Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

No! Toward the heresy of the FWers!

ok no probs

 

[Rufus]

ok so I can understand she demonstrated it by God's grace.

But it's not possible to you to demonstrate faith under gods enabling grace in a fallen condition ?

Because it seems your suggesting eve was no longer fallen where as Adam was ?

So what about eves punishment are you saying that took away her fallen condition ?

How do you know her fallen condition was removed straight away.

I mean I can understand it on the basis that God knew her whole life so she was always saved Anyway . But surely just like everyone else she had to wait until her fallen condition was healed.

I'm still unclear what you mean by "her fallen condition". Salvation is always a process. The very first time she acknowledged God was after Cain's birth which was at least 9 months (and quite possibly even longer since Scripture is silent on the amount of time that lapsed after Gen 3:15). Maybe Eve had Cain years afterward!

What I'm saying about Eve is that God clearly forgave her whereas there is no such evidence for Adam not withstanding Gen 3:21 which many wrongly believe tells the entire story about our first parents' spiritual condition. But of course, that verse does not tell the entire story. It only tells one side: What God provided. What that particular verse doesn't tell us, however, is A&E's response to that provision. In Adam's case there is zero evidence from other post-fall texts that he ever responded positively; whereas we do have two passages that clearly suggest Eve did respond favorably at some later date of God's gracious provision.

 

[Jordon]

I'm still unclear what you mean by "her fallen condition". Salvation is always a process. The very first time she acknowledged God was after Cain's birth which was at least 9 months (and quite possibly even longer since Scripture is silent on the amount of time that lapsed after Gen 3:15). Maybe Eve had Cain years afterward!

What I'm saying about Eve is that God clearly forgave her whereas there is no such evidence for Adam not withstanding Gen 3:21 which many wrongly believe tells the entire story about our first parents' spiritual condition. But of course, that verse does not tell the entire story. It only tells one side: What God provided. What that particular verse doesn't tell us, however, is A&E's response to that provision. In Adam's case there is zero evidence from other post-fall texts that he ever responded positively; whereas we do have two passages that clearly suggest Eve did respond favorably at some later date of God's gracious provision.

Right so if seems your saying God forgave eve before Adam.

And your nit sure when eve was healed of her fallen condition.

And your not sure what a fallen condition is.

Is that correct ?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly, and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come, although we have no part in the drawing.

agree that it is God Who draws.

I am interested in your comment that some "come willingly" as everything I have ever read from you indicates those who are unregenerate cannot, under any circumstance, respond positively to the things of God. If I do not understand your claim properly, please clarify for me.

I am also interested in your comment that some are "dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come". I believe God reaches out to mankind more than one time over the course of the life of a person. Not all believe the first time ... second time ... third time ... but eventually some do believe. Is that what you mean by being "dragged unwillingly"?

I also believe God reaches out more than one time to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject God's drawing. These are the ones who will be cast into the lake of fire.

thanks for your consideration in responding (if you do choose to respond).
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[Jordon]

I'm still unclear what you mean by "her fallen condition". Salvation is always a process. The very first time she acknowledged God was after Cain's birth which was at least 9 months (and quite possibly even longer since Scripture is silent on the amount of time that lapsed after Gen 3:15). Maybe Eve had Cain years afterward!

What I'm saying about Eve is that God clearly forgave her whereas there is no such evidence for Adam not withstanding Gen 3:21 which many wrongly believe tells the entire story about our first parents' spiritual condition. But of course, that verse does not tell the entire story. It only tells one side: What God provided. What that particular verse doesn't tell us, however, is A&E's response to that provision. In Adam's case there is zero evidence from other post-fall texts that he ever responded positively; whereas we do have two passages that clearly suggest Eve did respond favorably at some later date of God's gracious provision.

so a fallen condition means you are dead in your sins.

It means you need to be made alive.

Ok so for me they where not forgiven at first because they where both banished from the garden.

Why would you think clothing them was forgiving them, and why would you think putting enmity between eves of spring and the serpents offspring was an act of forgiving Adam and eve.

Why would God need to forgive somebody in a fallen Condition,

As they've already suffered there fait, so it was only the case God needed to heal them.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is accurate Paul says he was given a thorn in his side

yes ... And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure ( 2 Cor 12:7).

Who gives him it ? Are you going to tell me satan did ?

the verse states the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan.

Ok so are you on the belief that God doesn't go against any persons will Without permission ?

you were discussing the thorn in the flesh spoken of by Paul. I showed you that the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan.

God warns the believers that there is an adversary who walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

God also encourages believers by telling us that He is in us and He is greater than the adversary. We can rest in Him ... He will guard our hearts and minds as we bring everything to Him in prayer and supplication with thanksgiving.
.

 

[cv5]

My Bible says the Thief told his buddy they deserve to die and basically asked for forgiveness. So it shows his effort 100%

Keyword: ASKED.
That episode AGAIN destroys Calvinistic doctrine. As does the entire Bible cover to cover.

