Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

The only condition is that God chose someone for salvation from His exceeding mercy and grace by His good pleasure.
Being God, He needs no justification beyond that. The good pleasure of His choice is His reason.

[Eph 1:5 KJV] 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The problem with that theory is that God takes no pleasure in death so you effectively having Him schizoid by condemning people to death on the basis of His good pleasure. Eze.18:32

If you contend that the lost are not on the basis of His good pleasure, then you have Him being an irresponsible Father who neglects some of his creation. Eze.18:4

Either way, you have a problem Houston.

 

[Cameron143]

That's the problem you are having.

It does not say "only some."
That was only referring specifically to the many who are saved.
For... "Many of us are saved.

Yet, Jesus died for all who could have been saved, if they so chose.
That is why going to Hell is their own fault.
God can not condemn what he causes outside of the will of another.

​

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."

1 Timothy 4:10​

.

More misunderstanding of scripture. You literally have to deny that scripture teaches Jesus bore the sins of many and not all. Three different verses say many, but you insist it's all.

 

[GWH]

I want to let y'all know that I just started a thread titled The Didache: Doctrines That Build on the Creed
for anyone who wants to discuss those. Hope you will be constructive.
(pun intended :^)

 

[Cameron143]

Odd...

Then why was Jesus telling Nicodemus (who was a prominent Jew) that He was to die for the world, and not include what you just claimed?

He did tell him that. You just don't understand how.

 

[Blain]

Why ignore everything said of man just because you can decide between fries or salad with lunch?

The latter has zero to do with salvation and is merely a red herring to confuse the issue.

Man’s heart is deceitful above all things and incurable (Jer 17 v 9), himself full of evil (Mark 7 v 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 v 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 v 44), does not seek for God (Rom 3 v 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom 5 v 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh (Rom 7 v 18), is a slave of sin (Rom 6 v 20, John 8 v 34, 2 Tim 2 v 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Cor 2 v 14), is dead in his sins (Eph 2 v 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph 2 v 3), is at enmity with God (Eph 2 v 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Rom 8 v 7), blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4 v 4), hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his evil deeds will be exposed (John 3 v 20). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the unregenerated man in Scripture that his inborn inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 v 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph 1 v 4), predestines us to adoption (Eph 1 v 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim 1 v 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thes 2 v 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Rom 2 v 4, 2 Tim 2 v 24-25), grants the act of believing (Phil 1 v 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 v 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Pet 1 v 3), born again not by our will, effort or desire but by His will and desire (John 1 v 12-13), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 v 65), draws people to Himself (John 6 v 44), predestines us to salvation (Rom 8 v 29-30), and circumcises our heart (with the heart one believes [Rom 10 v 10]) as promised in Deut 30 v 6, all according to His purpose (Phil 2 v 13). The stony ground of man’s wicked heart is not good soil. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus said so! (Matt 7 v 18 + 12 v 33; Luke 6 v 43). All this and more weighed against zero verses articulating the so-called “free will” of the natural man, which is a vain man-exalting philosophically based doctrine erroneously and egregiously elevated to Bible truth. Praise God and to His glory, what is impossible with man is possible with God.

My understanding is that they ignore what God's word says because otherwise their entire doctrine falls apart. So how does one deal with such a belief? you can show them plain scriptures but if even that isn't enough then it is just a matter between them and God at that point

 

[cv5]

If he only died for many then his sacrifice would not have been enough to free the world from sin.

Since the creation of Adam to now sin has been in the world and if Jesus dying wasn't enough to free us from it then what would and who would?

Limited atonement seems to disregard the was on sin and make it less about being free from sin and more about being chosen

Atonement is only limited by those who CHOOSE to deny it. Otherwise it would have 100% coverage and effectivity.

 

[Jordon]

I could exercise the right to eat what ever I like .

You could call that free will but I think it's more the case of desire in overcoming the lusts of the flesh wanting it's will to be done,
There's only one way to tame it lol, and that is to eat in moderation, like 5 small meals day instead of 2 huge ones.

But really if free will will had it's way I would be 25 stone lol

 

[Blain]

Atonement is only limited by those who CHOOSE to deny it. Otherwise it would have 100% coverage and effectivity.

See I am a bit on the fence here because while yes I do believe that he died for all not some I also cannot say that we have free will either because the scriptures clearly show otherwise but if free will was taken out of the picture what do we have left?

