Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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1 Corinthians 3 v 19-21a, 1 Corinthians 1 v 19 ~ The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” Therefore, stop boasting in men. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
 
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The free will camp assumes, with no supporting text and contrary to many verses that evidence the opposite, that the man of flesh is free to choose, and will believe, that which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and to which he is inherently opposed with his heart of stone. There is simply no getting around the fact that this is the core of their belief, and it flies in the face of what Scripture actually teaches about the natural man who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light, blinded to truth and under the power and influence of Satan: he serves the law of sin which brings forth fruit unto death, not life. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, his incurably wicked heart hates God, and hears the gospel message as foolishness. Praise the Lord if He has set you free!
 
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rogerg said:
No problem

Kind of a complicated answer but I'll give it a shot under the assumption you'll stay interested through it

I'll start with a question: why do you think that "believe" is in one tense and "will be saved" is in a different tense if believing
saves?
Click to expand...

"believe* is gramatically in command form: the primary cause that results in the conditional future tense "will be saved"


Same reason John 3 says whoever believes will be saved, and does not say whover is not already saved will not believe.

The Word is that whoever does not believe is condemned already, not, whoever is condemned already does not believe.


at the same time, faith comes by hearing - - not hearing comes by faith, and it is God who makes the ear that hears. but this doesn't mean we can rewrite Ephesians and say we have faith by salvation through grace.

what we have, is Salvation by grace through faith.


the Bible not saying what we think it ought to say is a blessing. it means there is a treasure for us to uncover, something so wonderful we barely have capacity to comprehend it.
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Who said man knows the way from himself?
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HeIsHere is one who has said man needs nothing from God to come to belief. A dyed in the wool free willer.

But there are those among us who are not fooled when she tries to pull that wool over our eyes.

In fact there is quite a long growing list of things she has said that are the exact opposite of what Scripture claims.

But she has never acknowledged any of it. And it bores her comrades in arms to be thusly informed.
 
Magenta said:
HeIsHere is one who has said man needs nothing from God to come to belief. A dyed in the wool free willer.
Click to expand...

I think what she probably said is that man can believe of himself when God opens his heart to the truth. In other words, God leads a person to Christ and then that person is persuaded by the spirit that Christ is the truth and puts his confidence in him. That is what faith is: being persuaded by and trusting God's words.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I think what she probably said is that man can believe of himself when God opens his heart to the truth. In other words, God leads a person to Christ and then that person is persuaded by the spirit that Christ is the truth and puts his confidence in him. That is what faith is: being persuaded by and trusting God's words.
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You obviously did not comprehend what I said at all. Read it again.

But of course even though you were not here then, she is right and I am wrong, right?

I can expect nothing better from you at this point.

She said divine intervention was not required at all.

Jesus did say otherwise. Quite the opposite in fact. But she attempts to shame those who affirm that.

As far as she is concerned personal divine intervention makes God unfair. She has claimed this numerous times.

She would rather blaspheme God than admit she was wrong.
 
Her and her buddy who says God would never act unilaterally in matters of salvation. The same
guy who claimed God raped Mary if He did not ask her permission. PS~ He did not ask.

They are birds of a feather. What spirit would you call that???
 
Magenta said:
Her and her buddy who says God would never act unilaterally in matters of salvation.
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Evidently neither does God act unilaterally in matters of eschatology.

Hos 5:15 - I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.


Mat 23:39 - For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Poor determinists. Oh how I would that the Lord to open their eyes. I pity them.
 
lrs68 said:
Actually if we were to read the Scroll that Luke wrote Acts this would read like this, the correct true way:

And God hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord.
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They should. Again, doesn't say can or will. You just want it to say that.
 
posthuman said:
"believe* is gramatically in command form: the primary cause that results in the conditional future tense "will be saved"
Click to expand...

To believe is a command but it doesn't bring salvation. Salvation is given from the grace of God through Jesus Christ not from believing - belief is a result, not a cause. It's the timing is what I was getting at. To cut to the chase, while there is one salvation, it can be viewed as consisting of two distinct parts - one providing a basis for the other.
The first part is when one is saved during their lifetime spiritually from which they come to belief and demonstrate it; the second part is to actually be saved - experience salvation - from the wrath of God on judgment day. So, when we read "shall be saved" it is speaking about the future salvation on judgment day, and really, that is the important part and the ultimate purpose of salvation. Belief demonstrates that spiritual salvation has occurred because it is its byproduct, but it is not the cause. Salvation happens first, belief follows afterwards

[Rom 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[Act 18:27 KJV] 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
 
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Magenta said:
Her and her buddy who says God would never act unilaterally in matters of salvation. The same
guy who claimed God raped Mary if He did not ask her permission. PS~ He did not ask.

