Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

That is true, yet there is also the Angel of the Lord so it seems to me that God can definitely relate to angels. It might also explain that angels are indeed created in the image and likeness of God, just not God the Son, but God the Spirit.

The Angel of Jehovah, when angels were living their lives before the creation of mankind?
He was to the angels, like Jesus is to man.
He became as one of them, for them to fully identify with, in learning about the Father.

Before man was created?
Created in God’s image?

God came to the angels in the form of the Angel of Jehovah.
He would be with the angels and interacted with them, just as Jesus did with men.
The Angel of Jehovah could tell the angels...
"To see me is to see the Father."

The Angel of Jehovah is God the Holy Spirit, who became as an angel.

Angels are spirits, and the Holy Spirit easily took on total identification with the angels as the Angel of Jehovah.

On the other hand.
Jesus could not come as an angel, because He is both fully man, and fully God.
Being "fully man" means He is soul, and Deity in union!


Here are a few passages found in the OT, showing the Lord God of Israel (later to become Jesus Christ) declaring He has a soul!

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. ​

Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.​

'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​

​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone ​

loving violence, his soul certainly hates." Psalm 11:5​

Jesus told us that God is not soul!

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24​

Therefore...

The Angel of Jehovah was God the Holy Spirit, manifested in bodily form as an angel.

Yes...​

grace and peace!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

These are the aspects of man that were corrupted in the fall.

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Be not overcome of evil,

but overcome evil with good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭

“Depart from evil,

and do good; Seek peace, and pursue it.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭34:14‬ ‭

“Let him eschew evil,

and do good; Let him seek peace, and ensue it.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or evil.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil;

cleave to that which is good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:9‬ ‭

“See that none render evil for evil unto any man;

but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When they are the fruit the corruptuon was the knowledge of good and evil it out man in tbat position of having to choose between good and evil either overcoming the evil with the good or being overtaken like cain was and becoming servants of sin rather than God

The fall didint make man inheriantly evil and incapable of doing good it gave then the inowledge of good and evil that was never meant for mankind to operate by . We were designed to just listen to Gods word and trust what he says rather than deciding ourselves between good and evil

 

[lrs68]

So, what does that have to do with 1Tim 2:7? I guess you are antisemitic, heh? Jews don't inhabit this earth any longer in your world, do they? Jews + Gentiles = all w/o exception. Whereas Gentiles + 0 Jews = all w/o distinction. You clearly want it both ways which proves the deceitfulness of your own heart.

I am a Jew

 

[lrs68]

It's not possible because man's choices are limited by his nature, just as God's choices are limited by His.

The difference is that God can set His Own choices based on His natural Will and can desire based upon Who He is. Man cannot.

 

[Cameron143]

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Be not overcome of evil,

but overcome evil with good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭

“Depart from evil,

and do good; Seek peace, and pursue it.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭34:14‬ ‭

“Let him eschew evil,

and do good; Let him seek peace, and ensue it.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or evil.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil;

cleave to that which is good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:9‬ ‭

“See that none render evil for evil unto any man;

but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When they are the fruit the corruptuon was the knowledge of good and evil it out man in tbat position of having to choose between good and evil either overcoming the evil with the good or being overtaken like cain was and becoming servants of sin rather than God

The fall didint make man inheriantly evil and incapable of doing good it gave then the inowledge of good and evil that was never meant for mankind to operate by . We were designed to just listen to Gods word and trust what he says rather than deciding ourselves between good and evil

I've never said man is inherently evil, but it is easy to see that something was corrupted in man after sin. Adam and Eve experienced shame and fear almost immediately and covered themselves and hid from God. Later, Cain experiences anger and commits murder and experiences depression as his countenance fell. None of this was present before sin.

 

[Jackson129]

You ducked Cam's question. So, you just confessed, have you, that YOU ARE an EVIL Christian? And to your mind, this isn't an oxymoron? I guess in your world, Christians are just as evil as non-believers?

What do you call it when a Christian sins? Does God find it less disgusting when we do?

