants, and said unto them, Will ye not shew me which of us is for the king of Israel?

12 And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber.

13 And he said, Go and spy where he is, that I may send and fetch him. And it was told him, saying, Behold, he is in Dothan.

14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

vss 6-10 – the king of Syria warred with Israel and the man of God (the prophet) warned the king of Israel so he escaped the king of Syria and, according to vs 10, the king of Israel escaped more than a couple of times.

vss 11-12 – the king of Syria thought there was a spy in his midst who warned the king of Israel but his men told the king that Elisha the prophet warned the king of Israel.

vss 13-14 – the king of Syria ordered his men to go fetch Elisha ... he sent a "great host" and surrounded the city where Elisha was.

vs 15 – the servant of Elisha saw the Syrians had surrounded the city and was frightened. He went to Elisha ... "Alas! what shall we do"???

vs 16 – Elisha told his servant not to fear ... "for they that be with us are more than they that be with them". The servant could not see the host that was "with them" ... all he saw was the Syrian army which encompassed the city.

vs 17 – Elisha prayed that God would open the eyes of his servant. God honored Elisha's prayer and his servant saw "horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha".

Bottomline ... there are things going on around us of which we are wholly unaware. That is why we are warned in Ephesians 6:12 that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

we need to wake up to the spiritual warfare going on ...

Would job have been able to be righteous in the lords eyes without that hedge of protection protecting him from being accused ?

And what was that hedge of protection ? Was it the devine power of God shielding him, you know, the devine nature of the father, that has will, and love and peace, and grace to enrich enable and protect those who accept his way, it just must have been surely.

Then why would somebody of a fallen nature be given a hedge of protection, surely everyone must start of with a hedge of protection from the devine nature of the father going to work in them,

According to Job 1:1, Job was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

I mean he walked with over million men for 40 years giving a hedge of protection to them all, half of them would go on to have the devine nature of the son going to work in them, the other half seems to have been left out, if we see the entrance to the promised land as the gifting of the sons devine nature, it must be since just before they entered the promised land they where told they where going to have their hearts made new by God, that surely that must mean being given a new spiritual nature, that comes from the devine, by the last words of Moses they where told this by moses, who had also beem changed by God by being in his presence, surely they new nature you receive is devine...sure being connected to the vine is define

my understanding is that Job lived before the time of Moses.

https://www.gotquestions.org/when-did-Job-live.html

So what else must hedge of protection, surely it offers a way out of darkness from the devine nature of the father. When Adam and eve had fallen there was Gof still speaking to them how could they speak back with that hedge of protection still being there.

How.could God reward Adam and eves son, without his encouragement. Surely his hedge of protection has a divine nature that goes to work in people

satan was aware of the hedge around Job ...

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job remained steadfast in faith during his time of trial ... Job held on to what he knew from God. Job is a great example to us in our day and time as we go through the trials of this life.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So, I read Job starting after the devil brings up Job in conversation with God. And Job speaks carelessly of himself to his Friends. And they keep telling him that he is righteous but will not listen to common sense. He scraped open wounds with pottery fragments. He allowed himself to live in filth. But this is not because he was unable to see the value of what he had. It is because he considered himself to be beyond help.

Actually, Job was suffering mightily from the onslaught of satan. Job had not sinned yet his friends insisted there was some sin for which Job needed to repent.

Job begged God to show him his sin so he could repent:

Job 13:23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

I'm open to hearing your word on this, but no need to make me happy with thoughts and prayers. I want to understand your perspective better on why he was appealing to Moses.

Job lived before the time of Moses.

https://www.gotquestions.org/when-did-Job-live.html

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