They are birds of a feather. What spirit would you call that???
Click to expand...
so if God never acts unilaterally in matters of salvation what exactly do they mean by that ?

I know it's only Gods choice, and that's what unilaterally mean doesn't it , it means one persons choice, something done by one person ?
 
Magenta said:
The same
guy who claimed God raped Mary if He did not ask her permission. PS~ He did not ask.
Click to expand...
Neither did David ask before he raped Bathsheba. Nor did the angels ask when they raped the daughters of men as many as they chose. Both episodes declared by God to be great evil. Then came terrible consequences.

So then you are saying that God has a double standard of righteousness? Why? Do you think that God's sovereignty overrides spiritual law?
 
Jordon said:
so if God never acts unilaterally in matters of salvation what exactly do they mean by that ?

I know it's only Gods choice, and that's what unilaterally mean doesn't it , it means one persons choice, something done by one person ?
Click to expand...
It means they think if God does anything to move someone toward belief they are being forced, and
that makes Him an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their so-called "free" will...
which is an idolatrous fantasy anyways but they refuse to admit that. They have been taken captive!
(And those are his words, not mine = the unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people etc).

Even though God's revealed written Word plainly says He draws us with loving kindness...

That we will repent. To them that is being forced. Just as they cannot or simply refuse to see the difference between the
natural man and the spiritual man, they refuse to acknowledge the difference between being enabled and being forced.

From-Romans7-18-19.png

From Romans 7 verses 18-19 Journey from Inability to Ability I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out... I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. Praise be to God for circumcising my sinful nature, causing me to obey by putting His Holy Spirit in me, and giving me a new heart.
 
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Magenta said:
It means they think if God does anything to move someone toward belief they are being forced, and
that makes Him an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their so-called "free" will =
which is an idolatrous fantasy anyways but they refuse to admit that. They have been taken captive!

Even though God's revealed written Word plainly says He draws us with loving kindness...

That we will repent. To them that is being forced. Just as they cannot or simply refuse to see the difference between the
natural man and the spiritual man, they refuse to acknowledge the difference between being enabled and being forced.

From-Romans7-18-19.png

From Romans 7 verses 18-19 Journey from Inability to Ability I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out... I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. Praise be to God for circumcising my sinful nature, causing me to obey by putting His Holy Spirit in me, and giving me a new heart.
Click to expand...
Magenta said:
It means they think if God does anything to move someone toward belief they are being forced, and
that makes Him an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their so-called "free" will =
which is an idolatrous fantasy anyways but they refuse to admit that. They have been taken captive!

Even though God's revealed written Word plainly says He draws us with loving kindness...

That we will repent. To them that is being forced. Just as they cannot or simply refuse to see the difference between the
natural man and the spiritual man, they refuse to acknowledge the difference between being enabled and being forced.

From-Romans7-18-19.png

From Romans 7 verses 18-19 Journey from Inability to Ability I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out... I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. Praise be to God for circumcising my sinful nature, causing me to obey by putting His Holy Spirit in me, and giving me a new heart.
Click to expand...
oh I see so I'm not surprised by this as others who believe like they do say God let's people sin.

They must be on drugs or something
 
Magenta said:
It means they think if God does anything to move someone toward belief they are being forced, and
that makes Him an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their so-called "free" will...
which is an idolatrous fantasy anyways but they refuse to admit that. They have been taken captive!
(And those are his words, not mine = the unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people etc).

Even though God's revealed written Word plainly says He draws us with loving kindness...

That we will repent. To them that is being forced. Just as they cannot or simply refuse to see the difference between the
natural man and the spiritual man, they refuse to acknowledge the difference between being enabled and being forced.

From-Romans7-18-19.png

From Romans 7 verses 18-19 Journey from Inability to Ability I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out... I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. Praise be to God for circumcising my sinful nature, causing me to obey by putting His Holy Spirit in me, and giving me a new heart.
Click to expand...
yep paul letters, always do make you think , do you know what was meant completely by Paul being given a thorn in his side. I know why the thorn was given, but what exactly was the thorn do you know.
 
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