 

[BillyBob]

The major Reformed interpretation takes the position that the word “all” in this context means “all kinds of people,” not every single individual, why do we say that? Because there are times in Scripture when “all” is used in the sense of “every single individual in the world”, but there are times which it isn’t used like that, but limited according to the context. Let’s look at a few verses, shall we? The portion we’re going to look at is in Titus 2. Here we see that Paul is telling Timothy to teach “sound doctrine.” Then we see him list types/groups of people:


2. Older men are to be sober-minded…


3. Older women likewise…


4. so train the young women to love their husbands and children


6. …urge the younger men


9. Slaves


11. For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all people,


12. training us to renounce ungodliness…


13. waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


14. who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


We see that Paul in verse 11 says that salvation has been brought for all people, but considering the context we can safely say that it means “all kinds of people,” since in the previous verses he was talking about kinds of people (men, women, slaves, etc..). We can reasonably say that what Paul is saying through “all people” is “all kinds of people,” (as we understand that in our individualistic society) just as those kinds whom he mentioned in the passing verses. Further, verse 14 makes it clear that God has redeemed “us” and that Jesus has purified for Himself a people, not all people, but a people.


What does this have to do with 1 Tim 2:4, anyway? Well, we see in verse 2 kinds of people (“kings and all who are in high positions”) being mentioned. What Paul was asking Timothy to do is pray for “all” people. How are we to understand the “all” here? Did Paul mean that Timothy should pray for every single person in the world? Surely we don’t think that’s the case, but we see that after Paul says that Timothy should pray for “all” people we see in verse 2 that Paul specifies, limits, clarifies, narrows his use of the word “all,” by saying that Timothy should pray “for kings and all who are in high position.” So what Paul is saying to Timothy is this: Timothy, do not only pray for your brethren, who are those that are despised in the world, who are persecuted, who are hated, but don’t forget Jesus’ commandment to love our enemies. So, Timothy also pray for your persecutors that they may come to the knowledge of God, who desires to save all kinds of people, so that we may lead a peaceful life. Then it follows logically that if we accept the contextual meaning of “all” to mean “all kinds of” then the “all” in verse 6 also means that Jesus was a ransom for all kinds of people. Revelation 5:9 says that Jesus with His blood has ransomed a people for God from every tribe, language, people and nation; thus, Jesus has ransomed every kind of people, kings and servants, free and slaves, male and female, Jew and Gentile. Please note in Revelation 5:9, it says that our Glorious Lord ransomed with his blood a people for God from every tribe, tongue, people and nation, a specific people, not the tribes, tongues, peoples and nations.

I found this from https://www.thecalvinist.net/post/1-Timothy-2:4-Titus-2:11-desires-All-People-To-Be-Saved
I think it may shed some light on the subject.

You are correct, the word all can certainly have different meanings in scripture depending on the message being taught.
Even the Great Commission Matt: 28:18-20 speaks of taking God's word to all nations, [the good, bad, and ugly]. However, we must understand that not all will believe.
The Spirit will only draw those chosen by God, not all!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Therefore, I believe the purpose of 1 Timothy 2:4 is to tell Timothy that Christ came to save people from every nation, - both Jew and Gentile.
Just as you, I would like to hear the view of others concerning this, simply because I cannot see how God would desire all to be saved when many will perish...

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Paul qualified what HE meant by "all". So...unless you think that this world consists of only Gentiles (due to an antisemitic attitude, perhaps?), could you reason with your "human reasoning" that "all" means all
w/o exception. But for the rest of us who live in the real world and understand the inherent limitations behind a qualified statement, then we rightfully understand him as saying "all" w/o distinction.

1 Timothy 2:

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Under your reasoning, the Lord Jesus Christ did not give Himself a ransom for the Jews??? ... who's the one with the "antisemitic attitude"?
.

 

[Genez]

It's not possible because man's choices are limited by his nature, just as God's choices are limited by His.

Now this applies to all believers....
Not just Rufus.
Myself, included.

Until the Holy Spirit is able to get you to get enough sound doctrine under your belt... (into your human spirit)
You will remain as a slave to your old nature in the way of doing things as you had done in the past.
Old defense mechanisms must be dropped if Christ is to be revealed in you.

That includes stubbornness being used as a stabilizer when one is not knowing the truth as it is to be known.

God's enabling power of Grace, is administered by God to men, as God's means for breaking men away from being limited to the fallen nature.

Grace changes how our nature functions.

