Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

You got a gift, sir.
And, it is not a good one.

The gifts God has give me are good enough to wreck your worldly wisdom.

 

[Genez]

Not my opinion. Scripture teaches all are in Adam. All have a sinful nature and since all begin in unbelief, all are under condemnation. The cross didn't automatically change this. One must be in Christ to receive the new nature.

There was no such thing as being in Christ when Abraham entered salvation.
Being in Christ is what we have been predestined and chosen for, for when we believe.

Abraham simply believed.

​

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.​

Acts 16:31

 

[Cameron143]

No. not in unbelief, one cannot be in "unbelief" about something they do not know.
They do not know.

Always that language of double speak.

So...individuals are in Adam when born, but not under condemnation?

 

[Jordon]

in his seed m the breath of life the same will that switched his life of

the word speaks about all seeds having a glory @Magenta

 

[HeIsHere]

You believe in prevenient grace. I believe God changes the individual. Either way, freedom of choice is the result. @HeIsHere and others believe that fallen man, as is, has freewill and that depravity does not limit one's will. This is what I'm arguing against. Since you spend your time assuming to correct me, you never challenge their error. Whether you agree with me on what leads to the freeing of the will, you would do better to explain to some here what depravity actually is and why God must enable the will of man.

One thing depravity is absolutely NOT is being BORN unable to respond positively to the Good News of Christ Jesus, He tells His very words are life and people can believe and place their faith in Him.

This is the un-corrupted view of salvation.. not the one where people can only deny the GOOD NEWS unless regenerated first ... yet to be substantiated by scripture with a clear teaching from Paul or Jesus.

Your salvation is based on determinism and decree .. a corrupted and opposite view of everything scriptural...shown over and over again by many on this thread.

 

[Magenta]

John 18 v 37b John 8 v 47 Matthew 13 v 11b For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice. Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Plus 2 Timothy 1 v 9, He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began.

 

[HeIsHere]

More deceitful. You didn't actually mirror my beliefs, but you incidentally acknowledged a portion of what I said. Just more evidence of your inability to comprehend.

Sadly I comprehend all too well.

 

[Magenta]

He tells His very words are life and people can believe and place their faith in Him.

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians ch 2 v 14

 

[Cameron143]

There was no such thing as being in Christ when Abraham entered salvation.
Being in Christ is what we have been predestined and chosen for, for when we believe.

Abraham simply believed.

​

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.​

Acts 16:31

The Abrahamic covenant is part of the covenant of grace. Read John 8:56. Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus' day and saw it before the cross. All the promises of God are in Christ yea, and in Him amen.

 

[Cameron143]

Sadly I comprehend all too well.

If you did, we would be in agreement.

 

[HeIsHere]

So...individuals are in Adam when born, but not under condemnation?

What does one have to do with the other.

Nothing.

Just like this idea people are born in "unbelief"

You have to know something to be incredulous about it.

 

[Genez]

You believe in prevenient grace. I believe God changes the individual. .

God does not change the individual until after he is saved.
It was then that you became a new creation in Christ.

On the other hand...

Prevenient grace takes place in drawing us.
Forcing our flesh to become of non-effect, while allowing our soul to be made temporarily free of the depravity of the flesh.
Enabling our soul to think though for itself what God is presenting to that soul to consider.

Prevenient means to "come before."
Before one is saved.

 

[Cameron143]

One thing depravity is absolutely NOT is being BORN unable to respond positively to the Good News of Christ Jesus, He tells His very words are life and people can believe and place their faith in Him.

This is the un-corrupted view of salvation.. not the one where people can only deny the GOOD NEWS unless regenerated first ... yet to be substantiated by scripture with a clear teaching from Paul or Jesus.

Your salvation is based on determinism and decree .. a corrupted and opposite view of everything scriptural...shown over and over again by many on this thread.

Don't tell me. Tell @Genez. See what he thinks.

 

[Cameron143]

What does one have to do with the other.

Nothing.

Just like this idea people are born in "unbelief"

You have to know something to be incredulous about it.

Everyone in Adam is under condemnation. Everyone in Adam is in unbelief.

 

[Cameron143]

God does not change the individual until after he is saved.
It was then that you became a new creation in Christ.

On the other hand...

Prevenient grace takes place in drawing us.
Forcing our flesh to become of non-effect, while allowing our soul to be made temporarily free of the depravity of the flesh.
Enabling our soul to think though for itself what God is presenting to that soul to consider.

Prevenient means to "come before."
Before one is saved.

Don't tell me. Tell @HeIsHere.

 

[Jordon]

How was His will in Adam when Adam had not eaten from the Tree of Life?

Adam was of the natural world. First comes the natural, then the Spiritual.

The word says adams seed
is sown in dishonour but raised in glory.

Then at what point would have Adams seed in the garden been sown in honour had he not sinned. Making reference to the fact his seed must have had honour to begin with. Honour being glory.

Then his word elsewhere speaks about all seeds having glory before they go into new life not talking about men, but plants stars etc.

So is it possible the seed in Adam had his will but his freedom of thought never, which means he had to accept the lords offering for life from his offering.

The tree of life was there waiting to give him life giving fruit had he chosen to accept his life

 

[Magenta]

Don't tell me. Tell @HeIsHere.

He is contradicting himself. He says God restrains the flesh so one can believe, now he is saying nothing changes until after you believe.

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

Part of the problem is that people think that making choices equates to the will being free. They say such things as, if the will is not free, then people are puppets. This is a logical fallacy. Making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, or what book to choose out of the mountains of them available, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing those things in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.

This is the crux of the conversation, such as it is, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend while in the flesh as are all before becoming indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot, that flesh cannot please God, that flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death, not life. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit... there are none good, no, not one! Even when asked who can be saved, Jesus said that with man it was impossible, and there are other places where we are explicitly told it is not by the will of the flesh or man but by God's will that any are saved. Some philosophy books have said man has a will that is free and that is enough for many to throw over a slew of Scriptural truths. They ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man.

@Magenta : Wow: Brilliant stuff, sister! You're a genius! I see what you're getting at now!

 

[Rufus]

You do not even know what that is?

​

Pelagianism is a Christian theological position that holds that the fall did not taint human nature ​

and that humans by divine grace have free will to achieve human perfection.​

​

You are off in the toolies with that accusation.
No one here is denying having a fallen nature.

But in your universe man's "fallen nature" amounts to nothing more than a bruise or two and a few scratches maybe, from which men can pick themselves up, dust themselves off and get on with life. Man's will was left perfectly intact!

 

[Genez]

The Abrahamic covenant is part of the covenant of grace. Read John 8:56. Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus' day and saw it before the cross. All the promises of God are in Christ yea, and in Him amen.

Abraham was not placed in Christ when he believed.

Only the Bride of Christ is placed in Christ when (during the church age) someone believes in Christ.

We become like Eve's body was in Adam's body, before God removed bone and flesh to reveal her to Adam.

Right now we are IN HIM, seated with Him in heavenly places!

At the resurrection, he can look at us and say in a way similar to what Adam said when he first saw the woman...

"Now! This is my Bride! She is bone of my bones, and glorious flesh of my glorious flesh!"​

Yup... That is why we in our resurrection bodies will be called His Bride!

In the meanwhile?

Our 'old man' bodies have been crucified with Christ!

​

Galatians 2:20​

​

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me."​

Grace and peace!