 

[Jordon]

yes ... And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure ( 2 Cor 12:7).





the verse states the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan.





you were discussing the thorn in the flesh spoken of by Paul. I showed you that the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan.

God warns the believers that there is an adversary who walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

God also encourages believers by telling us that He is in us and He is greater than the adversary. We can rest in Him ... He will guard our hearts and minds as we bring everything to Him in prayer and supplication with thanksgiving.
.

ok so your unable to answer if the thorn was given by God, and you can still think your right in saying im not accurate when I say it was given against his will.

So if Paul said he was given it to be conceited, which translates to, to stop him from becoming to proud.

Since when has any man been able to tame his own pride

 

[Jordon]

you were discussing the thorn in the flesh spoken of by Paul. I showed you that the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan.[/SIZE]

[

before the discussion gets lots, you engaged in a discussion, I was having with Someone else about whether or not God goes against the will of a person.

So that's what I'm asking you

 

[reneweddaybyday]

ok so your unable to answer if the thorn was given by God

I answered the question ... I told you the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan. Who sends the messenger of satan ? ... does God send the messenger of satan ? ... or does satan send the messenger of satan ?

and you can still think your right in saying im not accurate when I say it was given against his will.

where did I state you are not accurate when you say it was given against his will?

Paul said he besought the Lord three times that the thorn in the flesh might depart from him (2 Cor 12:8).

God's answer was My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me (2 Cor 12:9).

So what Paul learned from his afflictions was Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong (2 Cor 12:10).

Paul learned a valuable lesson ... a lesson that we, in our day and time, would do well to learn.

So if Paul said he was given it to be conceited, which translates to, to stop him from becoming to proud.

Since when has any man been able to tame his own pride

In 2 Cor 12:1-6, Paul states that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter (vs 4). What Paul saw and what Paul heard we do not know ... we can only imagine how amazing it was to be caught up to paradise.

And, yes, 2 Cor 12:7 states lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

I do not believe God sent the messenger of satan to buffet Paul. I believe the messenger of satan was sent by satan.

I also believe God worked within Paul to sustain him as he went through the ordeals he described in 2 Cor 11:24-33. God works within us as we go through our trials and afflictions.

Read 1 Peter 5:6-11 ... God warns us that we have an adversary who walks about seeking whom he may devour. God also encourages us telling us that as we resist the onslaught of our adversary, He is working within us to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle us. We don't always recognize what God is working in us as we go through our times of affliction because we are so focussed on what's going on around us, but 1 Peter 5:10 is a great and precious promise we can hold to and know that we know that we know that God is working in us even in our suffering.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

before the discussion gets lots, you engaged in a discussion, I was having with Someone else about whether or not God goes against the will of a person.

So that's what I'm asking you

did I answer the question in Post 17,970?
.

 

[Magenta]

In 2 Cor 12:1-6, Paul states that he was caught up into paradise,

He said he knows a man who was, not that he was.

 

[Jordon]

did I answer the question in Post 17,970?
.

do you believe your completely right ?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He said he knows a man who was, not that he was.

2 Cor 12:7 clarifies who the man was And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations

for further information as to who Paul was referring to in 2 Cor 12:2, see here.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

do you believe your completely right ?

we can continue to discuss ... do you have further insight to add to the record?

you've made some good comments ... "to stop him from becoming to proud" ... that's true. It's also true that the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan ... and God never left Paul alone to deal with satan on his own.

You also indicated "I know why the thorn was given, but what exactly was the thorn do you know".

I believe that question has been answered.
.

 

[Jordon]

we can continue to discuss ... do you have further insight to add to the record?

you've made some good comments ... "to stop him from becoming to proud" ... that's true. It's also true that the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan ... and God never left Paul alone to deal with satan on his own.

You also indicated "I know why the thorn was given, but what exactly was the thorn do you know".

I believe that question has been answered.
.

well ok we can continue this discussion but have you completely answered whether God went against Paul's will in this discussion as why did Paul need to ask God to remove a messenger of satan . Then after this discussion, theres many more discussion whether God goes against the will of his own people for different reason, and there's lots and lots of instances to get through

Then after that I would like to reverse the discussion and talk about whether God goes against the will of people who have fallen out of line completely unfortunately they where born like that and need healing, like there dead in there sins and need to get made alive.
And theres lots of instances there to

 

[reneweddaybyday]

well ok we can continue this discussion but have you completely answered whether God went against Paul's will in this discussion as why did Paul need to ask God to remove a messenger of satan .

do you believe God sent the messenger of satan? that is a question I asked you in Post 19,970.

Who sends the messenger of satan ? ... does God send the messenger of satan ? ... or does satan send the messenger of satan ?

Then after this discussion, theres many more discussion whether God goes against the will of his own people for different reason, and there's lots and lots of instances to get through

I think it's the other way around ... people go against the will of God.

