Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

To believe is a command but it doesn't bring salvation. Salvation is given from the grace of God through Jesus Christ not from believing - belief is a result, not a cause. It's the timing is what I was getting at. To cut to the chase, while there is one salvation, it can be viewed as consisting of two distinct parts - one providing a basis for the other.
The first part is when one is saved during their lifetime spiritually from which they come to belief and demonstrate it; the second part is to actually be saved - experience salvation - from the wrath of God on judgment day. So, when we read "shall be saved" it is speaking about the future salvation on judgment day, and really, that is the important part and the ultimate purpose of salvation. Belief demonstrates that spiritual salvation has occurred because it is its byproduct, but it is not the cause. Salvation happens first, belief follows afterwards

[Rom 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[Act 18:27 KJV] 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Your postulates run contrary to everything Jesus ever said about the gift of salvation freely given to whomsoever in good faith wills to receive Him and it.

They also sound like 10 lbs of bafflegab stuffed into a 5 lbs bag. Just awful to have to trudge through really. Your boss Augustine sounded much more polished and erudite when he was bafflegabbing.
Still just as wrong though.....

 

[Magenta]

yep paul letters, always do make you think , do you know what was meant completely by Paul being
given a thorn in his side. I know why the thorn was given, but what exactly was the thorn do you know.

Nobody knows because he did not say. Lots of conjecture, though...

2 Peter 3 v 15-16 ~ Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[Jordon]

Nobody knows because he did not say. Lots of conjecture, though...

2 Peter 3 v 15-16 ~ Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Yep well I mainly brought that up because, did Paul ask for that thorn in his side ?

 

[Magenta]

Yep well I mainly brought that up because, did Paul ask for that thorn in his side ?

I doubt it. Whatever it was, God allowed it and he said as much =

2 Cor ch 11 v 30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is forever worthy of praise, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus, the governor under King Aretas secured the city of the Damascenes in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his grasp.

2 Corinthians ch 12 v 1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to Paradise. The things he heard were inexpressible, things that man is not permitted to tell.

5 I will boast about such a man, but I will not boast about myself, except in my weaknesses. 6 Even if I wanted to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations.

So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger
of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But

2 Corinthians 12:9-10 But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me. That is why, for the sake of Christ, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong

 

[Jordon]

I doubt it. Whatever it was, God allowed it and he said as much =

2 Cor ch 11 v 30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is forever worthy of praise, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus, the governor under King Aretas secured the city of the Damascenes in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his grasp.

2 Corinthians ch 12 v 1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to Paradise. The things he heard were inexpressible, things that man is not permitted to tell.

5 I will boast about such a man, but I will not boast about myself, except in my weaknesses. 6 Even if I wanted to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations.

So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger
of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But

2 Corinthians 12:9-10 But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me. That is why, for the sake of Christ, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong

no he never asked it for it no.

That was given against his will.

Which means a persons own will is very limited when it comes to God.

So nice scripture btw, I've read them a lot in the past, I used to do challenges when I was kid growing up, of how fast I could break a record in reading a whole book without having to stop to understand it, it's amazing really a 500 page book that takes you 2 weeks to fully read can be done in just 3 days,

It's mainly done by the understanding the character and characters, God's main character is all about leading people with his will.

Like the slaves of egypt scared to leave Egypt because there own will said otherwise.

So God drove the slaves out by having them chased by the Egyptians as the slaves where never going to go through the parted waters, the open door to heaven by themselves

 

[lrs68]

They should. Again, doesn't say can or will. You just want it to say that.

No, I know they don't or will not. I truly am merely showing what God said from the writing of Luke in the Book of Acts.

 

[Magenta]

no he never asked it for it no.

That was given against his will.

Which means a persons own will is very limited when it comes to God.

So nice scripture btw, I've read them a lot in the past, I used to do challenges when I was kid growing up, of how fast I could break a record in reading a whole book without having to stop to understand it, it's amazing really a 500 page book that takes you 2 weeks to fully read can be done in just 3 days,

It's mainly done by the understanding the character and characters, God's main character is all about leading people with his will.

Like the slaves of egypt scared to leave Egypt because there own will said otherwise.

So God drove the slaves out by having them chased by the Egyptians as the slaves where never going to go through the parted waters, the open door to heaven by themselves

Heh, makes me think of the quail coming out of their noses... (Numbers 11)

"And say to the people: Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you will eat meat, because you have
cried out in the hearing of the LORD, saying: ‘Who will feed us meat? For we were better off in Egypt!’
Therefore the LORD will give you meat, and you will eat. You will eat it not for one or two days, nor for
five or ten or twenty days, but for a whole month—until it comes out of your nostrils and makes you
nauseous—because you have rejected the LORD, who is among you, and have cried out before Him,
saying, ‘Why did we ever leave Egypt?’”

 

[Jordon]

Heh, makes me think of the quail coming out of their noses... (Numbers 11)

"And say to the people: Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you will eat meat, because you have
cried out in the hearing of the LORD, saying: ‘Who will feed us meat? For we were better off in Egypt!’
Therefore the LORD will give you meat, and you will eat. You will eat it not for one or two days, nor for
five or ten or twenty days, but for a whole month—until it comes out of your nostrils and makes you
nauseous—because you have rejected the LORD, who is among you, and have cried out before Him,
saying, ‘Why did we ever leave Egypt?’”

please let it be beef burgers lord if it be your will

 

[Magenta]

please let it be beef burgers lord if it be your will

Cheeseburger cheeseburger snl

 

[Magenta]

Man yearns for satisfaction or to be without want. This can only be found when God is one's Shepherd. Since man is unable to reconcile himself to God, he looks for satisfaction in people and things. These of course cannot satisfy, and man finds himself alienated from God and without hope in this world...Ephesians 2:12-13. That is, until God, who is rich in mercy does something about it...Ephesians 2:4.