We have election and predestination and in order to make sense of that one would have to assume that some are predestined to be saved but others not however this goes against his character and he always offers salvation in every area of the bible even to those he knew would reject it so what is the point of him doing that?

Well the only logical reason would be because he does give a little wiggle room for free will or the ability to choose at the very least but then one also has to be drawn to him in order for this to happen.

So how does one have free will and be saved vs not having free will and being saved? This just seems to further complicate the issue

 

[sawdust]

The big exception, of course, are FWers themselves. Man's "freewill" can do virtually anything.

What a load of rubbish you keep spewing out. You have been told time and time again that the will is set free by grace to believe. Believing does nothing more than agree with the truth presented and depends on it as being the reality.

The will, free or bound, creates NOTHING of itself.

You are saved so now your will is free from the bandage of sin. Do you claim to accomplish your own sanctification by means of your free will?

Strewth!!!!! Some people are as thick as three brick out houses.

 

[sawdust]

See I am a bit on the fence here because while yes I do believe that he died for all not some I also cannot say that we have free will either because the scriptures clearly show otherwise but if free will was taken out of the picture what do we have left?

We have election and predestination and in order to make sense of that one would have to assume that some are predestined to be saved but others not however this goes against his character and he always offers salvation in every area of the bible even to those he knew would reject it so what is the point of him doing that?

Well the only logical reason would be because he does give a little wiggle room for free will or the ability to choose at the very least but then one also has to be drawn to him in order for this to happen.

So how does one have free will and be saved vs not having free will and being saved? This just seems to further complicate the issue

The problem as I see it, is the limited atonement mob see salvation as being predicated on the death of Christ but salvation is predicated on belief in the risen Son, not His death. If Christ is not raised, our faith is in vain. 1Cor.15:4 The Cross, Christ's death, dealt with the problem of the barrier of sin which prevented everyone being able to approach God freely.

It is Christ's life that saves us from death, not His death, his death paved the way open for all but God has determined to only save those who believe. And why not, what sane person would want to be loved by someone who would not freely choose to love. Isn't it why we are so grateful because God the Father chose to love in spite of what we are?

 

[Genez]

Why ignore everything said of man just because you can decide between fries or salad with lunch?

The latter has zero to do with salvation and is merely a red herring to confuse the issue.

Grace can SOVEREIGNLY suspend the effects of the flesh over the soul while God gives that person time to decide about God.

Romans 1:21-29​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.​

​

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.​

​

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.​

​

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. ​

Romans 1:21-29 reveals to us that future reprobates (who will be condemned to hell) had been brought by grace to a state of knowing God is real.

They knew God is real.
Therefore, it is not impossible for them to know, as some wish to claim.

They CHOSE freely not to retain the knowledge of God. (free will)

But, if someone chooses to be positive to God's drawing?
And he chooses to retain the knowledge of God?

Then the drawing of God would continue and progressed closer to the finish line, where the Father would then hand that one over to the Son.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, ​

but raise them up at the last day." ​

​

John 6:37-39​

 

[Blain]

The problem as I see it, is the limited atonement mob see salvation as being predicated on the death of Christ but salvation is predicated on belief in the risen Son, not His death. If Christ is not raised, our faith is in vain. 1Cor.15:4 The Cross, Christ's death, dealt with the problem of the barrier of sin which prevented everyone being able to approach God freely.

It is Christ's life that saves us from death, not His death, his death paved the way open for all but God has determined to only save those who believe. And why not, what sane person would want to be loved by someone who would not freely choose to love. Isn't it why we are so grateful because God the Father chose to love in spite of what we are?

Yes I would agree with this, he desires a willing child not a controlled one. But as far as the atonement goes well that is a whole other can of worms one that has many threwads on it to begin with none of which ever had a conclusion people either believe in limited atonement or they don't I have yet to see either side sway in their beliefs.

We all have our own understanding of the scriptures but one thing I like to take into account is the nature of the father which if you have ever encountered him before you know he is warm and loving this nature of his doesn't allow room for pre chosen selection as any parent who has kids would understand not wanting to save one child and not the other

 

[cv5]

See I am a bit on the fence here because while yes I do believe that he died for all not some I also cannot say that we have free will either because the scriptures clearly show otherwise but if free will was taken out of the picture what do we have left?

