Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

What!? God didn't ask Paul for his permission first!? FWers will be aghast!

What's the funny face for ?

Are you being sarcastic towards me ?

 

[Jordon]

You mean like the unilateral promises of the New Covenant by which God alone fulfills those promises!? And this is why the NC is very much unlike the Old!

I mean why would anyone think God does not use his will over people as a good thing

 

[lrs68]

We only read TWO BIBLICAL ACCOUNTS where the person was going to do the wrong thing but God inserted His Will and both times was concerning the Hebrew People [Pharaoh and Esau].

After that we don't see anything like this and it's been 5,000 years.

So why would something God did 5,000 years ago would people create a doctrine like God sends people to Hell.

Biblically He sent 2 people and no more.

So why have a doctrine built on lies?

 

[Jordon]

Eve's eternal spiritual existence was made certain and secure the moment God made His decree about her to the Serpent (Gen 3:15); for the decree clearly implies that God reconciled Eve unto Himself the moment he decreed the enmity between her and the Serpent.

oh and was she born again at that moment to ? What about her sin nature had that been heeled too ?

You know there's something wrong with many of you here you just don't seem to want to listen, I said when I first joined this thread

God must have put a hedge of protection over eve because he clothed her and because of this verse.

It's just like none of you listen and your all to engrossed with demonising each other to listen

 

[Jordon]

What!? God didn't ask Paul for his permission first!? FWers will be aghast!

I'm not bothered what the free willers think, the fact is God went against Paul's will.

 

[Rufus]

Im having a day of fasting thanks for asking

I wonder do you always get this wound up about Adam and eve ?
Do you think your entitled to speak to me like this for the question I asked ? Was my question really worthy of your response ?

How could you even consider God using his will over people as rape ?

Are you ok really


Ok so lets look at your response to which it's the first I've heard, So God clothed Adam and eve in righteousness, did he ?, so adam and eve, where they born again at that moment when God clothed them.

Or was it he clothed them in faith ?
Did they know they where clothed in faith ?

There suppose to be given a choice in your book first aren't they ?

No offense sir but do you suffer with anger

Did you even notice me say did God look at there whole life first before clothing them ?

Did you notice that ?

Have you even notice me say in this thread is it possible Adam and eve could have been saved ?

Do you even know what your saying ?

Do you think it would be right for you to be given salvation without God looking at your whole first.

ok go ahead sir tell me your faith with anger always works well that one

Just a little heads up for you about CV5. He gets extremely emotional and uber-imaginative when it comes to Adam. He considers Adam to be the superhero of the human race, even though scripture speaks of Adam only in negative terms. I wonder if he thinks Adam leaves the Last Adam in the dust?

Also, for your info, Eve acknowledged God twice after He saved her; whereas there is no such record for Adam. Plus as you have correctly pointed out earlier, Adam named his wife "Eve" because he understood God saved her which made her the [spiritual] mother of all the living.

 

[Rufus]

oh and was she born again at that moment to ? What about her sin nature had that been heeled too ?

You know there's something wrong with many of you here you just don't seem to want to listen, I said when I first joined this thread

God must have put a hedge of protection over eve because he clothed her and because of this verse.

It's just like none of you listen and your all to engrossed with demonising each other to listen

Eve demonstrated evidence of faith after God saved her, so there's that. And the sin nature of any saint is never healed entirely in this age. That won't happen until the General Resurrection at the Parousia.

 

[Rufus]

I'm not bothered what the free willers think, the fact is God went against Paul's will.

And God actually does that quite often! He is running and in total control of his ALL his creation all the time and will be in control for all eternity in the visible, eternal kingdom.

 

[Rufus]

Are you saying that it's possible to not trust Jesus, live in same sex relationships, live like the devil, be evil and cruel to everyone and still go to Heaven?

What you just wrote: Do you think that is God's will, purpose and plan for His chosen people? If not, what do you think is His will, purpose and plan for those He saves?

 

[Jordon]

Eve demonstrated evidence of faith after God saved her, so there's that. And the sin nature of any saint is never healed entirely in this age. That won't happen until the General Resurrection at the Parousia.

so she demonstrated faith ok good.

Ok so her sin nature wasn't healed I get that so what about her fallen condition was that healed, When she demonstrated faith, ! what condition would you consider her to be in when she demonstrated faith ?

How was she able to demonstrate faith.

 

[Rufus]

Magenta partially answered my meaning with John 6:44.

Even though Magenta is using a 3rd version definition we know that a person has to decide to go to Church to hear the Gospel preached. We know once that person hears the Gospel they choose to go to the altar and pray. Nowhere did God come to that person and physically drag that person to Church and then to the altar.

This is why I use the word God leads because we feel the drawing and we follow. That is not nor ever will be physically dragged. That's a Rapture definition.

I suppose the repentant thief on the cross never made it to paradise on the day he died, according to your rigid salvation formula!

 

[Rufus]

so she demonstrated faith ok good.

Ok so her sin nature wasn't healed I get that so what about her fallen condition was that healed, When she demonstrated faith, ! what condition would you consider her to be in when she demonstrated faith ?

How was she able to demonstrate faith.

The same way any saint in either the Old or New Covenant dispensations have always "demonstrated faith" -- BY God precious grace.

I don't understand what you mean by "her fallen condition". God certainly forgave her because He actually befriended her by reconciling her to Himself.

It's noteworthy that God's anger burned against Adam in Gen 3:23-24. Eve is conspicuously absent in these two verses.

 

[lrs68]

What you just wrote: Do you think that is God's will, purpose and plan for His chosen people? If not, what do you think is His will, purpose and plan for those He saves?

