Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

The human soul does not have molecules.
The soul is not like the fallen body.

The soul of man was created 'out from nothing' by God.
Created in His image = Bara in the Hebrew.

​

"So God created [bara] man in his own image, in the image of God he created [bara] him; ​

male and female he created [bara] them." (Genesis 1:27)​

God called the created soul 'man' before a body was given!
What God created directly in His image could not be created evil.
The soul is not inherently evil.
It's the fallen body that enslaves its soul into evil.

God is immaterial and invisible.
Likewise... The human soul is immaterial and invisible.
God has volition. The human soul has volition.

It's the fallen body that corrupts the soul's thinking.

"The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit ​

is capacity for life and peace." Rom 8:6​

Remove that body?
Leave the soul on its own?

That same soul would be free of the flesh's desires.
That is why it says we have been crucified with Christ!
We are to no longer walk after the flesh.

The human soul had been imprisoned inside a fallen body it was born into.
A soul is not inherently blind.
But, put the soul in a body with blind eyes?
That soul will live in blindness.

It is the soul that God saved.
Not our bodies!

For you were like sheep going astray, but you have now returned ​

to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. 1 Peter 2:25​

That is why we will be given a new body when our soul enters into eternal life with God.

In the meanwhile?
God's power of grace will handle our fallen flesh problem if we maintain humility in our soul.

God gives grace to the humble. (James 4:6)

But, not to a boastful braggart.

But he gives us greater grace. That is why Scripture says: ​

“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”​

​

Grace is real power provided by God.
Power to make an unworthy person to function as what is worthy in His sight.
That grace includes saved warriors who enter into battle.
There is a difference in how the warrior fights.

We tend to carry over our old survival thinking when first saved.
Over time, as we learn more and more sound doctrine, we must decrease so that God's power can increase.

"But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' ​

Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."​

2 Corinthians 12:9​

Real men will admit their weakness to God, so that God can transform them into grace power that counts.

In Christ.

Yeah...well...this Dark World is just filled with "real men", isn't it?

Also, Gen 2:7 does not say what you claim! The text doesn't say God created a soul out of nothing. Rather, it says that God "breathed into the nostrils of man the breath of life". Nothing in the text that says God created the soul ex nihilo.

This "breath of life" came directly out of God and was very likely his Holy Spirit who just happens to be the Spirit of Life (Rom 8:2) (What a coincidence, heh?) And this makes sense since A&E DIED spiritually on the day the sinned, and death logically presupposes antecedent life.

Did Jesus create souls ex nihilo when he breathed the Spirit unto his disciples (Jn 20:22)

And there's nothing inherently sinful about man's human body. Man's body (flesh, bones, sinew, blood, etc.) is not inherently evil. If it were then Jesus came into this world intrinsically evil. The term "flesh" in scripture is a convenient metaphor for "human nature" since man was created here below on the physical earth from the physical earth, whereas the Spirit is from above, is invisible and is eternal. The metaphor is a contrasting one. Besides, if the human body is inherently evil, why are God's image-bearers going to receive another body at the Resurrection just like Jesus' for all eternity?

There's not one text in scripture that explicitly teaches that the human body is inherently evil. However, after the Fall, sin did have a disastrous effect on both the material (body) and immaterial (mind, soul, heart) parts of man. No part of humanity escaped escaped the ruinous and corrupting effects of sin.

 

[Rufus]

So you are equating evil to sinning? Christians still sin.

But can a true Christian live a sinful lifestyle? Can he continue in sin the way unbelievers do?

And I don't understand your question: You asked me to define "evil". And I have. It's the total deprivation of Good. Good or Goodness, conversely, is real -- it is a thing unto itself, since God is eternal and, therefore, eternally Good. Evil never existed in eternity past prior to the creation, nor will it exist in the eternal New Order. And again, we can see this truth expressed in Natural Revelation. Shadows or darkness are not things in and of themselves; for we would never know the existence of either if it weren't for Light. Likewise, we would not know Evil apart from the eternal existence of Good. In order to know what is Evil, we MUST first know what is Good.

