Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Cor ch 3 v 17). If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ (Rom 8 v 9b). The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him (from John 14 v 17). Those not in Christ are not free (see Heb 2 v 15). Praise God if He has rescued you from the dominion of darkness! (see Col 1 v 13)

 

[Genez]

Part of the problem is that people think that making choices equates to the will being free. They say such things as, if the will is not free, then people are puppets. This is a logical fallacy. Making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, or what book to choose out of the mountains of them available, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing those things in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.

This is the crux of the conversation, such as it is, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend while in the flesh as are all before becoming indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot, that flesh cannot please God, that flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death, not life. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit... there are none good, no, not one! Even when asked who can be saved, Jesus said that with man it was impossible, and there are other places where we are explicitly told it is not by the will of the flesh or man but by God's will that any are saved. Some philosophy books have said man has a will that is free and that is enough for many to throw over a slew of Scriptural truths. They ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man.

It is the depravity of the unbeliever's flesh that enslaved the soul.
Making that soul unable to know anything about God.
It is the flesh that blinds and deafens the soul.

Can we agree on that much?

 

[Magenta]

@Magenta : Wow: Brilliant stuff, sister! You're a genius! I see what you're getting at now!

It is Scripture I put forth, not my own ideas, but praise the Lord you accept what the Bible says, and understand!! Sadly, many don't.

 

[Rufus]

And your opinion is that Cameron is a Gnostic because he affirms Scripture.
That is the type of dishonesty your CDS generates.

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

Wait a darn minute here! Just got that all wrong! You mean no sinner can freely choose by himself to know God? Jesus has to do a supernatural work in His chosen sheep in order for us to know God? Wow! Who woulda thunk, especially since a true knowledge of God is a precursor to faith since the Christian Faith is rational in nature?

 

[Cameron143]

Irenaeus wrote several books. To what in particular do you refer?

@Cameron143 do you believe what the Valentinian gnostics believed?

I don't know what they believe.

 

[Rufus]

There was no such thing as being in Christ when Abraham entered salvation.
Being in Christ is what we have been predestined and chosen for, for when we believe.

Abraham simply believed.

​

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.​

Acts 16:31

And Abraham believed while being dead in Adam, or while being alive in Eve's godly seed?

 

[Cameron143]

Abraham was not placed in Christ when he believed.

Only the Bride of Christ is placed in Christ when (during the church age) someone believes in Christ.

We become like Eve's body was in Adam's body, before God removed bone and flesh to reveal her to Adam.

Right now we are IN HIM, seated with Him in heavenly places!

At the resurrection, he can look at us and say in a way similar to what Adam said when he first saw the woman...

"Now! This is my Bride! She is bone of my bones, and glorious flesh of my glorious flesh!"​

Yup... That is why we in our resurrection bodies will be called His Bride!

In the meanwhile?

Our 'old man' bodies have been crucified with Christ!

​

Galatians 2:20​

​

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me."​

Grace and peace!

All the promises of God are IN CHRIST.

 

[Magenta]

I don't know what they believe.

I know you believe the Bible.

Wait a darn minute here! Just got that all wrong! You mean no sinner can freely choose by himself to know God? Jesus has to do a supernatural work in His chosen sheep in order for us to know God? Wow! Who woulda thunk, especially since a true knowledge of God is a precursor to faith since the Christian Faith is rational in nature?

Yes, though we have people like Heishere saying divine intervention is not necessary.

Except the Bible teaches that nobody would seek God without it.

They replace what is explicitly articulated with their own opinions.

 

[Rufus]

It is the depravity of the unbeliever's flesh that enslaved the soul.
Making that soul unable to know anything about God.
It is the flesh that blinds and deafens the soul.

Can we agree on that much?

But at least 90% of the world, after they were given "liberating" grace that would "enable" their will to be made free, according to you, still refuse the gospel. Yet, the tiny percentage who do believe are saved by that liberating grace, while God gets to judge those who reject His gospel even though they had the same "saving grace"! How is that fair, since God's gift of liberating grace is an epic fail for the vast majority of the world? It seems that God needs to do a major upgrade to his grace.