To be like Him

 

[Rufus]

What's the funny face for ?

Are you being sarcastic towards me ?

No! Toward the heresy of the FWers!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

yep paul letters, always do make you think , do you know what was meant completely by Paul being given a thorn in his side. I know why the thorn was given, but what exactly was the thorn do you know.

no he never asked it for it no.

That was given against his will.

Which means a persons own will is very limited when it comes to God.

I'm not bothered what the free willers think, the fact is God went against Paul's will.

in 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul makes clear that it was the messenger of satan that was the thorn in the flesh ... Paul then goes on to explain that he takes pleasure in persecutions and distresses for Christ's sake.

In 2 Corinthians 11:24-33, Paul says he was beaten 5 times (receiving 39 stripes each time); 3 times he was beaten with rods; once he was stoned; he escaped through a window in a basket (Acts 9:20-23) ... people who were manipulated by satan were thorns in the side of Paul.

In 2 Corinthians 11:26, Paul says In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren ... so it's not only people who were thorns in his side ... but the various situations he found himself in. satan uses various methods ... people, situations, temptations ... to get us to turn from the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul makes clear that when we find ourselves in these situations ... where we are weak against satan's onslaught ... the strength and power of the Lord Jesus Christ completes what is lacking in us to bring us through each situation.

So your claim that "God went against Paul's will" is not Scripturally accurate. God's will was for Paul to rely on Him during times of satan's onslaught ... and what Paul learned from enduring the attacks from satan was that he could absolutely rely on God's strength in every situation ... for when we are weak, then we realy on His strength.
.

 

[Rufus]

I mean why would anyone think God does not use his will over people as a good thing

I have actually asked this question often on this thread. All I got for answers were crickets. In fact, God does indeed exert his divine prerogative over ALL creation just by virtue of the fact that He actively restrains evil 24/7 around the entire world.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6 v 44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). [He draws us with loving kindness that we may repent.] Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part. (from GQ) So much for divine intervention not being needed at all. And so much for God not acting unilaterally in matters of salvation.

I believe all who have posted in this thread agree that God makes the first move when it comes to salvation.

The free will camp is washed out. They have the man who is a slave to sin and opposed to the things of God deciding with no help from God at all choosing to walk into the light which he hates as a lover of darkness and slave to sin. The free willer essentially claims these truths about the unregenerated man are not true. According to them, he can receive and comprehend the spiritual things of God even though Scripture says he cannot. According to them, he can summit to and obey God even though Scripture says he cannot.

What Scripture tells us the natural man cannot comprehend concerning the spiritual things of God is that which goes beyond the milk of the Word ...

a lot of folks who are not born again believe that God created the heavens and the earth. They are still unregenerated but they do believe in a Creator.

a lot of folks who are not born again believe that parents should train their children and children should obey their parents. They are still unregenerated but they do believe in this parent/child relationship.

a lot of folks who are not born again believe that a person should not steal, murder, lie. They are still unregenerated but they do believe in these fundamental truths set forth in Scripture.

However, there are spiritual matters which unregenerated folks cannot understand ... and Scripture even goes so far as to indicate that those who are born again yet still babes in Christ who need to feed on the milk of the Word cannot understand matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel/milk of the Word ... just sayin'
.

 

[Jordon]

The same way any saint in either the Old or New Covenant dispensations have always "demonstrated faith" -- BY God precious grace.

I don't understand what you mean by "her fallen condition". God certainly forgave her because He actually befriended her by reconciling her to Himself.

It's noteworthy that God's anger burned against Adam in Gen 3:23-24. Eve is conspicuously absent in these two verses.

ok so I can understand she demonstrated it by God's grace.

But it's not possible to you to demonstrate faith under gods enabling grace in a fallen condition ?

Because it seems your suggesting eve was no longer fallen where as Adam was ?

So what about eves punishment are you saying that took away her fallen condition ?

How do you know her fallen condition was removed straight away.

I mean I can understand it on the basis that God knew her whole life so she was always saved Anyway . But surely just like everyone else she had to wait until her fallen condition was healed.

 

[lrs68]

I suppose the repentant thief on the cross never made it to paradise on the day he died, according to your rigid salvation formula!

My Bible says the Thief told his buddy they deserve to die and basically asked for forgiveness. So it shows his effort 100%

 

[Jordon]

in 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul makes clear that it was the messenger of satan that was the thorn in the flesh ... Paul then goes on to explain that he takes pleasure in persecutions and distresses for Christ's sake.

In 2 Corinthians 11:24-33, Paul says he was beaten 5 times (receiving 39 stripes each time); 3 times he was beaten with rods; once he was stoned; he escaped through a window in a basket (Acts 9:20-23) ... people who were manipulated by satan were thorns in the side of Paul.

In 2 Corinthians 11:26, Paul says In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren ... so it's not only people who were thorns in his side ... but the various situations he found himself in. satan uses various methods ... people, situations, temptations ... to get us to turn from the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul makes clear that when we find ourselves in these situations ... where we are weak against satan's onslaught ... the strength and power of the Lord Jesus Christ completes what is lacking in us to bring us through each situation.

So your claim that "God went against Paul's will" is not Scripturally accurate. God's will was for Paul to rely on Him during times of satan's onslaught ... and what Paul learned from enduring the attacks from satan was that he could absolutely rely on God's strength in every situation ... for when we are weak, then we realy on His strength.
.

It is accurate Paul says he was given a thorn in his side

Who gives him it ? Are you going to tell me satan did ?

Ok so are you on the belief that God doesn't go against any persons will Without permission ?