 

[Rufus]

Yes Christians still sin. As long as we got this meat suit stuck to our soul it is not only possible but assurd. Offenses will come.

You ducked Cam's question. So, you just confessed, have you, that YOU ARE an EVIL Christian? And to your mind, this isn't an oxymoron? I guess in your world, Christians are just as evil as non-believers?

 

[BillyBob]

This must mean that the all people in 1 Timothy 2:4 cannot mean every single human ever, because we know not everyone is saved, and we also know that God's will cannot be thwarted.

Acts 13:48 says 'those who were ordained believed'.
Isaiah 46:10 says ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’ Job echoes the same, as does Ephesians 1:11

All these truths put together, I want to know what 1 Timothy 2:4 means.

Whatever it means, I am just grateful to God He has been gracious to me and saved me. I don't have all the answers yet but I am thankful for grace. Not me, but Him

This is a very good question.
I'm just surprised that no one has come back to you with “all means every single person who has ever been born”.
However, I believe that scripture must agree with scripture. Therefore, I believe the purpose of 1 Timothy 2:4 is to tell Timothy that Christ came to save people from every nation, - both Jew and Gentile.
Just as you, I would like to hear the view of others concerning this, simply because I cannot see how God would desire all to be saved when many will perish...

 

[Rufus]

The mind of the flesh does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. No IF there. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. No "ifs" in that statement either! It PLAINLY says the mind of the flesh cannot submit. Seriously. What is wrong with people??? If it can't, it is unable. Praise the Lord for enabling us.

AMEN to that, sister! I praise God every day that He sent his True and Faithful Servant to "force" me to attend the Great Banquet (Lk 14), instead of leaving me to the desires of my own evil heart that would also make up all kinds of lame excuses to not attend.

 

[Rufus]

This is a very good question.
I'm just surprised that no one has come back to you with “all means every single person who has ever been born”.
However, I believe that scripture must agree with scripture. Therefore, I believe the purpose of 1 Timothy 2:4 is to tell Timothy that Christ came to save people from every nation, - both Jew and Gentile.
Just as you, I would like to hear the view of others concerning this, simply because I cannot see how God would desire all to be saved when many will perish...

The context of 1Tim 2:4 clearly debunks the interpretation that Paul meant "all" w/o exception. Rather the slightly larger context of v.7 limits the extent of "all" to mean "all" w/o distinction, since Paul was sent to the Gentiles and Gentiles alone do not comprise the entire world -- unless one is antisemitic, I suppose.

 

[lrs68]

This is a very good question.
I'm just surprised that no one has come back to you with “all means every single person who has ever been born”.
However, I believe that scripture must agree with scripture. Therefore, I believe the purpose of 1 Timothy 2:4 is to tell Timothy that Christ came to save people from every nation, - both Jew and Gentile.
Just as you, I would like to hear the view of others concerning this, simply because I cannot see how God would desire all to be saved when many will perish...

When we [people that are created] define what something Eternal [(God)] should represent it's truly impossible we could ever understand the things about God fully and completely.

So here's a question:

Why is it not possible for an Eternal God to {DESIRE} all people to be saved but [His Will] is to allow free will once a person has knowledge?

Because every answer given in this thread ultimately is human reasoning. None of it from the point of Eternal God.

 

[lrs68]

The context of 1Tim 2:4 clearly debunks the interpretation that Paul meant "all" w/o exception. Rather the slightly larger context of v.7 limits the extent of "all" to mean "all" w/o distinction, since Paul was sent to the Gentiles and Gentiles alone do not comprise the entire world -- unless one is antisemitic, I suppose.

^
Perfect example of human reasoning and not Eternal God thinking.

 

[BillyBob]

When we [people that are created] define what something Eternal [(God)] should represent it's truly impossible we could ever understand the things about God fully and completely.

So here's a question:

Why is it not possible for an Eternal God to {DESIRE} all people to be saved but [His Will] is to allow free will once a person has knowledge?

Because every answer given in this thread ultimately is human reasoning. None of it from the point of Eternal God.

Are you suggesting that John 15:16 applies to all men?

 

[Rufus]

What would happen if God could take the influence of the flesh out of your equation?