Psalm 23 v 1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

 

[Jordon]

Cheeseburger cheeseburger snl

paradise

 

[posthuman]

[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:21​

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.​

 

[posthuman]

Adam was taken from the ground and returned to the ground, so the curse of the ground applied to him also. The curse of the ground
encompassed Adam - those not of the ground do not die - everything from/of the ground, dies.

John 11:25-26​

I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?​

​

Adam believes - he lives, though he died, and he will never die.

Genesis 3:20-21 ​

And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.​

 

[Jordon]

John 11:25-26​

I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?​

​

Adam believes - he lives, though he died, and he will never die.

Genesis 3:20-21 ​

And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.​

But what would have happened if the lord didn't cloth them.

Without being loved what happens to a person who isn't living very well.
Without the name that's considered a name for the living like eve, how can you feel like living.

Did eve think her punishment had been taken away because Adam called her eve the mother of living.

Was eves spiritual existence totally secure the moment she was called eve.

Well it may have been but God coupled have looked at her whole life first spent with God . Is that a possibility

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

HeIsHere is one who has said man needs nothing from God to come to belief. A dyed in the wool free willer.

But there are those among us who are not fooled when she tries to pull that wool over our eyes.

In fact there is quite a long growing list of things she has said that are the exact opposite of what Scripture claims.

But she has never acknowledged any of it. And it bores her comrades in arms to be thusly informed.

I think what she probably said is that man can believe of himself when God opens his heart to the truth. In other words, God leads a person to Christ and then that person is persuaded by the spirit that Christ is the truth and puts his confidence in him. That is what faith is: being persuaded by and trusting God's words.

@HeIsHere would you care to clarify?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

To believe is a command but it doesn't bring salvation. Salvation is given from the grace of God through Jesus Christ not from believing - belief is a result, not a cause. It's the timing is what I was getting at. To cut to the chase, while there is one salvation, it can be viewed as consisting of two distinct parts - one providing a basis for the other.
The first part is when one is saved during their lifetime spiritually from which they come to belief and demonstrate it; the second part is to actually be saved - experience salvation - from the wrath of God on judgment day. So, when we read "shall be saved" it is speaking about the future salvation on judgment day, and really, that is the important part and the ultimate purpose of salvation. Belief demonstrates that spiritual salvation has occurred because it is its byproduct, but it is not the cause. Salvation happens first, belief follows afterwards

[Rom 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[Act 18:27 KJV] 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Your exegesis proves that total depravity/inability is real.

 

[Jordon]

Your exegesis proves that total depravity/inability is real.

no your just like others who forget only God is good when it comes to natural man.

Yep ding ding ding I hope the penny drops, not many people get told only God is good when it comes to natural man.

Some do, and some realise that hey having a natural side isn't to bad after all .just like having a pricked conscience or a thorn in your side.

All good things done by God to the natural man, wow who would of believed it eh natural men get gifts from God

You then have to wonder if a natural man can accept a heart of stone.

Wow with all these gifts why is people can't acknowledge so much more, like God being able to look at your whole life spent with him before you where born ?

 

[rogerg]

John 11:25-26​

I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?​

​

Adam believes - he lives, though he died, and he will never die.

Genesis 3:20-21 ​

And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.​

That is correct - all who genuinely trust/believe in Christ as Savior shall never die, but to believe one must first have been saved. Otherwise, the spiritually dead could give spiritual life to themselves which would be impossible - no one is able to give life to themselves.
Given that Jesus alone is the resurrection and the life, then salvation can only be for Him to give and not man.

[Eph 2:4-5 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

 

[LifelongLearner]

Just my opinion, we are mortal and sin is in us since the fall of man. So free will can be excersised sin or not. I don't trust my mind and my desicaions if the word does not apply with God's word. Are worst enemy is ourselves. Just a opinion and life long experience. I've heard pastors say don't go with what you think. Bible. Basic, instructions, before, leaving,earth.

We're close in thinking for sure but surely if one really thinks about it, how can we have free will when we're corrupted and fallen? Adam and Eve most certainly had free will before their fall but after it happened, they/we were increasingly corrupted by sin.

We can't make/enact pure choices and are dominated all through our lives by a powerful elite who call the important shots. It's ridiculous to say we have free will currently, however, many of us on this forum are likely to experience its restoration or something even better, in the near future.

 

[cv5]

"believe* is gramatically in command form: the primary cause that results in the conditional future tense "will be saved"


Same reason John 3 says whoever believes will be saved, and does not say whover is not already saved will not believe.

The Word is that whoever does not believe is condemned already, not, whoever is condemned already does not believe.


at the same time, faith comes by hearing - - not hearing comes by faith, and it is God who makes the ear that hears. but this doesn't mean we can rewrite Ephesians and say we have faith by salvation through grace.

what we have, is Salvation by grace through faith.


the Bible not saying what we think it ought to say is a blessing. it means there is a treasure for us to uncover, something so wonderful we barely have capacity to comprehend it.

The witch of Endor heard (and saw). Then believed. Then proved that she believed by her actions.

So much for @rogerg 's bizarre theories.

Yes @rogerg , both me and @posthuman are perfectly well aware of the fact that you do not have the slightest idea of what I am talking about, while both of us surely do understand.