Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Calvinist speak with forked tongue.....

https://christianchat.com/threads/ponder-the-parallel.220768/post-5596961

Spiritually dead people are not doing spiritual things. They can only do natural things. They can mimic spiritual activity outwardly, but not inwardly.

Okay, Einstein, explain this passage:

Deut 29:2-4
2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:

Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
NIV

Did Moses contradict himself? The Israelites did see all that the Lord did in Egypt, while simultaneously not seeing and understanding?

 

[Cameron143]

One of the things God will accomplish is enabling an unregenerated soul to consider the Gospel.

Grace restrains the depraved flesh, thus allowing that person's soul to think without being driven by depravity to reject.
That being said. Such grace does not guarantee that the soul will want to believe.

That is why God will hold all unbelievers *accountable.*

They will be without excuse! Romans 1:20

Again, don't tell me. While I agree with much of what you have shared, tell cv5. He doesn't believe God needs to restrain the depraved flesh.

 

[Rufus]

Look, Cameron....
Might as well make it known.

Here is your record of "understanding".

You do not believe in THE Rapture.
The Rapture that the Church believes in.

You believe the Millennial reign of Christ has been happening for over 1000 years already.
When, considering... "Millennium" means only 1000 years?

So, your interpretation of things has not been holding much water with me.

From what I have read of Cv5?
He has his bolts and nuts tightened correctly.

You are just trying to create a wedge.

So numbers in scripture are never used in a figurative sense?

 

[cv5]

Connect the dots for me, Mr. Wanna-be Einstein. Prove your premise.

Einstein plagiarized Poincare and Lorentz, conjured up a few math tricks to replace the aether with curved spacetime, and his theories are at odds with objective observable reality.

“Einstein's relativity work is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists.”

- Nikola Tesla

 

[cv5]

Again, don't tell me. While I agree with much of what you have shared, tell cv5. He doesn't believe God needs to restrain the depraved flesh.

Oh but God DOES restrain evil as regards men (including massive but necessary judgements such as the flood, Sodom and Jericho), He does so likewise as regards Satan the fallen host.

Non stop Calvinists strike-outs are a feature not a bug around here.

[2Th 2:6 KJV]
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

[2Th 2:7 KJV]
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

[2Th 2:8 KJV]
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[2Th 2:9 KJV]
[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[Jackson129]

Completely disagree. Were you correct, it would make man his own savior - you would replace Christ as Savior with man. When/if you come to realize what the role of the Savior is, come back and we can discuss further then. It's amazing that being a Christian,
you don't recognize Christ as THE Savior.

I dont understand how by us saying we chose to believe or not somehow makes us our own savior. Without Jesus sacrifice no one could be saved. Wether you believe in him or not. Without that graceful sacrafice not a single person believer or not could be saved. I dont understand how you think someone deciding to believe makes them thier own savoir it makes no sense.

 

[Cameron143]

Oh but God DOES restrain evil as regards men (including massive but necessary judgements such as the flood, Sodom and Jericho), He does so likewise as regards Satan the fallen host.

Non stop Calvinists strike-outs are a feature not a bug around here.

[2Th 2:6 KJV]
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

[2Th 2:7 KJV]
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

[2Th 2:8 KJV]
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[2Th 2:9 KJV]
[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Such gobbledygook. We're talking about God restraining sin when it comes to salvation. Why are you deflecting from telling your true beliefs?

 

[Jackson129]

The existing design was blowing up gearboxes and nobody seemed to know why.
I examined the analysis provided by the bona fide stress engineer and it was.....trivial and woefully incomplete.
Appallingly, everyone failed to recognize that drivetrain energy flows in TWO directions, and that there is a back-driven, impact-limited, impulse-dominated transient dynamic load being transmitted through an overly compliant drivetrain.

The existing design is tragically compromised in several critical ways.
Thank God my name is not in any way attached to that mess.......

Is my car about to lock up and smash me into a brick wall. Lol

 

[Genez]

Again, don't tell me. While I agree with much of what you have shared, tell cv5. He doesn't believe God needs to restrain the depraved flesh.

Show me with a message number.

 

[Genez]

So numbers in scripture are never used in a figurative sense?

Sometimes.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Then you believe wrongly!

correction ... you believe I believe wrongly.

I showed you from Romans 10:9-10 ... that salvation is what occurs at the time a person is born again.

Romans 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

A person is "saved" the moment he or she confesses the Lord Jesus Christ is Lord in his or her life and believes that God raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead ... this is "salvation".

1 Peter 1:1-2:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
NIV

The word "sanctifying" is translated from the Greek word hagiasmós which means:

the process of advancing in holiness; used of the believer being progressively transformed by the Lord into His likeness similarity of nature.​

HELPS Word-studies (bold mine)​

And,

2 Thess 2:13
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth
NIV

From Gotquestions.org (bold mine):

Sanctification is a three-stage process – past, present, and future. The first stage occurs at the beginning of our Christian lives. It is an initial moral change, a break from the power and love of sin. It is the point at which believers can count themselves “dead to sin but alive to God” (Romans 6:11). Once sanctification has begun, we are no longer under sin’s dominion (Romans 6:14). There is a reorientation of desires, and we develop a love of righteousness. Paul calls it “slavery to righteousness” (Romans 6:17-18).​

​

The second stage of sanctification requires a lifetime to complete. As we grow in grace, we are gradually – but steadily – changing to be more like Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:18). This occurs in a process of daily spiritual renewal (Colossians 3:10). The apostle Paul himself was being sanctified even as he ministered to others. Paul claimed that he had not reached perfection, but that he “pressed on” to attain everything Christ desired for him (Philippians 3:12).​

​

The third and final stage of sanctification occurs in the future. When believers die, their spirits go to be with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). Since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27), we must be made perfect at that point. The sanctification of the whole person—body, soul, and spirit—will finally be complete when the Lord Jesus returns and we receive glorified bodies (Philippians 3:21; 1 Corinthians 15:35-49).​

https://www.gotquestions.org/progressive-sanctification.html​

Sanctification in both texts PRECEDES obedience to Christ and obedience to gospel truth. Cornelius is a great example of this truth.