When given the Gospel?
Grace locks up the power of the depravity of the flesh over a man's soul, and for that moment, as God has determined,
will have that man's soul to decide what it wants to believe, free from the effects of the sin nature.

Calvinism keeps presenting man's hopeless state.. Being impossible to believe.
And neglects the purpose for God's power (grace) being there in the first place.

Grace enables the unable.
Grace does not drag us into making us believe.
But rather...
Grace drags us to where we need to be, to see what God wants us to choose about, while grace is enabling us to choose freely.
Freely!
That is why everybody who refuses to find Christ as their Savior will be held accountable and punished.
If they had no choice but to reject? Then God's judgment would be unjust and cruel.
It was their choice not to believe the one who had been drawing them.



In Christ.

 

[cv5]

With their incurably wicked heart

Wow the super-determinist love for mankind on display once again.

 

[Genez]

I've always seen it as this. The same evil it takes to kill someone is the same evil it takes to steal a bike. They are just different manifestations of it.

Sin is the wrongful desire to steal that bike.

Evil is sin's lawyer and defends sin's right to do so.

 

[Jackson129]

Sin is the wrongful desire to steal that bike.

Evil is sin's lawyer and defends sin's right to do so.

When it comes to people defining evil and good its along the lines of philosophy. Many books have been written about what it means or dosent mean. So I try to look at it from God's point of view. What does God think is evil? Does God think sin is evil. I'd say yes. How about you? Do you think God sees sin as evil?

 

[Genez]

Yeah...well...this Dark World is just filled with "real men", isn't it?

Also, Gen 2:7 does not say what you claim! The text doesn't say God created a soul out of nothing. Rather, it says that God "breathed into the nostrils of man the breath of life". Nothing in the text that says God created the soul ex nihilo..

You chopped out the context.
You jumped to Genesis 2:7.
What was it that the Lord breathed into the nostrils?
It was what God had created out from nothing in Genesis 1:27!

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." ​

​

It was the souls that God created that are either a male, or a female soul.

And... the Hebrew does not say simply 'breath of life.'
The Hebrew actually states.. "breath of lives!" (plural)

"God "breathed into the nostrils of man the breath of lives"​

Why plurality?

Adam was created spiritually alive.
God breathed into Adam's nostrils both soul and a human spirit!

Take a peek..

Why does Genesis 2:7 read חַיִּ֑ים plural rather than singular



.

 

[Genez]

The angels have no bodies, yet they sinned.

Angels definitely have bodies! They live in a realm where they can materialize and dematerialize.
But, real bodies, just the same!

Angels can even eat human food.

Read Genesis 18 and see that for yourself.
The angels appeared as men in their materialized state and ate human food!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2018&version=NIV

grace and peace ......

 

[Genez]

When it comes to people defining evil and good its along the lines of philosophy. Many books have been written about what it means or dosent mean. So I try to look at it from God's point of view. What does God think is evil? Does God think sin is evil. I'd say yes. How about you? Do you think God sees sin as evil?

We are to confess our sins. (1 John 1:9)
Not told to confess our evil.

Evil requires a change in one's thinking (repentance) to be made free of it.
That requires learning sound doctrine in order to know what to think in regard to the evil of our natural choice.

The following passage speaks of evil, not simply sin.

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death" (Proverbs 14:12​

​

"Seems right?" = how one thinks about a matter.

I may lust in my heart when thinking about what I would like to do with a pretty woman.
That is sin.

Rationalizing and convincing myself that it is perfectly fine to think such thoughts and others should also?
That is evil.

Evil can become a mental guardian to keep a sin alive and active.
Evil can be what we wrongly choose to believe to give an excuse for a sin.

Also....
In this world?
Evil can be anything that produces what we refer to as "a bad thing, or bad effect."
Like a disaster.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve, were living in a perfect environment.
They had no need to have a concept of good and bad/evil.
For anything they did, they freely did as they pleased.

The only thing forbidden them was the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Rufus]

The Angel of Jehovah, when angels were living their lives before the creation of mankind?
He was to the angels, like Jesus is to man.
He became as one of them, for them to fully identify with, in learning about the Father.

Before man was created?
Created in God’s image?