Not only that, but why would God even bother to give away his ineffective (and defective!) grace to people in the first place when he knew in eternity how they would respond? Your theology reduces God to an impotent, blathering idiot who doesn't know which end is up and how to effectively fix man's fallen nature.

 

[Magenta]

All the promises of God are IN CHRIST.

Yes and Amen

 

[sawdust]

Just a thought: But maybe the reason for all the arguing here, is due to the two main camps differing in their interpretations of the term FREE WILL, especially, of course, in it's determination of Salvation?

What I mean, therefore, is that could it be that we're actually all in agreement with what leads to Salvation, without realising it?

What are your thoughts?!

There are other differences, in fact, it might be the definition of free will we are most aligned on.

 

[Magenta]

Others say for God to act unilaterally, which Him drawing us is such an action, makes Him
an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their free will. Clearly free will has
become an idol that emboldens people to repeatedly blaspheme God. That is not even the
worst of the vile things some of these free willers say, which others think clever and applaud.

 

[Magenta]

I don't know what they believe.

I knew he was lying. But even so, since he has claimed to have had divine personal unique
revelatory experiences with God, even to the point of prophecy, and seeing that which was
revealed to him come true, then he himself is a gnostic according to how some here define it.

 

[sawdust]

Wait a darn minute here! Just got that all wrong! You mean no sinner can freely choose by himself to know God? Jesus has to do a supernatural work in His chosen sheep in order for us to know God? Wow! Who woulda thunk, especially since a true knowledge of God is a precursor to faith since the Christian Faith is rational in nature?

Yes, though we have people like Heishere saying divine intervention is not necessary.

Sure, because no-one here who believes God frees the will to choose or reject Him has said (repeatedly) that grace always initiates.

 

[Jordon]

It is the depravity of the unbeliever's flesh that enslaved the soul.
Making that soul unable to know anything about God.
It is the flesh that blinds and deafens the soul.

Can we agree on that much?

I can't because it was Gods will that man soul, should be allowed to accept his life.

Man chose not to accept his life. which means his will declared man nature would lose connection with God if man didn't accept.

So no it Gods authority that severs connection from God untill man can accept, its not your flesh that stops the soul having connection, the flesh is permanently corrupted because God said if you accept life you will live,.and if you don't your nature will be corrupted, which will feel like death to you, because your nature your soul will lose it's innocence and turn from me completely. Which it did when Adam and ever couldn't even make an honest confession that they chose to ignore his will.

His will would have been in there seed. So there you have it.

 

[Genez]

All the promises of God are IN CHRIST.

All were FULFILLED in Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:20

That includes the promise to Jews, who will not be the church, but living as Jews on earth during the Millennium.

 

[Genez]

But at least 90% of the world, after they were given "liberating" grace that would "enable" their will to be made free, according to you, still refuse the gospel.

The Gospel is only to be found at the end of the journey of being drawn by God.

But, first... Before the end of their journey?
They were being made to be free by grace to seek more and more from God while being drawn.
But, made a detour into something to replace it.

The big detour many times will be religion.

For believers after salvation?
It will be a case of being drawn away from maturing in Christ, by some false teaching system that vitalizes them in their emotions.

​

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. ​

2 Timothy 4:3

 

[Cameron143]

All were FULFILLED in Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:20

That includes the promise to Jews, who will not be the church, but living as Jews on earth during the Millennium.

While I recognize this is a popular view, there is simply no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. There is only the new man.

What covenant do you believe Jews would be under?

 

[Cameron143]

All were FULFILLED in Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:20

That includes the promise to Jews, who will not be the church, but living as Jews on earth during the Millennium.

Not what the verse means. The promises are mediated through Christ. One must be in Christ to receive them.

 

[Jordon]

All were FULFILLED in Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:20

That includes the promise to Jews, who will not be the church, but living as Jews on earth during the Millennium.

you've Got it all backwards the finished works of the lord was completed at the cross, the coventant the Jews still accept doesn't even include the lord.

And main stream Judaism will never accept Jesus is the Messiah until he returns






.