We have election and predestination and in order to make sense of that one would have to assume that some are predestined to be saved but others not however this goes against his character and he always offers salvation in every area of the bible even to those he knew would reject it so what is the point of him doing that?

Well the only logical reason would be because he does give a little wiggle room for free will or the ability to choose at the very least but then one also has to be drawn to him in order for this to happen.

So how does one have free will and be saved vs not having free will and being saved? This just seems to further complicate the issue

No shotgun weddings allowed in heaven. And no forcible signing of covenants either.

Otherwise Satans accusations are legit.

 

[cv5]

The problem as I see it, is the limited atonement mob see salvation as being predicated on the death of Christ but salvation is predicated on belief in the risen Son, not His death. If Christ is not raised, our faith is in vain. 1Cor.15:4 The Cross, Christ's death, dealt with the problem of the barrier of sin which prevented everyone being able to approach God freely.

It is Christ's life that saves us from death, not His death, his death paved the way open for all but God has determined to only save those who believe. And why not, what sane person would want to be loved by someone who would not freely choose to love. Isn't it why we are so grateful because God the Father chose to love in spite of what we are?

but salvation is predicated on belief in the risen Son

Good call. Might I add that belief MUST OCCUR after being FIRST born of water as a sinner.

The pre-birth lottery heresy is patently unbiblical.

 

[Blain]

but salvation is predicated on belief in the risen Son

Good call. Might I add that belief MUST OCCUR after being FIRST born of water as a sinner.

The pre-birth lottery heresy is patently unbiblical.

Wouldn't water baptism be because you believed? See how it happened for me was I believed then got baptised not the other way around or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[Rufus]

Odd...

Then why was Jesus telling Nicodemus (who was a prominent Jew) that He was to die for the world, and not include what you just claimed?

Yeah...Jesus died for the entire world -- that he explicitly omitted from his prayer in Jn 17. How come He didn't pray for each and every person in the world w/o exception?

 

[Rufus]

On what basis? You do understand synonymous means "same"? The latter might flow from the other but they are not the same thing. Other things are equally plausible to flow like obligation, responsibilty or duty.

Do you understand what "virtually" means?

God KNOWS because of his eternal decrees. As explained on previous occasions, an excellent example of this can be seen in Ex 3-4. God predicts to Moses in chapter 3 that Pharaoh will not let his people go. Then in chapter 4, God reveals to Moses how he knows this, i.e. "I will harden his heart". Also see act 2:22-23 (and pay attention to the order of the words in v.23 -- that "plan" logically precedes "foreknowledge" in the sentence). Also see Act 4:27-29). And, of course, the well known evils that befell Joseph in the OT, for God's hand worked very actively in Joseph's life, etc.

 

[HeIsHere]

That line of pseudo philosophy is unbiblical to begin with.

God simply does not function according to the pattern that the super-determinists proclaim. Such as the pre-birth lottery. That kind of absurd and detestable concept simply doesn't exist as far as the Trinity is concerned.

Agree, what they really object to is the pseudo philosophy stripped of its window dressing and facade to make it sound biblical, I notice it is very triggering.

 

[Rufus]

What a load of rubbish you keep spewing out. You have been told time and time again that the will is set free by grace to believe. Believing does nothing more than agree with the truth presented and depends on it as being the reality.

The will, free or bound, creates NOTHING of itself.

You are saved so now your will is free from the bandage of sin. Do you claim to accomplish your own sanctification by means of your free will?

Strewth!!!!! Some people are as thick as three brick out houses.

And I have told you "time and time again" that God's grace that is actually bestowed upon people works only in ONE WAY, i.e. it always has a POSITIVE result or effect. God's grace is not "yes" and "no" gift, whereby in your scenario the vast majority of the recipients reject the gospel in spite of his gift of grace. God's gift of grace in the bible always results in positive outcomes, never negative ones. Give me one biblical example to prove me wrong! You have ZERO biblical evidence to back up your absurd claim.

And your lame theology's stench rises out of 300 "brick out houses".

 

[HeIsHere]

The only condition is that God chose someone for salvation from His exceeding mercy and grace by His good pleasure.
Being God, He needs no justification beyond that. The good pleasure of His choice is His reason.

[Eph 1:5 KJV] 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Another thing I really find interesting (not really), is how believers are held to a higher moral standard of conduct than the god of Canons of Dort.