Take it out, and leave only God and your soul, no flesh?

Grace with its unlimited power does just that while God presents the Gospel.

Grace like that make souls free to believe, and leaves those who choose to reject the truth to be totally without excuse.

The angels have no bodies, yet they sinned. But it has never entered your closed mind that what caused Lucifer to sin is the same thing that caused A&E to sin -- and it wasn't their physical bodies. Therefore, it must have been something INTERNAL and INVISIBLE that accounted for their sin!

You remind of the Pharisees who placed great emphasis on the visible and physical. They were really big into cleaning the outside of their cups, yet what did Jesus tell them in his sharp rebuke? I'll let you research that answer out...if you choose to.

 

[Rufus]

^
Perfect example of human reasoning and not Eternal God thinking.

What part of 1Tim 2: 7 don't you get!? You hypocritical FWers are always speaking out of both sides of your mouth! In one breath, you insist that Paul meant in the passage every single human being on the planet w/o exception; but then turn right around and conveniently ignore Paul's qualifying remarks in the verse. Paul qualified what HE meant by "all". So...unless you think that this world consists of only Gentiles (due to an antisemitic attitude, perhaps?), could you reason with your "human reasoning" that "all" means all
w/o exception. But for the rest of us who live in the real world and understand the inherent limitations behind a qualified statement, then we rightfully understand him as saying "all" w/o distinction.

Maybe you should just take your magic marker and blacken out beyond recognition v.7 in your bible.

 

[lrs68]

Are you suggesting that John 15:16 applies to all men?

He was talking to His Disciples and everyone knows that. But you're the first one I have ever seen trying to misuse it for something else.

 

[lrs68]

What part of 1Tim 2: 7 don't you get!? You hypocritical FWers are always speaking out of both sides of your mouth! In one breath, you insist that Paul meant in the passage every single human being on the planet w/o exception; but then turn right around and conveniently ignore Paul's qualifying remarks in the verse. Paul qualified what HE meant by "all". So...unless you think that this world consists of only Gentiles (due to an antisemitic attitude, perhaps?), could you reason with your "human reasoning" that "all" means all
w/o exception. But for the rest of us who live in the real world and understand the inherent limitations behind a qualified statement, then we rightfully understand him as saying "all" w/o distinction.

Maybe you should just take your magic marker and blacken out beyond recognition v.7 in your bible.

He didn't become a Preacher until he became a believer. But nice try and thanks for proving more proof to human reasoning.

 

[Rufus]

It's the mind that attempt to come up with justification of the body's sin and the heart is what is desperate to believe its legitimacy.

But wait a darn second here: Isn't the body in total control of the person? Yet, Jesus said that ALL sin proceeds from the HEART not the body! Did God promise in the New Covenant to give his covenant people a new body or a new heart in this age? Was God totally confused? He didn't know what the root cause of all sin is???

 

[Rufus]

He didn't become a Preacher until he became a believer. But nice try and thanks for proving more proof to human reasoning.

So, what does that have to do with 1Tim 2:7? I guess you are antisemitic, heh? Jews don't inhabit this earth any longer in your world, do they? Jews + Gentiles = all w/o exception. Whereas Gentiles + 0 Jews = all w/o distinction. You clearly want it both ways which proves the deceitfulness of your own heart.

 

[Rufus]

Despite what the un-Biblical free will doctrine promoters put forth, the natural man does not have everything he needs in order to grow the good fruit of faith from the stony ground of his incurably wicked heart which is opposed to the things of God, and he cannot change himself, being a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness as a slave to sin, being inherently hostile in his mind toward God, and blinded to the truth while under the power of the evil one. Those who promote the free will of the natural man reject a plethora of Biblical truths. Praise God if Jesus has set you free!

You mean it's not with the FLESH that man believes??? It seems to me that if FWers are right, God should have just skinned everyone alive in this age and been done with it. Then we could all be sinless right here and right now by waking around as puffs of sinless vapor.