The word hagiasmós is derived from the Greek word hágios which means "holy".

Do you believe the natural man is "hágios" ... holy ... prior to being born again of Holy Spirit? ... is that what you believe?

In fact, I could really dig down even deeper into this teaching since obedience to Christ is impossible without a sinner actually having a genuine love for God. There is no stronger impetus for obedience to gospel truth than Agape Love. And the ONLY Source for such love is God Almighty himself!

glaringly absent from your belief is the sinner actually being born again of Holy Spirit so that he or she has capacity to be obedient to Christ.

1 Peter 1:23-24

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away

you've got that which "withereth" and "falleth away" ... "having a genuine love for God".

I believe those who are being sanctified are the ones who are born again of incorruptible seed by the Word of God which lives and abides forever ... and sanctification does not begin unless and until a person is born again.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Not worried about that, I am trying to save life and limb, no exaggeration.

praying ...

.

 

[Cameron143]

Show me with a message number.

@cv5...do you believe God needs to restrain the flesh of the fallen natural man in salvation or can he simply believe upon hearing the gospel?

 

[HeIsHere]

Second, the gospel is merely the proclamation of the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Wrong.

 

[HeIsHere]

Don't tell me. Tell @cv5. He doesn't believe God needs to do anything for the natural man to believe.

One thing that is absolutely and for certain >>>> regeneration, new heart, god working IN them etc., prior to faith is false and

not supported by scripture.

 

[Jordon]

On the one hand they want us to believe they understand that which they oppose but on the other
hand they keep presenting material that shows they are completely ignorant of their own ignorance.

Either that or the material they present is designed to deceive. It could be both, actually.

Talking out of both sides of their mouth is not a good look for them, though.

folks continuing in evil through suppressing the truth in unrighteousness after God has revealed Himself is what is evil.





Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

if someone gives to the poor in an effort to gain salvation, then yes it is unclean according to Isaiah 64:6.

However, the poor still receive the benefit of someone giving ... which is a good thing.

Did you know, Jordon, that God will repay those who are generous to the poor?

Proverbs 19:17 Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his deed.





I have explained my understanding of the discussion ... both Genez and Kroogz have confirmed my understanding.

You do not agree ... doesn't mean you're "back to front" ... I have no idea what that means ...





1 John 3:4-5

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.


truth





Matthew 7:15-27

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


truth





Isaiah 59:1-2

1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.


truth





Romans 6:20-23

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


truth





Proverbs 15:28-32

28 The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.

29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

30 The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart: and a good report maketh the bones fat.

31 The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.

32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.


truth





1 Corinthians 10:12-13

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


truth





where?

I was having a discussion with you concerning the coats God made for Adam and Eve.

BillyBob quoted a sentence from my full post and Magenta replied to BillyBob with her claim "free willers think they are clever to present mothers loving and caring for their children as "evil." "

reneweddaybyday said:​

The fig leaves Adam and Eve made for themselves (Gen 3:7) represented their fleshly, human attempt to cover their sin and and shame.​

BillyBob said:​

Sort of like a free willie thinking his fleshly, human attempt to cover his sin and and shame is sufficient for the job.​

​

Magenta said:​

Unfortunately free willers think they are clever to present mothers loving and caring for their children as "evil."​

asking for clarification concerning a statement made which is piggy-backed on a reply made by me is not "denial" ... it's asking for clarification.

.

once again you've distorted what I wrote, why have you answered me, for what other people have said, was it me who said giving to the poor was evil or sin is not evil, or God making you believe was a bad thing ?

And why is it you can't see magenta was making them see there own ignorance, seeing as your very good at correcting people ?

How is it you can't do that for her ?

And why is it such a nice respectable lady like you who cares are supporting there trash over magenta ?

 

[GWH]

My reply was regarding lrs post specifically. You misrepresented mine and added "free willers" to it - a very bad thing for you to do - no "free willers" in it

Here it is again:
"There that's that, Magenta, but I think it's actually worse - it's a blatant refusal to recognize what was clearly placed right before his eyes, and to me, demonstrates natural man brought to his ultimate state. "

The astute among us will note that you omitted what "that" referred to that you agreed with, which was "free willers contradict and deny many Scriptures to idolize self", so YOU are the one misrepresenting what you said, so please clarify what you believe regarding the biblical validity of MFWism.

 

[Cameron143]

One thing that is absolutely and for certain >>>> regeneration, new heart, god working IN them etc., prior to faith is false and

not supported by scripture.

Tell @Genez .

 

[HeIsHere]

I dont understand how you think someone deciding to believe makes them their own savoir it makes no sense.

Makes no sense indeed, and that is why Calvinism/Reformed soteriology was always on the periphery of evangelical traditional Christianity and regarded by some teachers and pastors as heresy.

However, they have purchased influence over the years in seminaries etc., .... I wonder why they worked so covertly.... hmm "

 

[HeIsHere]

Tell @Genez .

I am sure he has read my posts on this thread, however, unlike you he does not seek to create dissension.