God came to the angels in the form of the Angel of Jehovah.
He would be with the angels and interacted with them, just as Jesus did with men.
The Angel of Jehovah could tell the angels...
"To see me is to see the Father."

The Angel of Jehovah is God the Holy Spirit, who became as an angel.

Angels are spirits, and the Holy Spirit easily took on total identification with the angels as the Angel of Jehovah.

On the other hand.
Jesus could not come as an angel, because He is both fully man, and fully God.
Being "fully man" means He is soul, and Deity in union!


Here are a few passages found in the OT, showing the Lord God of Israel (later to become Jesus Christ) declaring He has a soul!

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. ​

Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.​

'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​

​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone ​

loving violence, his soul certainly hates." Psalm 11:5​

Jesus told us that God is not soul!

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24​

Therefore...

The Angel of Jehovah was God the Holy Spirit, manifested in bodily form as an angel.

Yes...​

grace and peace!

You're quite the spinner of tall tales, aren't you?

 

[studier]

The major Reformed interpretation takes the position that the word “all” in this context means “all kinds of people,” not every single individual, why do we say that? Because there are times in Scripture when “all” is used in the sense of “every single individual in the world”, but there are times which it isn’t used like that, but limited according to the context. Let’s look at a few verses, shall we? The portion we’re going to look at is in Titus 2. Here we see that Paul is telling Timothy to teach “sound doctrine.” Then we see him list types/groups of people:


2. Older men are to be sober-minded…


3. Older women likewise…


4. so train the young women to love their husbands and children


6. …urge the younger men


9. Slaves


11. For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all people,


12. training us to renounce ungodliness…


13. waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


14. who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


We see that Paul in verse 11 says that salvation has been brought for all people, but considering the context we can safely say that it means “all kinds of people,” since in the previous verses he was talking about kinds of people (men, women, slaves, etc..). We can reasonably say that what Paul is saying through “all people” is “all kinds of people,” (as we understand that in our individualistic society) just as those kinds whom he mentioned in the passing verses. Further, verse 14 makes it clear that God has redeemed “us” and that Jesus has purified for Himself a people, not all people, but a people.

And the non-Reformed obviously view this differently:

• In Titus2:1-10 Paul is commanding Titus to speak what is proper for accurate teaching/doctrine to Christians - male, female, older, younger, and then slaves.
  • In Titus2:5 & 10 Paul's concern is that he wants God's Word not to be blasphemed and our Savior God's teaching to be attractive in all things. This is external witness to the beauty and effectiveness of God's teaching His people who therefrom exhibit good character.
• In Titus2:11 Paul begins with the word, "gar" so Paul is explaining the reason for what he's said in the previous verses. The reason he wants God's people to adorn God's teaching is: "the saving grace of God for all men/people appeared"
  • It's purely interpretive to make all [kinds] of Christians in 1:1-10 = all [kinds] of people in 1:1-11.
    • Not all kinds of Christians are discussed.
    • We could just as easily say all male and female including slaves [or free] are identified in 1:1-10 which pretty much includes all people and carry this into 1:11
    • What seems to be clear is that Paul wants all Christians to adorn God the Savior's teaching to be attractive to all people thereby making God's salvation attractive to all people because God revealed His saving grace for all people.
  • The Greek word order favors the following NET translation over the KJV:
    • NET Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
    • NKJ Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
• From there on, the use of "us" and "our" can include all people from whom come those who believe.

1Tim2 later.

 

[cv5]

Angels definitely have bodies! They live in a realm where they can materialize and dematerialize.
But, real bodies, just the same!

Angels can even eat human food.

Read Genesis 18 and see that for yourself.
The angels appeared as men in their materialized state and ate human food!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2018&version=NIV

grace and peace ......

@Rufus striking out again eh? Not surprising. Not even a little bit.

 

[Rufus]

Angels definitely have bodies! They live in a realm where they can materialize and dematerialize.
But, real bodies, just the same!

Angels can even eat human food.

Read Genesis 18 and see that for yourself.
The angels appeared as men in their materialized state and ate human food!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2018&version=NIV

grace and peace ......

But not all angels could do that. Angels are first and foremost spirits (Ps 104:4; Heb 1:14). And did the demons that requested Christ to send them into a herd of swine have bodies? Or when Satan entered Judas, he did so sporting a body?