 

[Komentaja]

This is a very good question.
I'm just surprised that no one has come back to you with “all means every single person who has ever been born”.
However, I believe that scripture must agree with scripture. Therefore, I believe the purpose of 1 Timothy 2:4 is to tell Timothy that Christ came to save people from every nation, - both Jew and Gentile.
Just as you, I would like to hear the view of others concerning this, simply because I cannot see how God would desire all to be saved when many will perish...

The major Reformed interpretation takes the position that the word “all” in this context means “all kinds of people,” not every single individual, why do we say that? Because there are times in Scripture when “all” is used in the sense of “every single individual in the world”, but there are times which it isn’t used like that, but limited according to the context. Let’s look at a few verses, shall we? The portion we’re going to look at is in Titus 2. Here we see that Paul is telling Timothy to teach “sound doctrine.” Then we see him list types/groups of people:


2. Older men are to be sober-minded…


3. Older women likewise…


4. so train the young women to love their husbands and children


6. …urge the younger men


9. Slaves


11. For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all people,


12. training us to renounce ungodliness…


13. waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


14. who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


We see that Paul in verse 11 says that salvation has been brought for all people, but considering the context we can safely say that it means “all kinds of people,” since in the previous verses he was talking about kinds of people (men, women, slaves, etc..). We can reasonably say that what Paul is saying through “all people” is “all kinds of people,” (as we understand that in our individualistic society) just as those kinds whom he mentioned in the passing verses. Further, verse 14 makes it clear that God has redeemed “us” and that Jesus has purified for Himself a people, not all people, but a people.


What does this have to do with 1 Tim 2:4, anyway? Well, we see in verse 2 kinds of people (“kings and all who are in high positions”) being mentioned. What Paul was asking Timothy to do is pray for “all” people. How are we to understand the “all” here? Did Paul mean that Timothy should pray for every single person in the world? Surely we don’t think that’s the case, but we see that after Paul says that Timothy should pray for “all” people we see in verse 2 that Paul specifies, limits, clarifies, narrows his use of the word “all,” by saying that Timothy should pray “for kings and all who are in high position.” So what Paul is saying to Timothy is this: Timothy, do not only pray for your brethren, who are those that are despised in the world, who are persecuted, who are hated, but don’t forget Jesus’ commandment to love our enemies. So, Timothy also pray for your persecutors that they may come to the knowledge of God, who desires to save all kinds of people, so that we may lead a peaceful life. Then it follows logically that if we accept the contextual meaning of “all” to mean “all kinds of” then the “all” in verse 6 also means that Jesus was a ransom for all kinds of people. Revelation 5:9 says that Jesus with His blood has ransomed a people for God from every tribe, language, people and nation; thus, Jesus has ransomed every kind of people, kings and servants, free and slaves, male and female, Jew and Gentile. Please note in Revelation 5:9, it says that our Glorious Lord ransomed with his blood a people for God from every tribe, tongue, people and nation, a specific people, not the tribes, tongues, peoples and nations.

I found this from https://www.thecalvinist.net/post/1-Timothy-2:4-Titus-2:11-desires-All-People-To-Be-Saved
I think it may shed some light on the subject.

 

[Aaron56]

This topic requires wisdom. There are many clues in scripture that can lead us to understanding.

"Who can resist God?"

The Jews can, and their fathers, listening to Stephen, for example:

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

The people who ignore the higher powers established by God for another...

"Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

Before the corruption of sin, the default setting of man was to follow the Spirit of God. Corruption, on its face, implies a state of purity. Yet, because of sin, that purity was lost for all people.

Also consider that Adam remained a son of God after his fall into sin. (Luke 3: "..Adam, the son of God.") God also kept Adam around for 930 years, presumably hundreds of years after his sin. This was to preserve the man, for a time, who was instructed directly by God about God's ways and life.

This is the benefit of salvation in Christ: an incorruptible life that is eternal, which was God's original intent with mankind.

So yes, man has the right to resist God. But, when they do not resist God, they will receive Him. But men do not receive Christ in their souls or flesh, they receive Him in their spirit. So it is not the will of the flesh that saves men. It is the will of the spirit of man.

Now, this spirit was given to all men by God. This is why no one may brag that they have received God in their own efforts: it's only by the spirit of God in them, placed there by God, that they can agree with God.