Then after that I would like to reverse the discussion and talk about whether God goes against the will of people who have fallen out of line completely unfortunately they where born like that and need healing, like there dead in there sins and need to get made alive.
And theres lots of instances there to

Have you looked at the record in Gen 4 relating to Abel and Cain?
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[Jordon]

do you believe God sent the messenger of satan? that is a question I asked you in Post 19,970.







I think it's the other way around ... people go against the will of God.





Have you looked at the record in Gen 4 relating to Abel and Cain?
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Well there.are 2 questions really, one, since when does Satan give someone a thorn in there side to stop them from becoming to be proud.

Satan wants all men to fall by pride, as it was pride of disobedience that caused the fall, so next question is why did Paul need to ask God to remove the messenger of Satan, when Jesus said for believers all they have to do is say get away from me satan in the lords name and they will flee.

Now my last and final message on thought.

What is meant by a messenger of Satan ?

Are the messengers of satan as far gone as satan himself.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Well there.are 2 questions really, one, since when does Satan give someone a thorn in there side to stop them from becoming to be proud.

did you read the record in 2 Cor 11:24-33? ... satan's various attacks against Paul are revealed there ... does the record reflect that satan was trying to stop Paul from becoming too proud? no, satan attacked Paul because Paul was speaking the truth of God's Word ... here's what Paul wrote to Timothy ...

2 Timothy 3:11-13 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Satan wants all men to fall by pride, as it was pride of disobedience that caused the fall, so next question is why did Paul need to ask God to remove the messenger of Satan, when Jesus said for believers all they have to do is say get away from me satan in the lords name and they will flee.

again, when you read the record in 2 Cor 11, you see that there were many different times in which Paul endured the onslaught of satan.

Read the record of the temptation of the Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 4. After the Lord Jesus Christ was tempted, Scripture tells us And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season (Luke 4:13). The devil departed "for a season" ... that means the devil returned. satan comes and goes in his efforts to sway people.

The only way the believer can overcome the attacks from the adversary is to stay strong in the Lord. There is nothing in and of ourselves that we can rely on to overcome ... it is the Lord Who stands with us as He works within us to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle us as we endure (1 Peter 5:10).

Read also the record in James 4:

James 4:7-10 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

the only way we can resist the devil is in drawing near to God.

Now my last and final message on thought.

What is meant by a messenger of Satan ?

Are the messengers of satan as far gone as satan himself.

When satan rebelled against God, there were angels who fell with him. Some of the fallen angels were chained in darkness at the time of the flood. However, not all fallen angels were chained ... so we've got minions of satan at work in the world doing the bidding of satan. satan and his minions influence world systems ... government, education, religion, the arts, business, media, etc., etc.

God tells us to be aware ... be vigilant ... guard our hearts and minds ... and the best way to do this is to continue to study Scripture, pray and develop an intimate relationship with God, fellowship with believers.

The Lord Jesus Christ defeated satan and the Lord Jesus Christ is in every born again believer. He will help us through times of distress and persecution ... just as Paul wrote to Timothy ... out of them all the Lord delivered me.
.

 

[Jordon]

did you read the record in 2 Cor 11:24-33? ... satan's various attacks against Paul are revealed there ... does the record reflect that satan was trying to stop Paul from becoming too proud? no, satan attacked Paul because Paul was speaking the truth of God's Word ... here's what Paul wrote to Timothy ...

2 Timothy 3:11-13 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.





again, when you read the record in 2 Cor 11, you see that there were many different times in which Paul endured the onslaught of satan.

Read the record of the temptation of the Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 4. After the Lord Jesus Christ was tempted, Scripture tells us And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season (Luke 4:13). The devil departed "for a season" ... that means the devil returned. satan comes and goes in his efforts to sway people.

The only way the believer can overcome the attacks from the adversary is to stay strong in the Lord. There is nothing in and of ourselves that we can rely on to overcome ... it is the Lord Who stands with us as He works within us to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle us as we endure (1 Peter 5:10).

Read also the record in James 4:

James 4:7-10 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

the only way we can resist the devil is in drawing near to God.





When satan rebelled against God, there were angels who fell with him. Some of the fallen angels were chained in darkness at the time of the flood. However, not all fallen angels were chained ... so we've got minions of satan at work in the world doing the bidding of satan. satan and his minions influence world systems ... government, education, religion, the arts, business, media, etc., etc.

God tells us to be aware ... be vigilant ... guard our hearts and minds ... and the best way to do this is to continue to study Scripture, pray and develop an intimate relationship with God, fellowship with believers.

The Lord Jesus Christ defeated satan and the Lord Jesus Christ is in every born again believer. He will help us through times of distress and persecution ... just as Paul wrote to Timothy ... out of them all the Lord delivered me.
.

ok well I could say more but no it's, you have belief and I have mine.

But tomorrow we can carry on the discussion about other good stuff to