When man dies, his spirit returns to God who gave it.

"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it."

This same Spirit was hovering over the face of the waters in Genesis 1:

"And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."

So, this is not some lesser endowment of God. This is the actual substance of God Himself: the One present at creation.

This is one of the reasons the word of God, that comes from Him directly, is likened unto water: water finds a way. Given enough time it will erode the hardest rock formation.

However, like water, man may damn up to prevent the flow of God's spirit in him. Man CAN resist God (as shown above). Yet, when man stops resisting God, the spirit of God in man will flow unimpeded. It's not as if ending the resistance of God saves man. No, man cannot save himself. He may only let God's Spirit have His way in himself. What God promises is that "whosoever will" receives eternal life in Christ.

Lastly, God has already chosen man to be His heirs (indeed co-heirs with Christ). Chosen, in scripture, should be considered "as one chosen for the work" not simply as one who is saved to go to heaven.

But again, man may resist God. The Bible even says so. Paul, as Saul, did. The Jews did. And others.
And certainly may God force someone to convert to belief against his or her will? Certainly. We are all His creation. God promised to Ananias to show Saul what he must suffer to carry God's grace:

“This man is My chosen instrument to carry My name before the Gentiles and their kings, and before the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

In this cases the issue is not about salvation to go to heaven but salvation from the corruption in the world SO THAT he or she may be employed in God's service to bring His word into the earth to others.

If we understood these things, our message to the world would change: we would have fewer debates with atheists (they don't exist) or agnostics (they are simply resisting God like Saul did). We would be more inclined to say things like "You know what to do (stop resisting God) but you refuse." and then walk away.

Evangelism would simply be showing the love of God to others ("..do the work of an evangelist...") and not some separate ministry.

The other day I had my first kidney stone (I don't recommend one!) and one of my spiritual sons and his family were staying at our home in Ohio. He wanted to pray for my healing. So, as we were giving thanks to the Lord for the meal we were about to eat I asked him to pray for my healing. His wife and children were present. We all bowed and prayed. Afterward, when the children were done eating and had dismissed themselves from the table I said to my son and his wife "Asking the Lord for healing should be as common as giving thanks for the food we eat. All good things come from the Lord." My point was "healing ministries" are only important to the unbelievers and certainly not so much so for those who live by the Word of God as their culture.

There is much more I could say about this. For understanding, we must start in the mind of God before creation and then continue from the beginning of man (in time) through man after the fall, to man after the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Rufus]

Question from me:

1 Timothy 2:4
God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth

How are these two reconciled? God wants all to be saved, yet it must be God that grants them repentance leading them to the knowledge of the truth?

We're back to that tension I mentioned to you recently -- the tension between God's sovereign will and man's responsibility. Man SHOULD obey God, just like Adam should have obeyed! All Adam's progeny are morally culpable precisely because God gave the human race the perfect Representative -- the perfect Federal Head. "Perfect" because unlike us Adam was not under the controlling influence of a sin nature. And because unlike us Adam had empirical evidence for God's existence. While it was not God's desire for Adam to sin, yet at the same time we should remember that God did decree Satan's fall and also decreed that he be banished from heaven to this planet, clearly suggesting that God decreed the Fall. And why did God decree the Fall? I answered this some time back using Augustine's short answer as a springboard for the post: "God thought it better for man to have the knowledge of Good and Evil rather than not have it". I personally would have worded this a little bit differently since Augustine omitted God's glory. I would say something along these lines:

God thought He would be more glorified and that it would be better for man if he had the knowledge of Good and Evil. And in this precise order! This kind of statement covers all -- The Creator and the Creation.

 

[Rufus]

When we [people that are created] define what something Eternal [(God)] should represent it's truly impossible we could ever understand the things about God fully and completely.

So here's a question:

Why is it not possible for an Eternal God to {DESIRE} all people to be saved but [His Will] is to allow free will once a person has knowledge?

Because every answer given in this thread ultimately is human reasoning. None of it from the point of Eternal God.

It's not possible because man's choices are limited by his nature, just as God's choices are limited by His.